1. #7101
    Herald of the Titans PraisetheSun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    The Kingdom of Astora
    Posts
    2,727
    Quote Originally Posted by xpyre View Post
    Ok. I guess I overstated "crap" in my first post. I've just seen contradicting information and no one can agree.
    The issue here is that the only real consensus in the community is that there is no consensus. You'll find 40% haste-mastery proponents like Anaxie and Bear, you'll find 50% haste-crit users like Zardox and Dakeshi, and I'm sure there are other preferences out there. The fact of the matter is that with TTT, all three of our secondary stats are extremely close to each other in terms of value past 40% haste, and almost any combination past that point works well enough to defend using.

  2. #7102
    Excellent reply, thank you. As to the 40%, is that before buffs? Attack speed count for that?

  3. #7103
    Warchief Thete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Scunthorpe
    Posts
    2,230
    Quote Originally Posted by xpyre View Post
    Excellent reply, thank you. As to the 40%, is that before buffs? Attack speed count for that?
    Attack speed has no effect.
    Retribution Paladin
    Twitter
    WoW Youtube channel with general raiding advice, vlogs, general interest and detailed Retribution Paladin guides.

  4. #7104
    I have seal of the forgotten kings(hc) and asgorithan blood seal(hc). Which would you exchange for devilfang band (hc wf)? I'm personally thinking exchanging asgorithan because of the overload of expertise, then again I'm only a mortal

  5. #7105
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    That one place
    Posts
    1,686
    Quote Originally Posted by KittysVerdict View Post
    I have seal of the forgotten kings(hc) and asgorithan blood seal(hc). Which would you exchange for devilfang band (hc wf)? I'm personally thinking exchanging asgorithan because of the overload of expertise, then again I'm only a mortal
    Yes, replace devilfang with asgorathian for your aforementioned expertise reason. The more exp you can gem instead of strength, the better.
    "You little hoochees!" - Daos, Lord of Terror

    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    "NEENER-NEENER RETS ARE WIENERS."

  6. #7106
    The Patient Prometheous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    311
    Garrosh down! Maybe now I can catch up on valor?

    I hope next tier there are less ways to pad on fights :/

  7. #7107
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Norway, Trondheim
    Posts
    6,603
    Quote Originally Posted by Prometheous View Post
    Garrosh down! Maybe now I can catch up on valor?

    I hope next tier there are less ways to pad on fights :/
    Padding is always going to be around in some form, up to you if you want to participate in it or not. As far as I'm concerned it's pointless and doesn't prove anything.
    9thorder.com | Recruiting exceptional players!

  8. #7108
    Padding can prove some things. It's really just up to you to decide if you care about the things it proves or not.

  9. #7109
    Quote Originally Posted by Relimash View Post
    Padding can prove some things. It's really just up to you to decide if you care about the things it proves or not.
    Proves what exactly?

  10. #7110
    Quote Originally Posted by Calimon-ZJ View Post
    Proves what exactly?
    Proves that people would go out of their way to scumbag on a progression fight. You aren't going to rank by pure padding, this teir it comes down to strats and pretty much picking who you want to scumbag the adds. Padding can prove very few things many of which - aren't very good things to prove about yourself as a cooperative player.

  11. #7111
    Raidbots is much better. It shows every kill and the Percentile of your dps (and remembers it!). You see how often someone is good, which is a very important information. But you don't see the strat and you don't see wipes, so you can be a failer and wipe the raid every third attempt and nobody knows.^^ And of course you have to keep the gear in mind. People in bad guilds can be good, but they don't have the gear to compete with you. A "very good" skill meter doesn't exist.

  12. #7112
    Blademaster Titanbane's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Sydney, Aus/ Vancouver, Canada
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Confuse View Post
    Raidbots is much better. It shows every kill and the Percentile of your dps (and remembers it!). You see how often someone is good, which is a very important information. But you don't see the strat and you don't see wipes, so you can be a failer and wipe the raid every third attempt and nobody knows.^^ And of course you have to keep the gear in mind. People in bad guilds can be good, but they don't have the gear to compete with you. A "very good" skill meter doesn't exist.
    Warcraft logs does percentiles, and I must say, it is sooo much better than raidbots. Take patchwerk fight like iron jugg. You can see every ret ho has done more dps on that fight than you, look at who in that category has similar gear and a similar kill time, and look at their ability breakdown to see what they are doing differently that is working so well.

    Or a fight like Malkarok- is the higher ranked ret padding on the adds? Is their guild killing it 2 minutes faster than yours? does that ret have 10% more haste and less mastery than you? or is it a rotational thing?

    I would also add that padding on progression is the most useless thing that can be done, as it is entirely taking away dps from elsewhere. For example, warcraft logs shows on heroic garrosh things like "28 million unnecessary damage done to adds in p1" which suggests the boss could be pushed that much faster. Are things like a t16 4 set proc doing aoe but also part of the single target rotation going to be a hindrance? No. Same goes for duel-wield frost dk using howling blast. And as far as im concerned, once that last boss is dead its pad pad city bitch, and along with that is getting competitive with rankings so as to stay interested in the game near the end of an expac. But that being said, no heroic raider should be ranking on a progression kill, and padding at that point is just preventing the real padding on fights after ra-den/garrosh etc is dead.

