So what has the alliance done thats so bad blizzard?

[Trassk]

It's hard to tell what your position is on Orcs. You do have a habit of making topics about how you dislike the turn the Orcs have taken and that it's against their own noble savage esque ways.

which it is. I'd expect an alliance fan to only see orcs in the worst possible way and forget how there culture came from a noble yet savage tribesman based people, some tribes having more rough traditions then other tribes, but they did come from groups that respected things such as the elements, the ancestors and the hunt.
That is what an orc is, instead of the ones twisted into being puppets of demons and warlocks. Its not a glass eyed view rather an example of what orcs can be at there best.

[Deleted]

I agree, this favourtism is getting a tad old. I have both horde and alliance characters and it annoys me they are portrayed as weaklings when in lore they stronger. Numerically and technologically.

[Scummer]

which it is. I'd expect an alliance fan to only see orcs in the worst possible way and forget how there culture came from a noble yet savage tribesman based people, some tribes having more rough traditions then other tribes, but they did come from groups that respected things such as the elements, the ancestors and the hunt.

Maybe I've lost the plot a little . But the point that was made about Orcs is that while they aren't inherently bad, their own culture of at it's core does revolve around the use of violence due to fact a lot of their society is based upon fighting prowess.

[ambigiouslynamed]

orcs fighting for freedom? what a load of shit. orcs blow up their own planet then come to azeroth and try to claim it for their own and people still have the audacity to claim orcs are the poor wittle slaves, attempted genocide of humans and dwarves and enslavement of red dragons be damed

[Argent Champion]

Your entire post pretty much comes across with pure alliance one side bias opinion. Obviously as alliance you would only want to see the bad elements in the horde and ignore anything else. The horde were once the bad guys in the past, but overcame it. Now atm ones like the orcs are misguided by a bad leader, who they will kill or take care of come the end of mists, showing Garrosh's way for the horde is not the hordes future.

The horde has it's good elements. But I'm not trying to prove they are good here so I neglected to include that part as it'd only make my already long post longer and you seem to already be aware of their positive elements.

And there are many orcs who are in favor of Garrosh lets not forget. For every orc that's like Saurfang, theres another who's like Garrosh.

I know you think using other mmo examples like warhammer online give you reason to think the horde is bad, but that itself is wrong in its extension, as anyone who can play both sides of either horde or alliance could tell you, The alliance wants to wipe out the horde, not just the bad elements of the horde but all of it, the good along with the bad. So trying to claim the alliance are the good guys, even come mists they are as much responsible for the crisis on pandaria as the horde, its about time you buck up and stop using rose tinted glasses.

I don't recall mentioning Warhammer online. Never played it. If the Alliance wanted the horde wiped out, they would have done it when the entire orcish race was living in their camps back before Thrall was warchief.

excuse me unless you've just been intentionally ignoring what I've said thus far then you don't really know anything about my current take on the orcs.

As I say, the orcs are misguided by a douchebag leader that pushed there culture deeper into a state of war. The problem with orcs is unless they have someone tell them how to act they just follow whatever there current leader tells them... actually that's pretty much what humans do as well, or did you forget the culling of stratholme?

You mean the Culling of Stratholme where a large percentage of the Alliance soldiers refused to follow Arthas into the city to kill people?

Uther: "Have you lost your mind Arthas?!"
Jaina: "I'm sorry, Arthas, I can't watch you do this."

[Gouky]

gief EVIL faction I would like to slaughter ALLY/Horde pussies.

Quote from Cata first day lvling, from fellow horde " Leave Ally alone, they just trying to lvl up "

Faction Leaders. Silvana. DK Arthas, Ilidan, Belf Guy.

[Dreknar20]

You mean the Culling of Stratholme where a large percentage of the Alliance soldiers refused to follow Arthas into the city to kill people?

Uther: "Have you lost your mind Arthas?!"
Jaina: "I'm sorry, Arthas, I can't watch you do this."

large percentage?
Yeah cause Arthas killed the 100k+ population of an entire city all with his own 2 hands.
Its not like he had his own army in tow with him.

