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  1. #141
    Pit Lord Eliot123's Avatar
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    I think Argent Champion was more like, aiming for the bigger picture, in relation to WoW but also outside of it - if you get when I mean. Like, if you look at the races that make the Horde and their fantasy history before Warcraft (yes yes irrelevant, whatever), pretty much all of them were made to represent man's fears and evils in one way or another (undead? orcs? goblins? trolls?) and I do agree with him that a person who doesn't know much about WoW's lore beforehand and is into ''noble and heroic'' is more likely to roll Alliance than Horde (I'll start from myself - I had no idea what WoW was before I bought WoW while on vacation back in 2005 and because I didn't have net connection there, I had to wait until I got home to play, but in the meantime I read the original WoW manual cover to cover. Just reading about the Alliance and Horde races, what they are, what they do, etc, made me decide that I wanted to play the Alliance, especially under influences such as LotR*). If Blizz writers are doing what they are doing now on purpose I do not know but there might be some truth to what he says about them wanting to represent sides as good and evil for a specific purpose (such as simplifying the story to attract more customers?).

    I do, somewhat, like the idea of not representing the Horde as the typical, classic ''bad guys'', nor the Alliance of typical ''good and noble'' side (hell, I would've been the first to side with Leyara and incinerate Malfurion to a crisp back on Molten Front if we had that option) but as of lately, sides have been getting really polarized, which I guess is the main problem here.

    However, all that said, what did you expect. WoW writing is about as shallow as it gets. If anything, I'd want WoW story to be more engaging/deeper/with more immersion, especially as the current bland ol' Alliance but eh, nothing is perfect, and World of Warcraft is a video game after all, not a serious piece of literature.

    *After all this time though, I still am sticking with the same decision, while I see the fun elements in playing an Orc, a Blood Elf, or a Tauren, I'd never want to play as a faction who sides with the Forsaken - video game or not, I still have some moral principles of my own irl that I like to always respect. If my guild were to change to Horde, for one reason or another, I think I'd most likely roll a Blood Elf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    The whole seperation in good vs bad isn't neccessarily bad in it self, the problem is the way blizzard handels it. If the Horde were in fact just a bunch of savage murderers (like the villains in DCUO or the sith in SWTOR) people could just adapt to it and commit to their role (I wouldn't be playing horde then, though). The thing in wow is that you constantly oscillate between good and bad, just depending on which zone you happen to play in at the moment. One moment you try to save every living beeing in azeroth from annihilation, the next time your are tasked to murder a few innocent. Sometimes, even within a certain plotline, you go from "lets work together" to "darn, you are in my way, die already". There is simply no consistency in our actions.

    In some way, even though it was still poorly done overall, the war in cataclysm made more sense. The ashenvale massacre was, while it was staged by the twilight hammer, still a certain point in the plot that made both parties fight one another w/o making one party purely bad, because both parties felt justified in their actions. What I've seen in MoP so far does not make sense and just boils down to the horde beeing bad, and every orc beeing a moron that follows derprosh blindly. And once again you switch between noble hero and savage beast in a matter of seconds w/o ryhme nor reason. The only thing that could possibly fix any of this would be the new version of the jade forest (might be the only good that comes out of it), but I get the feeling blizzar (or more the point metzen) doesn't even realize that. Anyway, maybe the first content patch brings in a plot that evens things out, the alliance needs to do some serious shit though to catch up to the horde ...
    I also agree with this, especially the first paragraph.

    Anyhow, coffee time!

    Edit:

    I'd expect an alliance fan to only see orcs in the worst possible way and forget how there culture came from a noble yet savage tribesman based people, some tribes having more rough traditions then other tribes, but they did come from groups that respected things such as the elements, the ancestors and the hunt.
    While I try not to be a huge Alliance fan, I know that deep inside I am and honestly, I'd be all up for peace with the Horde but currently, I don't see that happening anytime soon.
    Last edited by Eliot123; 2012-07-08 at 11:08 AM.
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  2. #142
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    It's hard to tell what your position is on Orcs. You do have a habit of making topics about how you dislike the turn the Orcs have taken and that it's against their own noble savage esque ways.
    which it is. I'd expect an alliance fan to only see orcs in the worst possible way and forget how there culture came from a noble yet savage tribesman based people, some tribes having more rough traditions then other tribes, but they did come from groups that respected things such as the elements, the ancestors and the hunt.
    That is what an orc is, instead of the ones twisted into being puppets of demons and warlocks. Its not a glass eyed view rather an example of what orcs can be at there best.
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  3. #143
    I agree, this favourtism is getting a tad old. I have both horde and alliance characters and it annoys me they are portrayed as weaklings when in lore they stronger. Numerically and technologically.

