[Megathread] Path of Exile

[Lysah]

I don't sympathize at all, as I'm sure people have guessed =p
Games change, players change with them. Always how it's been. Only thing I wish GGG would have done is take a look at some obviously weaker things and buffed them to give us something else to look at this patch. And that's the real problem. Nerfing builds is fine, even breaking builds is fine, assuming they open others up. When you have X builds and they make an update and we go from X to X-10 builds, people are going to be understandably upset.

[Redblade]

I don't sympathize at all, as I'm sure people have guessed =p

And that's the real problem. Nerfing builds is fine, even breaking builds is fine, assuming they open others up.

This is where I think you go wrong in the discussion about Incinerate, it doesn't just break a build but it removes the ability to negate a counter to the skill it self.

Best comparison would be that GGG removes half of the life regeneration from the passive tree and you arguing to just "deal with it"...it's changes the fundamentals of how the skill works in the game. If all that happened was that the build it self got screwed and all you had to do was alter it accordingly then it wouldn't have been an issue, that's what happened the last two passive tree changes.

[Cyclone Jack]

My only real issue with the patch is the change to Acrobatics. Its now an evasion archer based keystone, instead of just an evasion based keystone (because ranged obviously needs much more survivability than melee /s). The plus-side, I get to save 5 points on my evasion melee characters, the down side is that they are noticeably more squishy and I'm not sure where to spend those extra 5 points (I'd go for health, but there are no nearby health nodes to get). Ah well, I'll just have to be even more cautious and accept a few more deaths from time to time.

[Lysah]

This is where I think you go wrong in the discussion about Incinerate, it doesn't just break a build but it removes the ability to negate a counter to the skill it self.

Best comparison would be that GGG removes half of the life regeneration from the passive tree and you arguing to just "deal with it"...it's changes the fundamentals of how the skill works in the game. If all that happened was that the build it self got screwed and all you had to do was alter it accordingly then it wouldn't have been an issue, that's what happened the last two passive tree changes.

They have removed quite a bit of life regen from the tree, people still manage to run RF. Unless you're talking about some other build. If they removed ALL the life regen it would be terrible, but incinerate is not at that level of unviable. Still does huge damage for little investment. And I'm pretty confident that if you used life leech with purity of lightning and a topaz flask and cybil's you wouldn't have issues, even with a paltry 30% spell block. I'm not sure what the base damage of thorns is late game but it would have to be four digits just to beat that level of defense, let alone kill it instantly. If that's not enough, take out GMP so you hit with one attack instead of 5. Still too much? Remove cast speed and echo and replace with other damage gems so you attack slower and for more damage. If you do all this and still die in under a second I'll sympathize, otherwise you are not trying hard enough to play around it.

[Redblade]

And I'm pretty confident that if you used life leech with purity of lightning and a topaz flask and cybil's you wouldn't have issues, even with a paltry 30% spell block. I'm not sure what the base damage of thorns is late game but it would have to be four digits just to beat that level of defense, let alone kill it instantly. If that's not enough, take out GMP so you hit with one attack instead of 5. Still too much? Remove cast speed and echo and replace with other damage gems so you attack slower and for more damage. If you do all this and still die in under a second I'll sympathize, otherwise you are not trying hard enough to play around it.

I'm sorry but that's probably one of the dumbest things I read...name one other skill that needs to take those kinds of measures just to be used against normal white and blue mobs...

[Gumboy]

This is where I think you go wrong in the discussion about Incinerate, it doesn't just break a build but it removes the ability to negate a counter to the skill it self.

Best comparison would be that GGG removes half of the life regeneration from the passive tree and you arguing to just "deal with it"...it's changes the fundamentals of how the skill works in the game. If all that happened was that the build it self got screwed and all you had to do was alter it accordingly then it wouldn't have been an issue, that's what happened the last two passive tree changes.

I get that you are mad that an absurdly op build got nerfed, but it HAD to be. Incinerate/block is still playable, and mappable, it is not impossible to play. How do you think other builds that had counters felt all along? Some builds have had to skip certain packs for pretty much the entire games life...now incinerate has to, and the world is falling?