---------- Post added 2012-07-08 at 12:56 PM ----------

The Horde are generally the badguys. And why shouldn't they be? Look who they are. Orcs, Minotaurs, Ghouls, Trolls and arrogant, cruel elves. All the classically evil races. Admittedly nobody's perfect but the Alliance have all the typical heroic races. Not only that but I see the story as similar to Native Americans and their struggles.
.

dude wtf?
Do you realize that this is Warcraft? This is not Lord of the Rings. Stop being blinded by the old traditional archtype that fantasy use to show orcs as.
Warcraft was the first fantasy to actually show Orcs as just normal people, well since Warcraft 3, instead of just the ugly mindless minions of some villian.

[Deleted]

dude wtf?
Do you realize that this is Warcraft? This is not Lord of the Rings. Stop being blinded by the old traditional archtype that fantasy use to show orcs as.
Warcraft was the first fantasy to actually show Orcs as just normal people, well since Warcraft 3, instead of just the ugly mindless minions of some villian.

First? I doubt it. Also, the funny thing is that all the Horde are the mindless millions of some villain in Pandaria and arguably Cataclysm.

[Every Pwny]

Nothing. But this has been the problem throughout Cataclysm as well. The horde do a lot of bad things, the alliance do pretty much nothing. The alliance received no real story or personality in cataclysm, there were just the generic paper-cutout good guys dealing with horde aggression. There was no alliance story in Cataclysm just a bunch of parody zones and zones where you didn't even know the horde existed (take Feralas you actually didn't even talk about the horde once in the whole zone, even in Ashenvale less than half the quests really dealt with the horde the rest were cleansing quests, finding corruption and dealing with elements).

I mean the alliance don't even really have to do anything "bad" for the sake of being equal with the horde. Asking for that is the same as alliance players asking for a win to be equal with the horde. The horde want to win by any means necessary, even if it's less than honorable. Personally if it cost the alliance a few good points for them to develop a decent story I'm all for it. I'm just tired of the alliance being so good and just dealing with horde aggression, I want to see them get angry and start to develop a soul. I see it a much larger problem with Blizzard's ability to write actually write a decent alliance story than horde being seen as evil (hey at least they are getting a story). It just hasn't been shades of grey in a long time.

[Deleted]

The issue is Pwny, that Taurajo showed the Alliance isn't allowed to make "grey" or "aggressive" actions, or it spends the entire expansion pack being used to justify every single one of the Horde's actions who are just trying to live in a world with the evil, baby eating, skin wearing, Alliance monsters.

[Argent Champion]

Don't you folks see?

What draws people to the Alliance? White castles and noble knights in shining armor.

What draws people to the horde? Badassery. And Blood elves.

Nobody joins the horde so they have a clear concience.

I think blizzard knows this and just might be embracing it.

large percentage?
Yeah cause Arthas killed the 100k+ population of an entire city all with his own 2 hands.
Its not like he had his own army in tow with him.

I said "large percentage" and made no claim that Arthas solo'd the whole city and the dreadlord himself.

dude wtf?
Do you realize that this is Warcraft? This is not Lord of the Rings. Stop being blinded by the old traditional archtype that fantasy use to show orcs as.
Warcraft was the first fantasy to actually show Orcs as just normal people, well since Warcraft 3, instead of just the ugly mindless minions of some villian.

Actually Warcraft orcs seem pretty standard to me. More mellow than Lord of the Ring, clearly. But otherwise pretty standard. "Normal people" can be evil. Just because they have their own cultural identity doesn't mean they are beyond reproach.

Nothing. But this has been the problem throughout Cataclysm as well. The horde do a lot of bad things, the alliance do pretty much nothing. The alliance received no real story or personality in cataclysm, there were just the generic paper-cutout good guys dealing with horde aggression. There was no alliance story in Cataclysm just a bunch of parody zones and zones where you didn't even know the horde existed (take Feralas you actually didn't even talk about the horde once in the whole zone, even in Ashenvale less than half the quests really dealt with the horde the rest were cleansing quests, finding corruption and dealing with elements).

I mean the alliance don't even really have to do anything "bad" for the sake of being equal with the horde. Asking for that is the same as alliance players asking for a win to be equal with the horde. The horde want to win by any means necessary, even if it's less than honorable. Personally if it cost the alliance a few good points for them to develop a decent story I'm all for it. I'm just tired of the alliance being so good and just dealing with horde aggression, I want to see them get angry and start to develop a soul. I see it a much larger problem with Blizzard's ability to write actually write a decent alliance story than horde being seen as evil (hey at least they are getting a story). It just hasn't been shades of grey in a long time.

I am perfectly happy with the Alliance being good guys just dealing with horde aggression. I like to be able to take pride in my preferred faction and justification and honor are the things I can be proud of.