  4. #144
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    which it is. I'd expect an alliance fan to only see orcs in the worst possible way and forget how there culture came from a noble yet savage tribesman based people, some tribes having more rough traditions then other tribes, but they did come from groups that respected things such as the elements, the ancestors and the hunt.
    Maybe I've lost the plot a little . But the point that was made about Orcs is that while they aren't inherently bad, their own culture of at it's core does revolve around the use of violence due to fact a lot of their society is based upon fighting prowess.

  5. #145
    orcs fighting for freedom? what a load of shit. orcs blow up their own planet then come to azeroth and try to claim it for their own and people still have the audacity to claim orcs are the poor wittle slaves, attempted genocide of humans and dwarves and enslavement of red dragons be damed
    Last edited by ambigiouslynamed; 2012-07-08 at 12:21 PM.
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  6. #146
    Field Marshal Argent Champion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Your entire post pretty much comes across with pure alliance one side bias opinion. Obviously as alliance you would only want to see the bad elements in the horde and ignore anything else. The horde were once the bad guys in the past, but overcame it. Now atm ones like the orcs are misguided by a bad leader, who they will kill or take care of come the end of mists, showing Garrosh's way for the horde is not the hordes future.
    The horde has it's good elements. But I'm not trying to prove they are good here so I neglected to include that part as it'd only make my already long post longer and you seem to already be aware of their positive elements.

    And there are many orcs who are in favor of Garrosh lets not forget. For every orc that's like Saurfang, theres another who's like Garrosh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    I know you think using other mmo examples like warhammer online give you reason to think the horde is bad, but that itself is wrong in its extension, as anyone who can play both sides of either horde or alliance could tell you, The alliance wants to wipe out the horde, not just the bad elements of the horde but all of it, the good along with the bad. So trying to claim the alliance are the good guys, even come mists they are as much responsible for the crisis on pandaria as the horde, its about time you buck up and stop using rose tinted glasses.
    I don't recall mentioning Warhammer online. Never played it. If the Alliance wanted the horde wiped out, they would have done it when the entire orcish race was living in their camps back before Thrall was warchief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    excuse me unless you've just been intentionally ignoring what I've said thus far then you don't really know anything about my current take on the orcs.

    As I say, the orcs are misguided by a douchebag leader that pushed there culture deeper into a state of war. The problem with orcs is unless they have someone tell them how to act they just follow whatever there current leader tells them... actually that's pretty much what humans do as well, or did you forget the culling of stratholme?
    You mean the Culling of Stratholme where a large percentage of the Alliance soldiers refused to follow Arthas into the city to kill people?

    Uther: "Have you lost your mind Arthas?!"
    Jaina: "I'm sorry, Arthas, I can't watch you do this."
    Last edited by Argent Champion; 2012-07-08 at 12:38 PM.
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  7. #147
    gief EVIL faction I would like to slaughter ALLY/Horde pussies.

    Quote from Cata first day lvling, from fellow horde " Leave Ally alone, they just trying to lvl up "

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  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argent Champion View Post
    You mean the Culling of Stratholme where a large percentage of the Alliance soldiers refused to follow Arthas into the city to kill people?