  13. #7113
    Warchief Thete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Scunthorpe
    Posts
    2,230
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanbane View Post
    no heroic raider should be ranking on a progression kill, .
    Not even the first ones to kill it? How does that work?
    Retribution Paladin
    Twitter
    WoW Youtube channel with general raiding advice, vlogs, general interest and detailed Retribution Paladin guides.

  14. #7114
    High Overlord Zardox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    154
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanbane View Post
    But that being said, no heroic raider should be ranking on a progression kill
    What do you mean by this?

  15. #7115
    Herald of the Titans PraisetheSun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    The Kingdom of Astora
    Posts
    2,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Zardox View Post
    What do you mean by this?
    I would assume he associates ranking with AoE'ing anything with a nameplate - behaviour that is generally frowned upon during progress.

    The fact of the matter, obviously, is that during progression every exceptional player should be ranking just by doing their job, since "cheese" parses won't make up a particularly large part of the sample pool yet, and simply pew-pew'ing boss at 95% efficiency should be enough to rank.

  16. #7116
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanbane View Post
    Warcraft logs does percentiles, and I must say, it is sooo much better than raidbots. Take patchwerk fight like iron jugg. You can see every ret ho has done more dps on that fight than you, look at who in that category has similar gear and a similar kill time, and look at their ability breakdown to see what they are doing differently that is working so well.

    Or a fight like Malkarok- is the higher ranked ret padding on the adds? Is their guild killing it 2 minutes faster than yours? does that ret have 10% more haste and less mastery than you? or is it a rotational thing?

    I would also add that padding on progression is the most useless thing that can be done, as it is entirely taking away dps from elsewhere. For example, warcraft logs shows on heroic garrosh things like "28 million unnecessary damage done to adds in p1" which suggests the boss could be pushed that much faster. Are things like a t16 4 set proc doing aoe but also part of the single target rotation going to be a hindrance? No. Same goes for duel-wield frost dk using howling blast. And as far as im concerned, once that last boss is dead its pad pad city bitch, and along with that is getting competitive with rankings so as to stay interested in the game near the end of an expac. But that being said, no heroic raider should be ranking on a progression kill, and padding at that point is just preventing the real padding on fights after ra-den/garrosh etc is dead.
    This are actually useful features. I should probably try Warcraft Logs. Does it show the percentile for when you killed the boss or does it work like the rankings in WoL where you can only guess whether an old log was good back then or not?

    padding on progression is the most useless thing that can be done
    So true. Bench or kick them. If it isn't their main goal to kill the boss, they shouldn't be in a progression guild.

  17. #7117
    Blademaster Titanbane's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Sydney, Aus/ Vancouver, Canada
    Posts
    41
    Sorry, I didn't think it was that unclear- all I meant is that after the first few months of a patch, a heroic progression guild shouldn't be seeing people with 99th percentile parses on their first kill, if only by virtue of the fact that the people ranking higher than them have better gear, faster kill times, and more efficient execution; anyone beating a higher ranked player like that on a progression kill is almost definitely padding, and the people who just happened to get perfect procs/perfect execution on the kill attempt are in the minority. And padding on progression is taking away from boss damage, which means a longer kill, which means more time for potential mistakes or wipes or enrage to happen. If there are two adds up that you know the prot pally main tank will kill with avengers shield unglyphed, then using divine storm unprocced is just a waste of damage, regardless of whether you rank or not.

    Of course the first 150 rets to kill a boss will have a rank in the top 150 as of the time of their kill. But that 151st ret should not necessarily rank on their first kill if they play the same as the 150th, because every guild before them has better loot and (usually) a faster kill time. And like I said before, if you pad on that 151st kill to be in the top 150, then you are to an extent hindering progression.

  18. #7118
    High Overlord Zardox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    154
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanbane View Post
    anyone beating a higher ranked player like that on a progression kill is almost definitely padding
    Or they are better? It's not unthinkable that guilds have players performing on a higher level than their guild rank would suggest.

  19. #7119
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanbane View Post
    Of course the first 150 rets to kill a boss will have a rank in the top 150 as of the time of their kill. But that 151st ret should not necessarily rank on their first kill if they play the same as the 150th, because every guild before them has better loot and (usually) a faster kill time. And like I said before, if you pad on that 151st kill to be in the top 150, then you are to an extent hindering progression.
    Or the 151th has more luck/plays better/has better gear than someone in the top 150. I got for example a rank 1 on H Dark Shamans in the first heroic ID, because I got a HC weapon from Sha of Pride (and I had a N WF Thok trinket). If you are doing your job, getting a rank is a good thing. It doesn't necessarily mean that you did something wrong.

  20. #7120
    You'd be surprise how many people unknowgly/unconsciously pad. Just because they see 2+ targets their brain tells them what to do. On a fight like paragons - the biggest padding boss of this teir. If you look at a rets log and see one hotr - they are padding. Even if they are hitting parasites the argument can be made that those adds would have died anyway therefore it was padding. Holding 4p procs for adds is also -sadly- padding.

    All of us have padded. I'm 99% sure of it and if you have never padded -grats. On farm for this long? All of us are bound to have our moment in the padding sun.

    But the main thing is to remember this, if you're padding and it can wipe the raid? You're the worst person in your guild from that moment on.

    And if we wipe one more time on farm to paragons because we hit enrage? No. Just no pls.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •