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  1. #1

    MoP: Ret Mastery vs. Haste

    It looks as though Haste may be stronger than Mastery for MoP. As ret, we no longer have reliable fillers between cooldowns, so having CS, Judge, and Exo coming up very frequently seems more important than bonus damage. I have tried out both and when stacking mastery I find myself sitting there doing nothing for a LONG time because CD's are so long. Haste is amazing. My holy power builders are almost always up, never waiting for them and if I am I have Holy Prism as a filler on a 20 sec CD. I am a multi top 100 world parsing ret pally in 4.3. I am still theory crafting, but comment on what you think about mastery vs. Haste as ret.

  2. #2
    This may be correct, as I've noticed since the buff to Inquisition just how important it is to keep it up for the extra 10% crit. And building the 3 holy power to start Inq is needed.

    I may have to try a Haste forged build on beta right now im Mastery stacked.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by spinalc0rd View Post
    I may have to try a Haste forged build on beta right now im Mastery stacked.
    Please do. I'm not on beta and would like to see just how much of an impact it has on CS in Mists - I want to know about CS specifically since it's the only ability affected by SoB on live, and thus the only useful comparison. I've been thinking that Haste>Mastery is the way to go and to hell with crit; the buff to Inq even seems to justify that theory.
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  4. #4
    Blessing of Might gives us a huge mastery buff anyways on beta, so going into haste you still have a lot of mastery with might alone. At the moment I have CS down to a 4 second cooldown and Judge to 5.4 seconds. Having Exo for more holy power, Holy prism and TV (when at 3 holy power) makes those abilities up every time you need them. The only time you are waiting for an ability is when Exo is on full CD, Holy prism is on CD and you are not at 3 holy power, which occurs far less than you would think.

    Also, when using holy avenger (the new zealotry) if you have long CD's on Judge, CS and Exo, that ability becomes worse. Currently when I have holy avenger up I am never waiting on a holy power builder to give me the buff bonus (insta 3 holy power).
    Last edited by Snuxx; 2012-07-01 at 01:36 AM.

  5. #5
    Hmm I'm curious and need some clarify..
    Does Hammer of righteous suck that much to not be used? since it give a Holy Power it would help to get the 3rd one needed for our rotation (except if there is some change I didnt see)

    I didn't really read about theorycraft for lvl90 talents. You guys are talking about Holy prism. I always though it was and aoe dps/heal ability. but it seems that you guys are saying it give 1 Holy Power? Is Execution Sentence any good?

    If Haste seems good for faster cd on our ability. Will it still better in pvp than mastery?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jangkun View Post
    Hmm I'm curious and need some clarify..
    Does Hammer of righteous suck that much to not be used? since it give a Holy Power it would help to get the 3rd one needed for our rotation (except if there is some change I didnt see)

    I didn't really read about theorycraft for lvl90 talents. You guys are talking about Holy prism. I always though it was and aoe dps/heal ability. but it seems that you guys are saying it give 1 Holy Power? Is Execution Sentence any good?

    If Haste seems good for faster cd on our ability. Will it still better in pvp than mastery?
    HotR is on the same CD as CS, so you can only use the one or the other and not both, just like how Ret is on live with CS/DS. As far as I am aware, Prism does not generate HoPo (not on beta, so can't confirm), but it's being used as a filler spell for while builders are on CD. Also, with some very rough math, I think it's the best DPM ability for Ret in ST situations, though the formula for ExSent on WoWhead's MoP calculator seemed very awkward and may have caused some error with my numbers.

    For PvP, I think mastery and crit are still gonna be king for Ret. With the crit buff to Inq and the new SW, Ret's are liable to be mobile howitzers and you're probably gonna want to make it so that you hit as hard as possible instead emphasizing a smooth rotation.
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  7. #7
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    haste won't win especially with 4 set t14. with sanctified wrath.

    Crit is certainly the loser though.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2012-07-01 at 05:16 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Grognard View Post
    HotR is on the same CD as CS, so you can only use the one or the other and not both, just like how Ret is on live with CS/DS. As far as I am aware, Prism does not generate HoPo (not on beta, so can't confirm), but it's being used as a filler spell for while builders are on CD. Also, with some very rough math, I think it's the best DPM ability for Ret in ST situations, though the formula for ExSent on WoWhead's MoP calculator seemed very awkward and may have caused some error with my numbers.

