MoP: Ret vs DK Frost (my experience)

[Mortac]

I was doing some comparisons both yesterday (pre-patch) and today (after patch) between Ret and Frost DK. While Frost was slightly nerfed and Ret was slightly buffed, the difference from yesterday isn't all that noticeable. Both of these characters are wearing the exact same gear. Unfortunately, Recount doesn't seem to work atm, but my conclusion is this:

Ret: Templar's Verdict and Exorcism both crit around 40k while Crusader Strike and Judgement both crit around 20k.
Frost: Frost Strike crits around 40k and Obliterate crits around 75k.

a) I literally feel like I'm doing twice the DPS on the DK, though my rational side tells me the difference can't possibly be that huge. I hope to get Recount working soon.

b) Ret feels WAAAY more clunky and slower to play and you much more often find yourself waiting for an attack cooldown. Ret simply doesn't play as nicely.

c) While DKs must keep their diseases up, paladins also have to keep Inquisition up. It feels more resource demanding to keep Inquisition up compared to the disease appliers from DKs.

d) Frost also seems to scale better since Obliterate does some sickly 396% weapon dmg compared to the 260% (+ some minor damage) on Templar's Verdict. You can also use Obliterate way more often than Templar's Verdict.

e) With Killing Machine on the DK, I'm critting all the fricking time. So even though paladins got a crit buff on Inquisition this patch, Killing Machine is just soooo superior it's insane. I feel like I have at least a 50% crit chance on average on Frost Strike and Obliterate due to this skill.

f) DKs can enjoy a lower GCD as well.

I know MoP is still far from being released, but I don't know what Blizzard is smoking if they think these two classes are anywhere near each other in performance. I cringe every time I switch from a Frost DK to a Ret pally.

What could be done? Well, I think Templar's Verdict needs to hit harder, and either the seals or inquisition (or both!) could be improved. Something also needs to be done to make gameplay feel smoother and more enjoyable on the paladin. Like I said earlier, Ret feels extremely clunky, slow and boring compared to Frost.

[Adominitis]

I've roflpwned every DK in my path on MoP beta.

Ret by far isn't even close to being as "clunky" compared to live. The ability to store 5 HP and Judgement generated HP allows for a much smother generation of HP on top of which Exo does as well and still has chance to proc. Besides there is still the chance to proc an instant 3 HP.

[Mortac]

It may be that it's less "clunky" than on live, but it still feels terrible compared to a Frost DK.

Also, the proc chance for 3 HP requires that you spec for it, and it adds somewhat to the "clunkiness" in the sense that it's an entirely random proc that doesn't happen all that often.

[Firepain]

Ret's Damage also comes from Mastery off CS and TV which does change the dps done

[Grognard]

Didn't they change it so that a Frost DK was expected to actually be in Frost Presence, thus removing their faster globals? I remember reading somewhere they wanted all presences to be useful come MoP, considering FP was pretty well benched for all of Cata (I think it was recommended to swap to Frost for AoE, but I don't think I ever saw a DK doing it).

As to the "clunk" of MoP Ret, what's your haste at on beta? Have you played around with that yet, seeing as how it reduces the cooldown on - what is it, now? like, half? - the rotation? Also, more haste equals more autos which equals more chances to proc AoW for more Exos. Gonna leave to the real eggheads over at EJ to determine whether or not we're going haste>mastery, mastery>haste, or haste=mastery, but I think you might wanna play with it if you have not yet done so, because I know that I, for one, am curious.

[Deleted]

they already removed the 0.5 less global from unholy so dk has the same as ret

[Mortac]

I'm not sure where the gcd decrease comes from because I am using Frost Presence and there's no doubt that the gcd is shorter on the DK.
EDIT: The DK has 45.84% haste so this is why. Frost DKs enjoy massive haste and attack speed buffs as well.

Regarding stats, I have 11.58% haste and 36% mastery self-buffed on the pally.

[Grognard]

So, you are, presumably, still favoring mastery over haste for reforging; have you tried haste over mastery, yet? ANd, on the DK, it seems like you're still following the haste over mastery design - have you bothered reversing it (I don't really think mastery is gonna overtake haste any time soon for DKS, I'm just a little curious)?

Looking at your mastery, though, I agree that Ret numbers seem a little low. A 40k TV crit, with 36% mastery, generates a Hand of Light hit of 14.4k - with Inquisition up, that actually becomes18.3k; the SoT hit off a 40k TV would be 5.6k, and with Inq that goes to 7.2k. So, total for a TV crit is roughly 65.5k (40k TV physical hit + 18.3k Inq-boosted HoL proc + 7.2k Inq-boosted SoT hit), versus your DK's 75k Obliterate, which does seem more frequent than a Ret's TV. Knowing Blizz, though, a single TV (factoring in mastery/seal damage or not) is likely not balanced 1:1 against a DK's Obliterate or a Warrior's...whatever big attack they're using in MoP...because Ret damage seems like it is still gonna be balanced around the huge burst still inherent to the spec.