    Uther: "Have you lost your mind Arthas?!"
    Jaina: "I'm sorry, Arthas, I can't watch you do this."
    large percentage?
    Yeah cause Arthas killed the 100k+ population of an entire city all with his own 2 hands.
    Its not like he had his own army in tow with him.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-08 at 12:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Argent Champion View Post
    The Horde are generally the badguys. And why shouldn't they be? Look who they are. Orcs, Minotaurs, Ghouls, Trolls and arrogant, cruel elves. All the classically evil races. Admittedly nobody's perfect but the Alliance have all the typical heroic races. Not only that but I see the story as similar to Native Americans and their struggles.
    .
    dude wtf?
    Do you realize that this is Warcraft? This is not Lord of the Rings. Stop being blinded by the old traditional archtype that fantasy use to show orcs as.
    Warcraft was the first fantasy to actually show Orcs as just normal people, well since Warcraft 3, instead of just the ugly mindless minions of some villian.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    dude wtf?
    Do you realize that this is Warcraft? This is not Lord of the Rings. Stop being blinded by the old traditional archtype that fantasy use to show orcs as.
    Warcraft was the first fantasy to actually show Orcs as just normal people, well since Warcraft 3, instead of just the ugly mindless minions of some villian.
    First? I doubt it. Also, the funny thing is that all the Horde are the mindless millions of some villain in Pandaria and arguably Cataclysm.

  10. #150
    Nothing. But this has been the problem throughout Cataclysm as well. The horde do a lot of bad things, the alliance do pretty much nothing. The alliance received no real story or personality in cataclysm, there were just the generic paper-cutout good guys dealing with horde aggression. There was no alliance story in Cataclysm just a bunch of parody zones and zones where you didn't even know the horde existed (take Feralas you actually didn't even talk about the horde once in the whole zone, even in Ashenvale less than half the quests really dealt with the horde the rest were cleansing quests, finding corruption and dealing with elements).

    I mean the alliance don't even really have to do anything "bad" for the sake of being equal with the horde. Asking for that is the same as alliance players asking for a win to be equal with the horde. The horde want to win by any means necessary, even if it's less than honorable. Personally if it cost the alliance a few good points for them to develop a decent story I'm all for it. I'm just tired of the alliance being so good and just dealing with horde aggression, I want to see them get angry and start to develop a soul. I see it a much larger problem with Blizzard's ability to write actually write a decent alliance story than horde being seen as evil (hey at least they are getting a story). It just hasn't been shades of grey in a long time.

  11. #151
    The issue is Pwny, that Taurajo showed the Alliance isn't allowed to make "grey" or "aggressive" actions, or it spends the entire expansion pack being used to justify every single one of the Horde's actions who are just trying to live in a world with the evil, baby eating, skin wearing, Alliance monsters.

  12. #152
    Field Marshal Argent Champion's Avatar
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    Don't you folks see?

    What draws people to the Alliance? White castles and noble knights in shining armor.

    What draws people to the horde? Badassery. And Blood elves.

    Nobody joins the horde so they have a clear concience.

    I think blizzard knows this and just might be embracing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    large percentage?
    Yeah cause Arthas killed the 100k+ population of an entire city all with his own 2 hands.
    Its not like he had his own army in tow with him.
    I said "large percentage" and made no claim that Arthas solo'd the whole city and the dreadlord himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    dude wtf?
    Do you realize that this is Warcraft? This is not Lord of the Rings. Stop being blinded by the old traditional archtype that fantasy use to show orcs as.
    Warcraft was the first fantasy to actually show Orcs as just normal people, well since Warcraft 3, instead of just the ugly mindless minions of some villian.
    Actually Warcraft orcs seem pretty standard to me. More mellow than Lord of the Ring, clearly. But otherwise pretty standard. "Normal people" can be evil. Just because they have their own cultural identity doesn't mean they are beyond reproach.


    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    Nothing. But this has been the problem throughout Cataclysm as well. The horde do a lot of bad things, the alliance do pretty much nothing. The alliance received no real story or personality in cataclysm, there were just the generic paper-cutout good guys dealing with horde aggression. There was no alliance story in Cataclysm just a bunch of parody zones and zones where you didn't even know the horde existed (take Feralas you actually didn't even talk about the horde once in the whole zone, even in Ashenvale less than half the quests really dealt with the horde the rest were cleansing quests, finding corruption and dealing with elements).

