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  1. #101
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    That's if we follow your data that Haste is > or = to strenght, which I'm not doing untill I see or hear from people who can put down the numbers in logs that support your current values.


    *edit*
    That's not something against you as a person, that's just being critical to data that I can't confirm myself or get confirmed by people I trust.
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2012-09-01 at 11:25 PM.
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  2. #102
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balhale View Post
    Except you are wrong about the gemming and the hit - that hit on the tier shoulders is worth zero. We are slightly over hit cap without the tier shoulders in full BiS reforging out of hit on every piece that has it. You then don't include the extra mastery on the off set shoulders (???).

    We will match those yellow sockets. 320 haste is flat out better than 160 strength. So add another 640 haste and 120 crit to the tier chest at the cost of 320 strength. Offset chest we gem 80 str 160 haste and 320 haste, so add 480 haste and 80 str instead of 240 strength and 160 haste.

    Offset shoulders:
    + 60 STR
    - 330.4 Haste
    + 302.4 mastery
    + 410.4 Crit

    Offset chest:
    + 114 STR
    - 42 haste
    +314.2 mastery
    -664.2 crit
    2 yellow sockets 120crit bonus < red and yellow + 120 strength bonus.

    I would have to plug the entire tier set into wowreforge and do it myself. Very skeptical on the too much hit but well see.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2012-09-01 at 11:30 PM.

  3. #103
    No, that's if haste is at least half as good at strength. Note that at 90 strength is stronger than haste with all of the haste on the T14H gear. You really want to say that our best secondary is less than half as good as strength?

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-01 at 04:31 PM ----------

    640 haste and 120 crit is not as good as 200 str, 480 haste, yes. But that difference isn't enough to make up for both the ilvl gap between the off set and tier chests and the gain from using offset shoulders over tier shoulders.

  4. #104
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    The red socket can be a fierce gem 80str 160haste calm down man. the 120crit socket bonus sucks to 120str on a budget standpoint.

    Then again the 120 socket makes up for the lost strength. The 120crit is gravy and at 90 i would prefer to have yellow sockets until i can hit 25% gear haste.

    I'm afraid it may be the shoulders afterall huntingbear. Yellow sockets are the new red :3
    I'm still going to plug it in tho. just incase.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2012-09-01 at 11:39 PM.

  5. #105
    Seriously, Requital and Anaxie, stop shitting on Balhale so much.

    He's not saying, flat out, 100% "SimCraft says XYZ so you guys suck", he's saying "SimC is currently modeling XYZ but you guys think JKL instead. But XYZ is a dps increase; can you find anything wrong in SimC?"

    You BOTH then proceed to call him six kinds of stupid for EVER suggesting XYZ because "We are teh 1337s and JKL is teh pwn."

    Seriously, the guy is trying to freaking HELP ALL RET PALLIES, is asking you to spend a little bit of time trying to firm up the SimC numbers, and you have the audacity to treat him like dogshit. He knows you guys are the best rets. He's trying to use you guys to make SimC better, not use SimC to prove you are wrong.

    All three of you are acting like brats when you should be working together to *gasp* make ret better. Req and Anax, you guys may not be programmers, but it's not hard to test and compare with some of the numbers generated by SimC. You guys could probably help him debug the whole thing in like two days if you weren't so busy telling him he's bad at WoW.

    You already figured out tonight that HoL is affected by CoE debuffs in (what appears to be) a bugged fashion. Now go find the other bugs and Balhale will fix his shit.
    Last edited by Zephur; 2012-09-01 at 11:39 PM.

  6. #106
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Allright, seemed insanely close to me with the chest coming out on top. It's still beta so never know it things change.
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  7. #107
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    That's if we follow your data that Haste is > or = to strenght, which I'm not doing untill I see or hear from people who can put down the numbers in logs that support your current values.


    *edit*
    That's not something against you as a person, that's just being critical to data that I can't confirm myself or get confirmed by people I trust.
    Remember when Exemplar told people go haste > crit and every person still went Crit. I do.

  8. #108
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    I still check myself on dummies, lfr and dungeons (different situations basicly) whenever I'm going to something I don't know. Even if it's from someone I "trust", I'd never take a unknown build to progress raiding :P
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephur View Post
    Seriously, Requital and Anaxie, stop shitting on Balhale so much.

    He's not saying, flat out, 100% "SimCraft says XYZ so you guys suck", he's saying "SimC is currently modeling XYZ but you guys think JKL instead. But XYZ is a dps increase; can you find anything wrong in SimC?"

    You BOTH then proceed to call him six kinds of stupid for EVER suggesting XYZ because "We are teh 1337s and JKL is teh pwn."

    Seriously, the guy is trying to freaking HELP ALL RET PALLIES, is asking you to spend a little bit of time trying to firm up the SimC numbers, and you have the audacity to treat him like dogshit. He knows you guys are the best rets. He's trying to use you guys to make SimC better, not use SimC to prove you are wrong.