[Deleted]

he exaggerates or does something wrong. cs non crit does up to 40k alone. (with the free pvp gear). frost dk just does more burst and feels generaly smoother

[Alanar]

they already removed the 0.5 less global from unholy so dk has the same as ret

Wrong

Dk's got 1 GCD as baseline.
TBh as a ret and ur losing from a Frost Dk, ur doing it wrong. Both are realy good at kiting. make that ur advantage with ur guardian up and throw some spells. WoG no cd???

like once again: why ur losing ur doing it wrong man.

[Johnmatrix]

Yes MMO-champ did not datamine it correctly. All death knights got 1 sec globals. The stance bonuces are only an addition to that. Thats why it feels smoother because its actually faster.

[Tullkas]

old but good:

The Deathknight have full dungeon set from the new dungeons, and 402+ ilvl
FaxiDerp Have 407 ilvl with Gurthalak Heroic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au_Fd...eature=related

[jangkun]

I'm intrigued by this "review" since I don't know if I'll play my DK or my ret first..
I always found that TV isn't hitting hard enough for its 3 hoPow but it now generates way faster in MoP than in Cata and you need to consider our Mastery that isn't reduce by armor.

I'm curious about dk/ret healing too. I hate frost Dk healing in Cata but with all new spells we got it should be a little better. Ret healing was ok (I still prefer WoLK healing with instant flash over exo than WoG over TV in cata) but is it equal or better than in Cata? ret doesnt have sacred shield anymore that boost WoG right?

Ret does more dmg too than frost DK with Censure than the 2 dots DK use some maybe part of the balance is here.

[Deleted]

Wrong

Dk's got 1 GCD as baseline.
TBh as a ret and ur losing from a Frost Dk, ur doing it wrong. Both are realy good at kiting. make that ur advantage with ur guardian up and throw some spells. WoG no cd???

like once again: why ur losing ur doing it wrong man.

k my bad with the gcd then. WoG heals for the same as level 85 right now, 25k non crit. and i have to agree ret vs dk should be even

[Mortac]

Just to clarify from my OP: Those damage numbers are with diseases up on the DK and inquisition up on the pally. The testing I've done is on a training dummy, not in PVP. I was merely looking at the DPS and gameplay of these two classes.

I also want to mention that I haven't reforged anything and state again that both classes are wearing the exact same gear. The reason the DK's haste is so much higher is because of passive bonuses that Frost gets. The DK DPS on the stat screen is also listed as 600 DPS higher than on the pally, again with the same gear.

My experience from doing these tests and comparing these two specs alone is concluded by saying that the DK hits harder, does more DPS overall and feels MUCH smoother to play. If you want to add in other factors such as utility, overall effectiveness in PVP and how other specs are doing, then I have nothing to say about this as I haven't tested it.

[Veliane]

ret vs dk should be even

No it shouldn't, video up there shows decent at best ret consistently beating a frost DK.

Best thing DKs had vs Rets was the CD on WoG coupled with the Necrospam, both are gone.

[Tullkas]

No it shouldn't, video up there shows decent at best ret consistently beating a frost DK.

Best thing DKs had vs Rets was the CD on WoG coupled with the Necrospam, both are gone.

the thing is (in that video up there I posted)that now in MoP ret can do something he couldnt before - ret can now KITE ! which looks like efficient tactic, snare+undispelable wings,exo,judgement + sprint and there you go...

look how the same ret kited and beat decent rogue here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2COC...ature=youtu.be

looks like frost DK got better burst and is easy to play as he always was but ret is more complex now and got more utility.

[Veliane]

Ret unable to kite on live is a myth, I do it to Rogues, DKs and Warriors, good ones.

I delight in the possibilities with burden of guilt.

[Grognard]

I also want to mention that I haven't reforged anything and state again that both classes are wearing the exact same gear. The reason the DK's haste is so much higher is because of passive bonuses that Frost gets. The DK DPS on the stat screen is also listed as 600 DPS higher than on the pally, again with the same gear.

"Same gear" including weapons, I assume? If you're DW Frost, that may account for the slight discrepancy in AP - though I do recall noticing a similar problem early in Cata between my slightly-better-geared Ret and my wife's 2h Frost DK, and I think we both had 359 weapons at the time.

[Mortac]

"Same gear" including weapons, I assume?

Same gear, including the 2H weapons.