Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[ChuckyFuS]

Hey ppl,i am in dilema which cloak too use from this two : raid finder version of Hisek's Chrysanthemum Cape or normal version of Cloak of Peacock Feathers ?curios bec i am not so sure if getting more haste is worth losing 30+str....

I'd go with the lfr version of the haste+hit one. 30 strength isn't a big loss compared to 200+ haste win.
But I'm not a theorycrafter so correct me if I'm wrong please.

[Vanderhuge]

Since it seems like some of us are hitting some sort of a Haste wall, we may want to start looking into any patterns that come up with the stat values of Haste and Strength. Right now at 14,138 Strength and 10,138 Haste I'm sitting at 3.16 Str : 1.34 Haste : 1.29 Crit : 1.25 Mastery. Swapping from primary Haste gemming to Strength gemming results in an 800 DPS gain. Seeing that the current BiS profile still has gemming priority at Haste > Strength, we may have some form of a soft haste cap, at which point it starts to quickly lose value without tier bonuses.

I'm getting the feeling that right around 6550 Haste is the magic number for those who lack tier bonuses - this is the point at which we're down to a 1 second GCD during a Bloodlust. It's right around this point where Haste is still slightly overtaking Strength with the 2:1 ratio, but quickly becomes equal and falls behind again. The tier bonuses also begin to push Mastery slightly ahead of Crit, but not so much that it's important.

[Deleted]

I have the same feeling, currently i'm at 14657 strength and 9767 which equals to 22.98% haste, i feel my last haste gemming hasn't really done much..
Gonna have to do some proper tc when i have time but for now it's just a feeling i have.Might just be Zorlok heroic that's a completely different boss compared to most MSV bosses, you do lose several gcd's on this boss at times.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Zor'lok isn't a great example of a fight where haste does well for us atm, haste should win 100% of the time on bosses where we have near 100% uptime on bosses and more importaintly Zor'lok is a bitch fight for anyone.

[Deleted]

That's true , except casters and ranged ofcourse.
Why did you put that pure haste in your helmet btw, 160 hit 160 haste and the bonus will give you alot more, seeing you're undercapped on hit aswell? Or is armory off or something? *nevermind you actually race changed i see ! :P

[Requital]

I'm not sure whether or not to gem full haste at this point, can someone check out my armory and give some advice?
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...oxeneta/simple

There's also one thing I'm curious about. I was in normal MV the first time yesterday, it went pretty well. Topped dmg meter every fight by a pretty large margin, but on the first boss, should I use DS, or TV. Not knowing much of the fight I used DS since I figured that the bosses shared health, I also used Light's hammer for that fight.

Strength in Red still seems to be pretty solid, Blue usually hit/haste and yellow pure haste. You can swap to haste/str but odds are you will end up with just ever so slightly higher dps with pure strength in reds.

[Deleted]

Got same situation as posters above - at ~485+ ilvl gear and above 9000 haste, haste value tends to drop below 0.5str in most simulations/cases. Also mastery & crit come close, so again just plain higher ilvl items may be a best option at higher lvls.

All in all, will try to change pure haste, str&haste and haste+hit to more str oriented gems on next raid.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

That's true , except casters and ranged ofcourse.
Why did you put that pure haste in your helmet btw, 160 hit 160 haste and the bonus will give you alot more, seeing you're undercapped on hit aswell? Or is armory off or something? *nevermind you actually race changed i see ! :P

Mainly because of hit cap being easy to reach as a Draenei and my current gear and the gear available has alot of expertise which was the reason why I race changed from human. My gloves and Head sockets change around depending on how much hit I need, same goes for cloak enchant, I don't strive to be within 5-10 rating of hit/exp cap but I try to maximize haste. I shouldn't be using 1set T14 but I still have 2 tokens left for this week that I'm going to spend on Glove and chest tier boss, if I don't get tier from token chances are I'll get them from regular loot. I still have my LFR will of emps legs in bag but hoping (more like praying) that I'll get tier 14 chest this week. Replaced shit pvp shoulders and LFR will of emps legs last week and dropped 1700 haste from 9.7k something to 8.1k something, felt so wrong!

[Sturmcantor]

Strength in Red still seems to be pretty solid, Blue usually hit/haste and yellow pure haste. You can swap to haste/str but odds are you will end up with just ever so slightly higher dps with pure strength in reds.

If strength in red is better than str/haste in red, blues and yellows should also be filled with str/hit and str/haste respectively.

[Deleted]

Mainly because of hit cap being easy to reach as a Draenei and my current gear and the gear available has alot of expertise which was the reason why I race changed from human. My gloves and Head sockets change around depending on how much hit I need, same goes for cloak enchant, I don't strive to be within 5-10 rating of hit/exp cap but I try to maximize haste. I shouldn't be using 1set T14 but I still have 2 tokens left for this week that I'm going to spend on Glove and chest tier boss, if I don't get tier from token chances are I'll get them from regular loot. I still have my LFR will of emps legs in bag but hoping (more like praying) that I'll get tier 14 chest this week. Replaced shit pvp shoulders and LFR will of emps legs last week and dropped 1700 haste from 9.7k something to 8.1k something, felt so wrong!