Incinerate was by far the easiest build I've ever played in an action rpg. Passive defenses, very strong damage, essentially nothing you had to do to seperate yourself from anyone else playing block/spblock/incinerate.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm sorry but that's probably one of the dumbest things I read...name one other skill that needs to take those kinds of measures just to be used against normal white and blue mobs...

You mean one certain TYPE? A lot of builds without ondar's guile or a shield have a ton of problems with porcupines in large groups. Give Ondar's guile to all!

[Fencers]

How about we don't split hairs over semantics?

Well, that's not actually semantics. It's a pretty important distinction.

One states de-synchronization is an intended result. Further because video games must be programmed, that de-synchronization is programmed into the game explicitly. This is to say desync is an expressed design choice.

The other states that de-synchronization is the result of other factors which are an intended result and are programmed for explictedly. Such as the design wanting collision to occur under a specific set of parameters as is the case and intent of POE, which may cause de-synchronization as a result. That is to say that de-synchronization is the result of design choices.

I intend for this specific thing to occur.

I intend for this specific thing to occur which causes another thing to occur as an unintended result.

It is the case with regards to GGG and Path of Exile that they are okay with the latter because they see their actual intent (collision mechanics, for example) as greater &/or worth the side effect of de-synchronization.

These are two vastly different positions. They are also factual. Meaning that their validity is proven by mathematical process that is absolute to the result experienced. A video game's operation is objective. Your relation to that operation is the only part that is subjective.

Game balance is always a really tricky thing, especially now that the game is rolling out PvP.

Two things: 1. all game balance is transitory if the game is in active live development. Concern as such is both temporary and ultimately irrelevant. 2. PVP has been in the game since beta. PVP received greater structure in how one can engage in the already existing PVP modes, however.

[Redblade]

You mean one certain TYPE?

I don't know how you play but I sure as hell don't clear slow enough to inspect each and every pack to see what type they are...I make my builds strong enough to deal with any dangers I choose to encounter.

A lot of builds without ondar's guile or a shield have a ton of problems with porcupines in large groups. Give Ondar's guile to all!

So they pick up Ondars...problem solved. Incinerate used to pick up block to scale spell block, now that option is taken away, at least to make a meaningful difference.

[Lysah]

I don't know how you play but I sure as hell don't clear slow enough to inspect each and every pack

Exactly the problem. This is a player issue, not a design issue. Slow down and be more careful. The game shouldn't be designed so that you don't have to be careful, that is expressly against the intent of the developers and if you have a build that can clear without actually looking at what you're killing it very obviously needs to be nerfed so that it is killable. Sounds like well deserved nerfs to me.

You are essentially say it should be possible to make a build that cannot be killed by anything in the game. That is absurd. Actually, I would accept that, if it cost all the currency in the world. Rainbow nuke is pretty strong but it costs like 400 exalts. Incinerate builds cost like 2, less than the price of a weapon alone for most other top builds. That's the other half of the coin.

[Redblade]

Exactly the problem. This is a player issue, not a design issue. Slow down and be more careful. The game shouldn't be designed so that you don't have to be careful, that is expressly against the intent of the developers and if you have a build that can clear without actually looking at what you're killing it very obviously needs to be nerfed so that it is killable. Sounds like well deserved nerfs to me.

If the game was designed like this, especially for builds with 50ex+ in gear, the game would be dead ages ago. And I never said that you wouldn't need to be careful but instead that you can't possibly be expected to run up and check what each pack of mobs are and then decide to attack or not. Any build relying on leech for example would die instantly then.

You are essentially say it should be possible to make a build that cannot be killed by anything in the game.

No that's not what I'm saying at all, I'm saying you should be able to build to counter what's out there and attack any and all white and blue mobs without fear of instantly falling over dead. There are more than enough mechanics that can kill you if you play carelessly or stupid.

For example my current build only uses two passives and CwDT+Immortal call+Increased Duration to achieve that. The incinerater used around 15-20 passives and multiple uniques just to achieve the same thing.