    I mean the alliance don't even really have to do anything "bad" for the sake of being equal with the horde. Asking for that is the same as alliance players asking for a win to be equal with the horde. The horde want to win by any means necessary, even if it's less than honorable. Personally if it cost the alliance a few good points for them to develop a decent story I'm all for it. I'm just tired of the alliance being so good and just dealing with horde aggression, I want to see them get angry and start to develop a soul. I see it a much larger problem with Blizzard's ability to write actually write a decent alliance story than horde being seen as evil (hey at least they are getting a story). It just hasn't been shades of grey in a long time.
    I am perfectly happy with the Alliance being good guys just dealing with horde aggression. I like to be able to take pride in my preferred faction and justification and honor are the things I can be proud of.
    Last edited by Argent Champion; 2012-07-08 at 01:18 PM.
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  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by CHALET View Post
    The issue is Pwny, that Taurajo showed the Alliance isn't allowed to make "grey" or "aggressive" actions, or it spends the entire expansion pack being used to justify every single one of the Horde's actions who are just trying to live in a world with the evil, baby eating, skin wearing, Alliance monsters.
    That's very true. Even though Taurajo was just horde players receiving misinformation about the events though. That's why Hawthorne was killed in the end. It's funny to see them always pointing to that as some kind of rallying point. I just see it as the horde being so desperate to find SOMETHING the alliance did wrong in Cataclysm. I don't remember did the alliance even do anything equivalent to the Broken Front in wotlk? It just seems like they don't know how to really write a real alliance story anymore, and yet we are suppose to see both sides as equally good, hah.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argent Champion View Post
    Don't you folks see?

    What draws people to the Alliance? White castles and noble knights in shining armor.

    What draws people to the horde? Badassery. And Blood elves.

    Nobody joins the horde so they have a clear concience.
    .
    Yeah, the Horde and Orcs are generally more savage and a harsh people than humans and elves, but not to the point of being bloodthirsty monsters

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-08 at 01:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Argent Champion View Post
    I said "large percentage" and made no claim that Arthas solo'd the whole city and the dreadlord himself.
    .
    so the Silver Hand and Jaina make up a "large percentage" of Lorderon's military strength?

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Argent Champion View Post
    I am perfectly happy with the Alliance being good guys just dealing with horde aggression. I like to be able to take pride in my preferred faction and justification and honor are the things I can be proud of.
    Yeah, but it seems to come at the cost of any actual in-game story development. I guess that's also a problem with the neutral faction like the CC and the Argent Crusade taking things like Night Elves and Humans and just watering down their culture among both factions, so you don't really know where the alliance ends and the neutral factions begin.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Its like, the rewards for the fall of theramore. The alliance get a tabard saying 'rememeber theramore' and the horde get a mini mana bomb.
    This is there way of pretty much condoning the hordes action into trying to destroy theramore, and the alliances lose of it.

    I might not have a problem with destroying theramore, if it actually felt justifiable in attacking it, such as having the alliance do something equally bad to the horde, but they don't, instead its just another case of the horde destroys an alliance town and the alliance have to clean up, and we get an award for making it happen?

    I know blizzard wanted to bring the war back into warcraft, but this method is retarded, it makes the horde appear as the bad guys and the alliance will defeat it, yet how can that even be the case when you can't just disband a faction like the horde with its playerbase.

    There always has to be an instigator for a war, Trassk. And when you actually sit down and think about it, you begin to realise that Blizz're being quite clever in the subtle way they're advancing the Horde storyline.

    Let's look at it from a logical point of view. They can't use Varian as a war instigator, because they already did that once in Wrath, and they're trying to steer him away from the Schizo personality he had in the comic and books. Other than him, you don't have any other Alliance leader really hell bent on wiping out the Horde.

    Gnomes are trying to reclaim their city, Dwarves are still getting used to be ruled over by a council, the Draenei are still focused on the Light v Dark war that's coming, and the Night Elves just want their lands left alone. Only the Worgen show any real desire for a war, and that's more against the Forsaken than anything else.


    Now we have Garrosh, an experiment by Blizzard to see if people really wanted Thrall as Warchief (imo), who ended up being hated by probably 90% of the Horde fanbase once the novelty wore off. Through this they have a way to breathe some fresh life into the orcs. The story went that the orcs follow Garrosh because he's a true orc. Untainted, basically what they would have been, had their father's and mothers not drunk the demon blood.

    And guess what, he says that Thrall is wrong. A REAL ORC says that Thrall is wrong to negotiate with those weak Alliance. The strong take what they need, and the Horde is strong, so why bother asking for what they need.