180 crit is still not something i'd pass on really with just a simple 160 and hit 160 haste gem.Can just get rid of the hit elsewhere if you're overcapped..

[cidic]

If strength in red is better than str/haste in red, blues and yellows should also be filled with str/hit and str/haste respectively.

That actually brings up something. Cause while I was messing around with simcraft lastnight I decided to swap gems in my imported toon. Going pure strength actually upped my dps in the sim by about 150-200 dps at points vs running straight haste gems.

[Sett]

I hope this weapon makes it live.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...MAH-on-the-PTR!

[Sturmcantor]

That actually brings up something. Cause while I was messing around with simcraft lastnight I decided to swap gems in my imported toon. Going pure strength actually upped my dps in the sim by about 150-200 dps at points vs running straight haste gems.

Once again, str vs haste gemming is a function of your particular character. Do NOT rely on anyone else's recommendations. Sim your own toon and make a decision based on that. For that matter, stat weights in general are a function of your particular character. The weights that get posted in guides are only snapshots of very particular gear setups out of the multitudes of possible gear setups in a tier.

[cidic]

Once again, str vs haste gemming is a function of your particular character. Do NOT rely on anyone else's recommendations. Sim your own toon and make a decision based on that. For that matter, stat weights in general are a function of your particular character. The weights that get posted in guides are only snapshots of very particular gear setups out of the multitudes of possible gear setups in a tier.

This is true which is why I always get new stat weights with new gear upgrades and never rely on what's posted as it does change. Jus tfound it odd that it had changed so much with a few things.

[Requital]

If strength in red is better than str/haste in red, blues and yellows should also be filled with str/hit and str/haste respectively.

If you can use the hit I agree but if you are over the hit cap and struggling to reforge it all away then I would suggest that it's wasted and we all know when reforging Hit loses value so if you are going on a point by point value hit should be valued @ 60% not 100% to give proper values since after all you are planning to reforge it away.

Problem is that is definitely gear based as well, Seems like 8-9K is where I find that strength starts catching up with Haste. What we need to find out which I suggested way back in cata was the break point in which lowering the CD/GCD of our abilities falls behind pure strength. It's there somewhere it's going to take effort to find but it's there.

It also is a value that will be ilevel based, regardless if you are in 6 heroic pieces and some blues if you have the same average ilevel as someone else there is very little chance that you are going to come up with some extremely different DPS numbers. In ilevel 490 gear you are likely to be around 14-14.5 strength, 11-13% crit, 17-19% haste. Unless you are just gearing in the strangest gear ever, a good example is my gear I have shit for luck.

All my gear has Expertise on it I'm sitting @ 2269 with all expertise reforged off, Sure I could swap gear for less strength and more haste but it's not a good swap I've run the numbers and the pure strength provides a little more dps.

[Sturmcantor]

What does using str/hit vs. haste/hit have to do with how much hit you have on your gear?

There is also no ilvl switchover for haste vs str - it depends on the individual gearset you are looking at. By the way, ilvl is not a good indicator of doing equal dps. If my ilvl is based on heroic Starshatter + Lei Shin while you have a heroic helm and cloak, my dps will be way higher than yours.

[Requital]

What does using str/hit vs. haste/hit have to do with how much hit you have on your gear?

There is also no ilvl switchover for haste vs str - it depends on the individual gearset you are looking at. By the way, ilvl is not a good indicator of doing equal dps. If my ilvl is based on heroic Starshatter + Lei Shin while you have a heroic helm and cloak, my dps will be way higher than yours.

Ok in your opinion there is no switch over, That is just your opinion just because you think so sure as shit doesn't mean it's right. That goes the same for me it is my opinion and I stand by it by i'm not forcing it down anyone throat so you don't need to either.

I never said hit/haste vs hit/str I said depending on how much Hit and how much Haste you have. This entire discussion has been about Haste vs Strength hit is only a factor because we use it for blue gems so I was commenting it's important to keep in mind hit isn't always the best stat to give full value when you know you are going to be reforging it. I don't know about you but when I'm valuing gear and stats I use point per strength or point per DPS which means over valuing hit gives you bad results.

Ilevel is a perfect indicator stat value will be the same no one said anything about DPS " In ilevel 490 gear you are likely to be around 14-14.5 strength, 11-13% crit, 17-19% haste. " where did I say anything about DPS? Why are you even comparing DPS when I'm talking about stats and ilevel?