    All three of you are acting like brats when you should be working together to *gasp* make ret better. Req and Anax, you guys may not be programmers, but it's not hard to test and compare with some of the numbers generated by SimC. You guys could probably help him debug the whole thing in like two days if you weren't so busy telling him he's bad at WoW.

    You already figured out tonight that HoL is affected by CoE debuffs in (what appears to be) a bugged fashion. Now go find the other bugs and Balhale will fix his shit.
    I'm trying to help ret pallies too. Did you notice the name of the thread + the cata ones?

    I already pointed out many bugs in just the last two days. Including poor trinket choices not using Lei Shins Orders + the CoE.

    So yes I improved his simcraft. He could help ret more if he would keep an open mind Pbad didn't run around these forums saying WRONG WRONG WRONG.

    As for 50haste vs 50strength on live. Dragon soul in a 7.5 min simulation does not compare to the reality which is a 2-3 minute fight. Those values do not work with the state DS is in and kill time plays a huge factor in value / devalue of stats.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2012-09-01 at 11:50 PM.

  10. #110
    Got a rogue to put up the poison spell dmg debuff. HoL benefits from it at 8% also but everything else benefits at 5%.

    Tested the internal target dummies more. Everything else is benefiting from their spell dmg debuff at 5% except mastery which is getting 0%.
    Last edited by Balhale; 2012-09-02 at 12:02 AM.

  11. #111
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    Good glad rogues work. Keep this hush hush then. Maybe we will even see a buff in a build in the next 3 weeks.

    Should this put us back to around 116k before the mastery nerf? I wish you could run the sim for a 10 minute fight I bet we get a whole new world of numbers or even 8 minutes.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-02 at 12:08 AM ----------

    Exorcism is still based on spell mechanics and hit/crit. it needs to be confirmed if GCD still works with spellhaste totem since its multiplicative it would go nicely with our 22% haste in mop.

    Note the GCD is what I'm talking about the cooldown is most certainly tied to SoB melee haste.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2012-09-02 at 12:10 AM.

  12. #112
    Anaxie:

    In my current gear, four minute fight.


    Yeah, I have no control over that front page sim. All my runs are at 15k or 20k iterations to smooth out the RNG. I'll do some 8 min and 10 min runs and let you know how that affects dps.

    In a 7.5 min 15k iteration sim I have ret at 115.6k with the debuff back and AW synced to trinket procs.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balhale View Post
    Anaxie:

    In my current gear, four minute fight.


    Yeah, I have no control over that front page sim. All my runs are at 15k or 20k iterations to smooth out the RNG. I'll do some 8 min and 10 min runs and let you know how that affects dps.

    In a 7.5 min 15k iteration sim I have ret at 115.6k with the debuff back and AW synced to trinket procs.
    20k is even too low always do 100k. If the fight is exactly 8 mins delaying for trinkets might clip off most or part of AW unless u can skip delay on 1-2 final wings sets but that is really something that cant be simmed. I think.

    I would like to see 8 and 10 minute with delay then without delay since I THINK delay has potential to clip a set eventually.

    I'm most interested in 10Minutes NO DELAY and 10 Minutes With Delay 100k iterations

    I hope requital deletes his post I'd hate for him to have a month ban. I'm insanely close to another 2 month one too.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-02 at 12:28 AM ----------

    115.6k with a full cooldown on wings clipped right as it comes off cd? Puts us right under wars, aff, and mages. Imagine if the Front page sim was 8 minutes flat.

    Except well mages aren't going to do that kind of damage on high swap and movement fights in mop plus that are all troll mages with 3 casts of zerker.

    I will laugh if enhancement can maintain that level of dps that class has an insane amount of pets and abilities to track so it's spot above ret is disregarded + horde racial and they love haste in mop.

    Pretty much we should be on par with dragon soul ret from the last entire year. Minus the terrible gurth proc rate and everyone having a legendary that was above us.

    Bonus points if u kept T11 prot now that guardian melees like a truck.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2012-09-02 at 12:40 AM.

  14. #114
    Correction: 113kish. My local version of the sim got the stupid mastery conversion reverted back to 2.1%. Fixing that again drops it.

    15-20k iterations is fine for getting dps values.

    For stat values absolutely you need 50k or 100k. Which I do use for stat value runs.
    Last edited by Balhale; 2012-09-02 at 12:33 AM.

  15. #115
    Stood in the Fire Cronosmash's Avatar
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    OK, I'm reading all the topics for a while and testing some stuff myself... and, well, since I'm Ret PVP I'm not that into rotation and best DPS since that's very situacional there but I come to think this:

    You guys have ever considered that we may have a couple of options for game style on Haste/Mastery? I mean, haste is better for some fights and mastery for others and some guys feel better playing haste and others mastery? And if one was suposed to be better then the other, then Blizz whould make it more obvious or something?