    Eventually the story's going to arc to the point where orcs begin to realise that while Garrosh has the orc interest at heart, he's alienating those that stand with them, especially those that helped them in their time of need (Tauren and trolls) and some of the more openminded begin to drift away from him which then leads to their opposing him.

    And this is where the fact that they can't have the Alliance going over the top against the horde comes in. The rebel Horde have to have some reason to believe that the Alliance will be willing to help them overthrow Garrosh without taking the opportunity to right previous wrongs. If the Alliance was to go around bombing towns and slaughtering civilians, there'd be no way they'd help. They'd be just as likely to wipe said resistance as they would any other Horde force.

    So basically, by throwing Garrosh to the wolves, and having the Alliance take the moral high ground...again(sickening isn't it)...they ensure that the Horde has a chance to relearn what it means to be Noble yet Savage.
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  17. #157
    Ive never noticed this

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by CHALET View Post
    First? I doubt it. Also, the funny thing is that all the Horde are the mindless millions of some villain in Pandaria and arguably Cataclysm.
    The funny thing is that what you said is wrong. One of the major Horde factions in Pandaria are against Garrosh.


    Anyway, let's not confuse savage with evil/bloodthirsty. Just look at our own world primitive tribes. Anthropology should be teached to young kids so the world can better understand those that are different from them.

    The Night Elves are as savage as the orcs, lorewise, although Knaak pussified them...

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-08 at 04:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    There always has to be an instigator for a war, Trassk. And when you actually sit down and think about it, you begin to realise that Blizz're being quite clever in the subtle way they're advancing the Horde storyline.

    Let's look at it from a logical point of view. They can't use Varian as a war instigator, because they already did that once in Wrath, and they're trying to steer him away from the Schizo personality he had in the comic and books. Other than him, you don't have any other Alliance leader really hell bent on wiping out the Horde.

    Gnomes are trying to reclaim their city, Dwarves are still getting used to be ruled over by a council, the Draenei are still focused on the Light v Dark war that's coming, and the Night Elves just want their lands left alone. Only the Worgen show any real desire for a war, and that's more against the Forsaken than anything else.


    Now we have Garrosh, an experiment by Blizzard to see if people really wanted Thrall as Warchief (imo), who ended up being hated by probably 90% of the Horde fanbase once the novelty wore off. Through this they have a way to breathe some fresh life into the orcs. The story went that the orcs follow Garrosh because he's a true orc. Untainted, basically what they would have been, had their father's and mothers not drunk the demon blood.

    And guess what, he says that Thrall is wrong. A REAL ORC says that Thrall is wrong to negotiate with those weak Alliance. The strong take what they need, and the Horde is strong, so why bother asking for what they need.

    Eventually the story's going to arc to the point where orcs begin to realise that while Garrosh has the orc interest at heart, he's alienating those that stand with them, especially those that helped them in their time of need (Tauren and trolls) and some of the more openminded begin to drift away from him which then leads to their opposing him.

    And this is where the fact that they can't have the Alliance going over the top against the horde comes in. The rebel Horde have to have some reason to believe that the Alliance will be willing to help them overthrow Garrosh without taking the opportunity to right previous wrongs. If the Alliance was to go around bombing towns and slaughtering civilians, there'd be no way they'd help. They'd be just as likely to wipe said resistance as they would any other Horde force.

    So basically, by throwing Garrosh to the wolves, and having the Alliance take the moral high ground...again(sickening isn't it)...they ensure that the Horde has a chance to relearn what it means to be Noble yet Savage.

    Thank you, finally I see someone that also understand that is not about Horde nor Alliance, but the simple fact that Garrosh is perfect for the antagonist role.
    Last edited by Tauror; 2012-07-08 at 03:03 PM.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    The funny thing is that what you said is wrong. One of the major Horde factions in Pandaria are against Garrosh.
    One of yes, but they're still a (small) part of the Horde and the vast majority of it is more than willing to follow him into the crucible, including the player character up until Garrosh finally goes fruit loop. Not to mention the whole of the Cataclysm expansion. Additionally, the Forsaken have always been written into the corner of "villains who work for the Horde but pretend they're doing decent work".

  20. #160
    so why do you care about this? It doesn't alter your playing experience at all.
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