Actually, I would accept that, if it cost all the currency in the world. Rainbow nuke is pretty strong but it costs like 400 exalts. Incinerate builds cost like 2, less than the price of a weapon alone for most other top builds. That's the other half of the coin.

My Incinerate char had more than 50ex with of gear...also my crit ST and Wander was by far more powerful, the wander would basically one-shot anything on screen and the ST char could run uber without any problems, something my incinerate char never could due to the heavy physical damage in the second fight.


Edit: Still waiting for that skill btw...

[Lysah]

Well we all know crit ST is the height of broken at the moment.

[Redblade]

Well we all know crit ST is the height of broken at the moment.

But all builds have a counter...or what was it again?

And still no mention of that skill...just going to assume you can't find one that requires such measures for basic use.

[Gumboy]

So what do you want them to do? Massivelly buff incincerate? Rofl they were already broken for an entire league, now you want it broken again?

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So they pick up Ondars...problem solved.

Yeah, i'm sure every single build wants to branch over there and get that

You sound like you are mad they took a broken op toy away. It was broken op and broke the meta. It is fixed now. Are there other problems? Yes.

[Redblade]

So what do you want them to do? Massivelly buff incincerate? Rofl they were already broken for an entire league, now you want it broken again?

Personally I'd want to remove lightning thorns as it's redundant with CB being added to the main game, a mechanic much better as a counter for fast attacking builds. There are several ways to go about fixing the issue though.

Incinerate has been the same since it was introduced, it only became popular last league, it did however get buffed a lot by the redesign of witch and shadow areas.

Yeah, i'm sure every single build wants to branch over there and get that

I didn't want to pick up all that block as incinerate but I had to, same as the guy needing Ondars have to...

You sound like you are mad they took a broken op toy away. It was broken op and broke the meta. It is fixed now. Are there other problems? Yes.

No I'm annoyed that they screwed one skill over when they nerfed block, if I really want to play broken OP builds I can just play my ST or wander that are, by far, more OP than incinerate ever was.

[Lysah]

But all builds have a counter...or what was it again?

You don't see me saying crit ST is legit, do you? In fact I've said like three times in the past few pages that it needs nerfs, as does ondar's in general, because it makes people immune to all of their designed counters.

And I don't know about incinerate only just becoming popular, I have seen dozens of incinerators every single league for the past year and a half.

[Redblade]

You don't see me saying crit ST is legit, do you? In fact I've said like three times in the past few pages that it needs nerfs, as does ondar's in general, because it makes people immune to all of their designed counters.

So basically you want the game to become unplayable, gotya...

And I don't know about incinerate only just becoming popular, I have seen dozens of incinerators every single league for the past year and a half.

There has been some playing it but it wasn't widely popular before last league.

[Fencers]

I agree Corrupting Blood is a more effective counter to "many small hits" if only because it can be prevented by the player; staunching, letting stacks fall off, slow/heavy hitting skills, etc. Not just by "not attacking", per se. The major problem with LT in relation to Incinerate is that an actual counter was simply overkill- either one melted mobs instantly in which case LT is irrelevant or one could mitigate damage (block, leech, res, conversion) in such a way as to make LT irrelevant still. Which were only effective with Incinerate but with any other "fast" skill like self cast POH Arc-er or Barrage users.

Lightning Thorns kinda sucks in it's current form. Although I do not hate LT as a concept, but the ways we mitigate damage in POE can be sorta one-sided at times.

[Lagwin]

Seriously though i've not seen lightning thorns in ages despite seeing the arcmages plenty of times, i'm sure it was nerfed a while back to not be cast so often and it went from being something that was almost always cast by every single arcmage to well dose it even exist in the game anymore.

[Lysah]

Manni almost instagibbed himself with ball lightning on a pack of blackguards with thorns up last night

Of course, that was the only time the entire night we saw the buff.

[nbm02ss]

Frozen Sky got fixed, and surprise mobs can not longer have the Frozen Sky mod. Time to do maps.