    For PvP, I think mastery and crit are still gonna be king for Ret. With the crit buff to Inq and the new SW, Ret's are liable to be mobile howitzers and you're probably gonna want to make it so that you hit as hard as possible instead emphasizing a smooth rotation.
    Thx Grognard didnt know about HotR and CS sharing Cd.

  9. #9
    what else are people thinking?
    Last edited by Snuxx; 2012-07-08 at 05:42 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuxx View Post
    bumping this to get more input
    Just leaving this here.
    General posting guidelines
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  11. #11
    I also would like to know. ATM for my ret paladin i am sitting 2k mastery (which yields pretty nice results), and the haste threshold is wayyyy to big for met 2 actually take advantage of SoB on live. For the beta, can you list how much haste do you need to actively lower the CD/GCD down to where its an optimal increases for overall hp generation.

    I.E. Since CS is base 4.5 cd, how much would you need 2 get it down 2 3.0
    HoW is base 6 second...etc..

  12. #12
    I have been favoring haste personally. However, I just did some math Haste vs. Mastery. 300 Haste= .03 faster CD on CS. 300 Mastery= About 1.05% additional damage. The question now is: which is more beneficial in a long fight?
    Last edited by Snuxx; 2012-07-08 at 05:43 PM.

  13. #13
    I want to preface this entire post by stating that I am not big on math and that any math I do is quite possibly flawed, or flat out wrong. That said, I think we're gonna have the same issue in MoP that we do on live with Sanctity of Battle and haste scaling.

    If 300 hst = .03s, then we need to find out how many of those 300 hst packets will be equal to 1.5s to bring CS down to 3s. So, 1.5s/.03s = 50 hst packets, each of which is 300 hst; thus, 300 x 50 = 15000 hst to reach a 3s CS.

    Now, I think we need to keep in mind that a 3s CS is the zen of SoB for Cata, as it was the only source of Holy Power up until 2pT13; in MoP, with most everything generating HoPo and benefiting from SoB, haste may outpace mastery since it will mean we can push more buttons faster and not have to worry about being starved for HoPo.

    On the other hand, mastery means a good chunk of extra damage from two of our strongest abilities, so someone far better at math is going to have to look at it all and see how they pair off. If we assume a mere 2:1 increase in stats from T13 to T14, we're looking at, say, at least 5000 of our "main" secondary stat and 2000 of our "other" secondary stat. With my math above, 5k haste would become .5s off CDs; however, using 300 mst = 1.05% Hand of Light, that same 5k rating would become about 17% HoL damage.

    ...In thinking a little further, we only have two reliably quick (as in, less than 10s CD) sources of HoPo - CS and Jud. With the 5k hst example, they'll become 4s and 5.5s respectively. This means we would have about a global for the next CS to use Inq/TV, assuming Exo on CD. If haste converts to reduced weapon swing time at the same rate, a 3.6 speed weapon becomes 3.1 - which reduces the AoW proc chance to closer to 1 chance in 15s as opposed to 1:18, which could also be seen as one chance to reset Exo per cast versus one chance in two casts.

    My personal conclusion, looking at this, is haste > mastery, but there's still plenty of time for things to change between now and release.

    EDIT: I have been completely forgetting to take into account that Blessing of Might now gives us a crap-ton of free mastery. Gearing for mastery using the 5k example, the 8500 mst at 1.05% per 300 becomes almost 30%; the 3500 from BoM alone, is about 13%. The 2k "other" stat from above, when turned into mastery, would be 7% for a total of 20% with BoM...SO, yeah, still thinking haste > mastery.
    Last edited by Grognard; 2012-07-08 at 07:41 PM.
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  14. #14
    Ya haste > mastery is my preference.... however, I think Anaxie (who is now banned) made a good point in that when we get 4 piece T14, Mastery will be better, as well as going with Sanctified Wrath. Only time will tell. I am still making spread sheets and figuring this out.

    I believe that I will be going with Haste until 4 piece tier 14.