Try to separate DPS from stats they mean nothing to each other in this conversation. Stats are based off of Ilevel and ilevel only has nothing to do with your weapon. DPS yes sure that is based on your weapon but i'm not talking about DPS it has far too many factors outside of our control.

Proper determination of Haste vs Strength and break points can be theory crafted that's all i'm after could careless about anything else.

[Sturmcantor]

I never said hit/haste vs hit/str I said depending on how much Hit and how much Haste you have. This entire discussion has been about Haste vs Strength hit is only a factor because we use it for blue gems so I was commenting it's important to keep in mind hit isn't always the best stat to give full value when you know you are going to be reforging it. I don't know about you but when I'm valuing gear and stats I use point per strength or point per DPS which means over valuing hit gives you bad results.

Ilevel is a perfect indicator stat value will be the same no one said anything about DPS " In ilevel 490 gear you are likely to be around 14-14.5 strength, 11-13% crit, 17-19% haste. " where did I say anything about DPS? Why are you even comparing DPS when I'm talking about stats and ilevel?

Try to separate DPS from stats they mean nothing to each other in this conversation. Stats are based off of Ilevel and ilevel only has nothing to do with your weapon. DPS yes sure that is based on your weapon but i'm not talking about DPS it has far too many factors outside of our control.

Proper determination of Haste vs Strength and break points can be theory crafted that's all i'm after could careless about anything else.

You said this: "Strength in Red still seems to be pretty solid, Blue usually hit/haste and yellow pure haste. You can swap to haste/str but odds are you will end up with just ever so slightly higher dps with pure strength in reds."

I responded by saying that you should use str/haste and str/hit in yellow and blue in that case instead of haste and haste/hit. You responded to me with something about how you shouldn't just gem hit depending on the hit on your gear, which has nothing to do with the point I was making.

As to when did you say anything about DPS, try the sentence immediately before the one you quoted to me.

Anyway, the stat distribution is dependant on which pieces you have at higher ilvl, not just the average ilvl. Again, having heroic chest/legs/weapon is a bigger stat boost than having heroic neck/ring/bracer.

Once again, a single "breakpoint" between haste and str gemming does not exist. It depends on how much haste you have, how much strength you have, what ilvl weapon you have, what your other stats are like, which trinkets you have.

[Requital]

Once again, a single "breakpoint" between haste and str gemming does not exist. It depends on how much haste you have, how much strength you have, what ilvl weapon you have, what your other stats are like, which trinkets you have.

Actually no none of what you said matters or is relevant, ilevel is based on stat distribution to gear. Weapon DPS has nothing to do with stat distribution at all. Your trying to attack a Haste conversation with weapon ilevel at the same time trinkets that don't have static haste have nothing to do with this conversation.

Once again your opinion, There is no break point that is just your opinion you have provided no proof. IMO your theory crafting leaves a lot to be desired. At the end of Cata you were gemming pure haste before it was valuable that is when strength was still the top stat. Now your gemming is all over the place who knows why. But how do you expect someone to follow your suggestion when you don't even seem to follow your own? Now Haste is the top stat to a certain level at which point Strength starts to surpass it. There is a value that happens doesn't matter if you want to admit it fact of the matter is it exists or your stat value wouldn't flip flop depending how high you were stacking.

Now I could careless about your DPS opinion, trinket opinion and gear opinion I didn't ask for it.

However I agree Str red, str/hit blue, str/haste yellow depending on how high your haste is currently and if you can reforge the hit away or not.

[Deleted]

Requital wrote

Problem is that is definitely gear based as well, Seems like 8-9K is where I find that strength starts catching up with Haste. What we need to find out which I suggested way back in cata was the break point in which lowering the CD/GCD of our abilities falls behind pure strength. It's there somewhere it's going to take effort to find but it's there.

So here´s something funny, after today after i got a new belt, i went to do another sim, and heres what i come up with, crit is now my best secondary stat above haste and mastery.
At this sim i was above 10k haste (10225)



Then i went to do another sim with my new ratings in place, and then this happended, now haste is first again, better than strength by 2 haste beter than 1 str... So there definitely is a point where haste drops likes a rock, somewhat a hard cap. (8584 haste in this sim)



Now for my 3rd sim run, i gemmed strength/haste - strength/hit and full str gems. This was at 7945 haste rating, and haste became even stronger at lower haste rating



SO, in between 9k - 10k haste we meet a cap where haste just drops below everything, and strength pulls ahead.
The next sim is at 9478 haste rating



So my thinking is that around 9300 haste, haste is equal to strength. and the higher i went from there the more haste dropped.
I also tryed switching a few pieces around from Heart if fear with diffrent stats and ilvl and came up with the same tendencies, that haste at around 9300 and above was a waste and should rather gem strength.

Also iam thinking, as it is dependent on what gear you currently have, it might be that you need x % haste of your strength?