    I mean, Blizz is banging our heads saying that they want no more cookie cutter builds. We've been going crazy to maybe in the end find out that X, Y and Z play style have a 1k maybe 2k DPS diference and to make it to the top is SO HARD that the guy using X that suposed to be the top choice goes lower that the guy using Z (I mean, we have Mastery/Haste and we have HA/SW/DP) that's a lot of combinations. And the most important: Blizzard made CLEAR that there should be no "Best way" that everyone should use/copy.

    OK, I'm not NEARLY as experienced ass you guys. But I think that with this in mind we can chill out a little and think a some more about play style, pick some nice combinations and go from there. I'm sorry if I'm just wasting your time telling this stuff, I have a lot to thank you guys for all your effort.

    Tnx a lot, really. I'll keep reading and spreading the knowlege to our Ret friends.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balhale View Post
    Correction: 113kish. My local version of the sim got the stupid mastery conversion reverted back to 2.1%. Fixing that again drops it.

    15-20k iterations is fine for getting dps values.

    For stat values absolutely you need 50k or 100k. Which I do use for stat value runs.
    113k is fine I guess. It's just like pre patch tho, besides RNG and gurthalol dps relied on kill time which frequently changed with % nerfs. 113k is our worse end of 50% of potential kill times, wonder what the other one looks like :3 cant wait.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-02 at 12:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronosmash View Post
    OK, I'm reading all the topics for a while and testing some stuff myself... and, well, since I'm Ret PVP I'm not that into rotation and best DPS since that's very situacional there but I come to think this:

    You guys have ever considered that we may have a couple of options for game style on Haste/Mastery? I mean, haste is better for some fights and mastery for others and some guys feel better playing haste and others mastery? And if one was suposed to be better then the other, then Blizz whould make it more obvious or something?

    I mean, Blizz is banging our heads saying that they want no more cookie cutter builds. We've been going crazy to maybe in the end find out that X, Y and Z play style have a 1k maybe 2k DPS diference and to make it to the top is SO HARD that the guy using X that suposed to be the top choice goes lower that the guy using Z (I mean, we have Mastery/Haste and we have HA/SW/DP) that's a lot of combinations. And the most important: Blizzard made CLEAR that there should be no "Best way" that everyone should use/copy.

    OK, I'm not NEARLY as experienced ass you guys. But I think that with this in mind we can chill out a little and think a some more about play style, pick some nice combinations and go from there. I'm sorry if I'm just wasting your time telling this stuff, I have a lot to thank you guys for all your effort.

    Tnx a lot, really. I'll keep reading and spreading the knowlege to our Ret friends.
    XYZ can always be simmed and proved better. That is exactly what we did with the Final two tiers of rets dps talent choices. They have their strengths and weaknesses but because of T14 4 set Sanctified wrath wins by a landslide.

    Stats values aren't even close at 90 haste wins. Simply because we need more fillers for dead gcds and faster gcds = more gcds to fill. Haste is very good it's the stat it was ment to be at the launch of cata but they botched that badly.

    Trinket and Talent choices can and will change on some fights with gimmic mechanics or required burst phases. but for the first tier it's pretty much set in stone because they favored one talent with the set bonus

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-02 at 01:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Balhale View Post
    Correction: 113kish. My local version of the sim got the stupid mastery conversion reverted back to 2.1%. Fixing that again drops it.

    15-20k iterations is fine for getting dps values.

    For stat values absolutely you need 50k or 100k. Which I do use for stat value runs.
    This is with the 5% spell value or 8%.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2012-09-02 at 12:55 AM.

  17. #117
    That's with 8% on hand of light.

  18. #118
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephur View Post
    Seriously, Requital and Anaxie, stop shitting on Balhale so much.

    He's not saying, flat out, 100% "SimCraft says XYZ so you guys suck", he's saying "SimC is currently modeling XYZ but you guys think JKL instead. But XYZ is a dps increase; can you find anything wrong in SimC?"

    You BOTH then proceed to call him six kinds of stupid for EVER suggesting XYZ because "We are teh 1337s and JKL is teh pwn."

    Seriously, the guy is trying to freaking HELP ALL RET PALLIES, is asking you to spend a little bit of time trying to firm up the SimC numbers, and you have the audacity to treat him like dogshit. He knows you guys are the best rets. He's trying to use you guys to make SimC better, not use SimC to prove you are wrong.

    All three of you are acting like brats when you should be working together to *gasp* make ret better. Req and Anax, you guys may not be programmers, but it's not hard to test and compare with some of the numbers generated by SimC. You guys could probably help him debug the whole thing in like two days if you weren't so busy telling him he's bad at WoW.