  15. #15
    Brewmaster AutomaticBadger's Avatar
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    I have, and probably always will, believed in reforging to Haste baring extreme circumstances. Frankly while Mastery was always attractive reducing the cooldown of the only skill that generated HP was better. Unless I see a fight that has a burst window of less than 30 seconds, or so since I forget tendon length, I don't need the spike that Mastery stacking would achieve.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutomaticBadger View Post
    I have, and probably always will, believed in reforging to Haste baring extreme circumstances. Frankly while Mastery was always attractive reducing the cooldown of the only skill that generated HP was better. Unless I see a fight that has a burst window of less than 30 seconds, or so since I forget tendon length, I don't need the spike that Mastery stacking would achieve.
    Mastery was more steady damage than haste, ever since Hand of Light mastery was added to the game. If you tell me you have been using haste all this time, well.. You've been doing it wrong, and not performing the full potential of your damage.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by AutomaticBadger View Post
    I have, and probably always will, believed in reforging to Haste baring extreme circumstances. Frankly while Mastery was always attractive reducing the cooldown of the only skill that generated HP was better. Unless I see a fight that has a burst window of less than 30 seconds, or so since I forget tendon length, I don't need the spike that Mastery stacking would achieve.
    Since the Hand of Light change, I've preferred the slower HoPo generation for the heavier hits. I'd rather wait an extra fraction of a second for my next HoPo so that the CS to which it is attached and the resultant TV are that much stronger.
    I am Grôgnárd, the one and only!

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  18. #18
    I took a break from the Mastery vs. Haste and theory crafted the options of going about CD usage (Avenging Wrath, Holy Avenger, and Guardian of Ancient Kings). Here is a picture of the 2 best options I came up with. It appears you would do more damage by going with the first option, what do you guys think?

    http://i.imgur.com/Zi1W2.png

  19. #19
    On live I go for crit while leaving myself with 13 mastery points, on beta however...mastery all the freaking way. Haste is alright to have but, i'd rather hit like a truck than get a .5 second CD reduction of course that number is made up so don't take it literal. Heck I minus well reforge haste to crit in my eyes it's still the least valuable attribute.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Grognard View Post
    I want to preface this entire post by stating that I am not big on math and that any math I do is quite possibly flawed, or flat out wrong. That said, I think we're gonna have the same issue in MoP that we do on live with Sanctity of Battle and haste scaling.




    Now, I think we need to keep in mind that a 3s CS is the zen of SoB for Cata, as it was the only source of Holy Power up until 2pT13; in MoP, with most everything generating HoPo and benefiting from SoB, haste may outpace mastery since it will mean we can push more buttons faster and not have to worry about being starved for HoPo.

    On the other hand, mastery means a good chunk of extra damage from two of our strongest abilities, so someone far better at math is going to have to look at it all and see how they pair off. If we assume a mere 2:1 increase in stats from T13 to T14, we're looking at, say, at least 5000 of our "main" secondary stat and 2000 of our "other" secondary stat. With my math above, 5k haste would become .5s off CDs; however, using 300 mst = 1.05% Hand of Light, that same 5k rating would become about 17% HoL damage.

    ...In thinking a little further, we only have two reliably quick (as in, less than 10s CD) sources of HoPo - CS and Jud. With the 5k hst example, they'll become 4s and 5.5s respectively. This means we would have about a global for the next CS to use Inq/TV, assuming Exo on CD. If haste converts to reduced weapon swing time at the same rate, a 3.6 speed weapon becomes 3.1 - which reduces the AoW proc chance to closer to 1 chance in 15s as opposed to 1:18, which could also be seen as one chance to reset Exo per cast versus one chance in two casts.

    My personal conclusion, looking at this, is haste > mastery, but there's still plenty of time for things to change between now and release.

    EDIT: I have been completely forgetting to take into account that Blessing of Might now gives us a crap-ton of free mastery. Gearing for mastery using the 5k example, the 8500 mst at 1.05% per 300 becomes almost 30%; the 3500 from BoM alone, is about 13%. The 2k "other" stat from above, when turned into mastery, would be 7% for a total of 20% with BoM...SO, yeah, still thinking haste > mastery.
    sorry for amssive quote but as far as im aware haste is a percentual decrease in swing/casting-timer or cooldown on the spells it affects so a 0.5 sec decrease in CD for CS would be a bigger decrease in the CD for judge since judgement has a longer base cooldown and it would also be a lesser decrease in the swingtimer cause of the swing timers 3.6 sec being less than CS 4.5. I recently got back to the game after being absent for about a year though so i might be wrong but i asume that the haste formula on wowwiki is still legit http://www.wowwiki.com/Haste
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