[Every Pwny]

The issue is Pwny, that Taurajo showed the Alliance isn't allowed to make "grey" or "aggressive" actions, or it spends the entire expansion pack being used to justify every single one of the Horde's actions who are just trying to live in a world with the evil, baby eating, skin wearing, Alliance monsters.

That's very true. Even though Taurajo was just horde players receiving misinformation about the events though. That's why Hawthorne was killed in the end. It's funny to see them always pointing to that as some kind of rallying point. I just see it as the horde being so desperate to find SOMETHING the alliance did wrong in Cataclysm. I don't remember did the alliance even do anything equivalent to the Broken Front in wotlk? It just seems like they don't know how to really write a real alliance story anymore, and yet we are suppose to see both sides as equally good, hah.

[Dreknar20]

Don't you folks see?

What draws people to the Alliance? White castles and noble knights in shining armor.

What draws people to the horde? Badassery. And Blood elves.

Nobody joins the horde so they have a clear concience.
.

Yeah, the Horde and Orcs are generally more savage and a harsh people than humans and elves, but not to the point of being bloodthirsty monsters

---------- Post added 2012-07-08 at 01:19 PM ----------

I said "large percentage" and made no claim that Arthas solo'd the whole city and the dreadlord himself.
.

so the Silver Hand and Jaina make up a "large percentage" of Lorderon's military strength?

[Every Pwny]

I am perfectly happy with the Alliance being good guys just dealing with horde aggression. I like to be able to take pride in my preferred faction and justification and honor are the things I can be proud of.

Yeah, but it seems to come at the cost of any actual in-game story development. I guess that's also a problem with the neutral faction like the CC and the Argent Crusade taking things like Night Elves and Humans and just watering down their culture among both factions, so you don't really know where the alliance ends and the neutral factions begin.

[RyanEX]

Its like, the rewards for the fall of theramore. The alliance get a tabard saying 'rememeber theramore' and the horde get a mini mana bomb.
This is there way of pretty much condoning the hordes action into trying to destroy theramore, and the alliances lose of it.

I might not have a problem with destroying theramore, if it actually felt justifiable in attacking it, such as having the alliance do something equally bad to the horde, but they don't, instead its just another case of the horde destroys an alliance town and the alliance have to clean up, and we get an award for making it happen?

I know blizzard wanted to bring the war back into warcraft, but this method is retarded, it makes the horde appear as the bad guys and the alliance will defeat it, yet how can that even be the case when you can't just disband a faction like the horde with its playerbase.

There always has to be an instigator for a war, Trassk. And when you actually sit down and think about it, you begin to realise that Blizz're being quite clever in the subtle way they're advancing the Horde storyline.

Let's look at it from a logical point of view. They can't use Varian as a war instigator, because they already did that once in Wrath, and they're trying to steer him away from the Schizo personality he had in the comic and books. Other than him, you don't have any other Alliance leader really hell bent on wiping out the Horde.

Gnomes are trying to reclaim their city, Dwarves are still getting used to be ruled over by a council, the Draenei are still focused on the Light v Dark war that's coming, and the Night Elves just want their lands left alone. Only the Worgen show any real desire for a war, and that's more against the Forsaken than anything else.


Now we have Garrosh, an experiment by Blizzard to see if people really wanted Thrall as Warchief (imo), who ended up being hated by probably 90% of the Horde fanbase once the novelty wore off. Through this they have a way to breathe some fresh life into the orcs. The story went that the orcs follow Garrosh because he's a true orc. Untainted, basically what they would have been, had their father's and mothers not drunk the demon blood.

And guess what, he says that Thrall is wrong. A REAL ORC says that Thrall is wrong to negotiate with those weak Alliance. The strong take what they need, and the Horde is strong, so why bother asking for what they need.

Eventually the story's going to arc to the point where orcs begin to realise that while Garrosh has the orc interest at heart, he's alienating those that stand with them, especially those that helped them in their time of need (Tauren and trolls) and some of the more openminded begin to drift away from him which then leads to their opposing him.

And this is where the fact that they can't have the Alliance going over the top against the horde comes in. The rebel Horde have to have some reason to believe that the Alliance will be willing to help them overthrow Garrosh without taking the opportunity to right previous wrongs. If the Alliance was to go around bombing towns and slaughtering civilians, there'd be no way they'd help. They'd be just as likely to wipe said resistance as they would any other Horde force.