    You already figured out tonight that HoL is affected by CoE debuffs in (what appears to be) a bugged fashion. Now go find the other bugs and Balhale will fix his shit.
    The guy isn't HELPING anyone out with anything he is pointing fingers and acting like he is right about everything when someone tells him something is wrong he acts like an egotistical maniac. I tried to call a truce on it and say let by gones be gones he still acts petty, I'm done helping him with anything. You want to jump on his bandwagon go right ahead I could careless.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-02 at 06:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronosmash View Post
    OK, I'm reading all the topics for a while and testing some stuff myself... and, well, since I'm Ret PVP I'm not that into rotation and best DPS since that's very situacional there but I come to think this:

    You guys have ever considered that we may have a couple of options for game style on Haste/Mastery? I mean, haste is better for some fights and mastery for others and some guys feel better playing haste and others mastery? And if one was suposed to be better then the other, then Blizz whould make it more obvious or something?

    I mean, Blizz is banging our heads saying that they want no more cookie cutter builds. We've been going crazy to maybe in the end find out that X, Y and Z play style have a 1k maybe 2k DPS diference and to make it to the top is SO HARD that the guy using X that suposed to be the top choice goes lower that the guy using Z (I mean, we have Mastery/Haste and we have HA/SW/DP) that's a lot of combinations. And the most important: Blizzard made CLEAR that there should be no "Best way" that everyone should use/copy.

    OK, I'm not NEARLY as experienced ass you guys. But I think that with this in mind we can chill out a little and think a some more about play style, pick some nice combinations and go from there. I'm sorry if I'm just wasting your time telling this stuff, I have a lot to thank you guys for all your effort.

    Tnx a lot, really. I'll keep reading and spreading the knowlege to our Ret friends.
    There will be a number of fights where stat values could change but no one will re-gem for it. Reforging is possible since someone will have that Yak. Those will be things we find out when it's a live fight you can't really sim those properly you can come close but certainly won't be exact.
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    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  19. #119
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    Hey Anaxie, can you clarify something for me?

    If the 2 piece T14 is more TV damage, wouldnt it be beneficial to then choose the lvl 75 talents that directly improve your output of TV's? As far as Sanctified Wrath goes, its burst cannot seem to come close in comparison so using HA while your Guardian stacks jump up and then using AW for an extra HP generator during 20 sec. Maybe i'm missing a mastery proc trinket which can make SW hammer spam worth the while, but otherwise it doesnt seem to logically pull ahead.

    I think its just that i am using HA at lvl 85 with Creche. Any crit trinket + HA is insane burst, especially when your Exorcisms are hitting for 30% more base damage and critting off of that. So then my question remains: does SW compared to HA depend on a proc trinket or is it just a raw benefit due to the 4 piece.

    Edit: Can anyone also find a decent sim for lvl 90 t14H? Simcraft is not calculating properly and i would like to refer to a decently accurate SIM.
    Last edited by Saferis; 2012-09-02 at 04:03 PM.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saferis View Post
    Hey Anaxie, can you clarify something for me?

    If the 2 piece T14 is more TV damage, wouldnt it be beneficial to then choose the lvl 75 talents that directly improve your output of TV's? As far as Sanctified Wrath goes, its burst cannot seem to come close in comparison so using HA while your Guardian stacks jump up and then using AW for an extra HP generator during 20 sec. Maybe i'm missing a mastery proc trinket which can make SW hammer spam worth the while, but otherwise it doesnt seem to logically pull ahead.

    I think its just that i am using HA at lvl 85 with Creche. Any crit trinket + HA is insane burst, especially when your Exorcisms are hitting for 30% more base damage and critting off of that. So then my question remains: does SW compared to HA depend on a proc trinket or is it just a raw benefit due to the 4 piece.

    Edit: Can anyone also find a decent sim for lvl 90 t14H? Simcraft is not calculating properly and i would like to refer to a decently accurate SIM.
    SW lets AW be up for 30 seconds with a 1:35 second cooldown which is 33%-40% uptime depending on kill time. AW is 20% ALL DAMAGE, HA is 30% HP abilities.

    HA doesn't affect: Seals, Censure, auto attack, Execution sentence, hand of light damage from TV, or TV the main ability you will hit. That is over 50% of the our damage and only 18 seconds.

    AW also has such an amazing cooldown and bufftime that it lines up with BOTH of our proc trinkets every single time we use wings. Wings will also last the entire duration of pots / guardian or you can have a full 30 Seconds of 20% strength with wings if u T11 4set the guardian for 45 seconds on pull.

    A Small benefit most players won't notice is you can simply store up 5 free holy power to unload on a fresh inqu and tv when Hammertime
    ends.

    Also more importantly HoW hits harder then TV and does mastery. Ontop of this HoW SHOULD double dip hand of light increasing it by an additional 5%.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2012-09-02 at 06:05 PM.

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