So basically, by throwing Garrosh to the wolves, and having the Alliance take the moral high ground...again(sickening isn't it)...they ensure that the Horde has a chance to relearn what it means to be Noble yet Savage.

[Deleted]

Ive never noticed this

[Deleted]

First? I doubt it. Also, the funny thing is that all the Horde are the mindless millions of some villain in Pandaria and arguably Cataclysm.

The funny thing is that what you said is wrong. One of the major Horde factions in Pandaria are against Garrosh.


Anyway, let's not confuse savage with evil/bloodthirsty. Just look at our own world primitive tribes. Anthropology should be teached to young kids so the world can better understand those that are different from them.

The Night Elves are as savage as the orcs, lorewise, although Knaak pussified them...

---------- Post added 2012-07-08 at 04:02 PM ----------

There always has to be an instigator for a war, Trassk. And when you actually sit down and think about it, you begin to realise that Blizz're being quite clever in the subtle way they're advancing the Horde storyline.

Let's look at it from a logical point of view. They can't use Varian as a war instigator, because they already did that once in Wrath, and they're trying to steer him away from the Schizo personality he had in the comic and books. Other than him, you don't have any other Alliance leader really hell bent on wiping out the Horde.

Gnomes are trying to reclaim their city, Dwarves are still getting used to be ruled over by a council, the Draenei are still focused on the Light v Dark war that's coming, and the Night Elves just want their lands left alone. Only the Worgen show any real desire for a war, and that's more against the Forsaken than anything else.


Now we have Garrosh, an experiment by Blizzard to see if people really wanted Thrall as Warchief (imo), who ended up being hated by probably 90% of the Horde fanbase once the novelty wore off. Through this they have a way to breathe some fresh life into the orcs. The story went that the orcs follow Garrosh because he's a true orc. Untainted, basically what they would have been, had their father's and mothers not drunk the demon blood.

And guess what, he says that Thrall is wrong. A REAL ORC says that Thrall is wrong to negotiate with those weak Alliance. The strong take what they need, and the Horde is strong, so why bother asking for what they need.

Eventually the story's going to arc to the point where orcs begin to realise that while Garrosh has the orc interest at heart, he's alienating those that stand with them, especially those that helped them in their time of need (Tauren and trolls) and some of the more openminded begin to drift away from him which then leads to their opposing him.

And this is where the fact that they can't have the Alliance going over the top against the horde comes in. The rebel Horde have to have some reason to believe that the Alliance will be willing to help them overthrow Garrosh without taking the opportunity to right previous wrongs. If the Alliance was to go around bombing towns and slaughtering civilians, there'd be no way they'd help. They'd be just as likely to wipe said resistance as they would any other Horde force.

So basically, by throwing Garrosh to the wolves, and having the Alliance take the moral high ground...again(sickening isn't it)...they ensure that the Horde has a chance to relearn what it means to be Noble yet Savage.

Thank you, finally I see someone that also understand that is not about Horde nor Alliance, but the simple fact that Garrosh is perfect for the antagonist role.

[Deleted]

The funny thing is that what you said is wrong. One of the major Horde factions in Pandaria are against Garrosh.

One of yes, but they're still a (small) part of the Horde and the vast majority of it is more than willing to follow him into the crucible, including the player character up until Garrosh finally goes fruit loop. Not to mention the whole of the Cataclysm expansion. Additionally, the Forsaken have always been written into the corner of "villains who work for the Horde but pretend they're doing decent work".

[Heltoray]

so why do you care about this? It doesn't alter your playing experience at all.

[Deleted]

One of yes, but they're still a (small) part of the Horde and the vast majority of it is more than willing to follow him into the crucible, including the player character up until Garrosh finally goes fruit loop. Not to mention the whole of the Cataclysm expansion. Additionally, the Forsaken have always been written into the corner of "villains who work for the Horde but pretend they're doing decent work".

It's not a small part. It's the Tauren (Jaina even consider Baine as the best peace solution) and the Trolls. The Blood Elves are pretty neutral and isolated, going wherever Sylvanas goes, the Goblins being there for the cash. The Horde is far from united, all that unites them is the need to be united. Not for love of Garrosh, but for survival of their nations and old hatreds.

That's why the Sunwalkers in Pandaria are the "butterfly" on the Chaos theory about to happen on the Horde.