Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[anaxie]

I'd bet that the crit/haste sword is going to drop from Megaera if it's going to be a loot drop from any specific boss.

Megera for sword Durumu for spear is my guess.
Mostly because their tables are fairly uninteresting atm for Str dps.

I am totally digging Jin'rhoks loot table tho.

Random stats socket bracers and Blade lord super belt 2.0
the bracers and fact they have sockets should blow away H:elite: bracers even if 2/2d

I feel like the best sustained buff they could give to ret is re-implement the old sparkle hands vengence but have it stack on Templar strikes. 2% damage per stack since I would say a 6% overall buff to rets damage is pretty much the sustained we are missing.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

don't know why the racial discussion goes on, GC has said that racials are outdated and they'd wish people chose race because of lore and looks instead of that 1% benefit etc. It wouldn't suprise me if racial bonuses went away in the next expansion pack.

[Bonkura]

Some concerns I'd raise as a Ret for next raid would be to fix Tortos and Megaera.

All DPS will probably have to switch to the turtle adds on Tortos to get them down in time to hit the boss before he shits on the raid. They move around really fast and knock you away. During progress I'm sure all guilds will try stack ranged here.

On Megaera you get a debuff which might get dropped in the raid basically disabling melee from even hitting the boss if it ends up being dispelled there. A slow dispel is gonna screw you over as well. You also have to somehow stand behind the head you're nuking to avoid the breaths. If you're in a guild with healers who have bad awareness or just struggling to keep the raid up they will eventually ask to replace melees with ranged.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I feel like the best sustained buff they could give to ret is re-implement the old sparkle hands vengence but have it stack on Templar strikes. 2% damage per stack since I would say a 6% overall buff to rets damage is pretty much the sustained we are missing.

2% per stack up to 3 (6% total) on any finisher, could add in wog + eternal flame (3 hopo) if they don't want us to be punished by being support... but yeah I agree.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 02:29 PM ----------

Some concerns I'd raise as a Ret for next raid would be to fix Tortos and Megaera.

All DPS will probably have to switch to the turtle adds on Tortos to get them down in time to hit the boss before he shits on the raid. They move around really fast and knock you away. During progress I'm sure all guilds will try stack ranged here.

On Megaera you get a debuff which might get dropped in the raid basically disabling melee from even hitting the boss if it ends up being dispelled there. A slow dispel is gonna screw you over as well. You also have to somehow stand behind the head you're nuking to avoid the breaths. If you're in a guild with healers who have bad awareness or just struggling to keep the raid up they will eventually ask to replace melees with ranged.

I'm just saying this now, if you got a heavy melee roster and you play a ret. level a new character and try to convince your officers to gear boost your alt so you can reroll it. Not gonna be much use (if any) for a ret pala in the next tier, I can think of 2 maybe 3 fights where the extra raid (magic) cds would help but the ammount of target switching, cleave/aoe and melee unfriendly fights is gonna kill our value.

[anaxie]

I havn't swapped from ret TBC - Now I'm hardly going to let this hiccup of racial imbalance and a ranged gimmic boss make me reroll. The advice is poor and only makes the situation worse. If you rerolll you may aswell call it GG with how MoP gear levels work.

And please T11 and T14 were said to be melee unfriendly. From my PoV that was hardly the case aside from Elite Protectors which was still quite simple.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 01:51 PM ----------

don't know why the racial discussion goes on, GC has said that racials are outdated and they'd wish people chose race because of lore and looks instead of that 1% benefit etc. It wouldn't suprise me if racial bonuses went away in the next expansion pack.

Please they say this after making Pandarens well fed racial

It's free money and they know it. they will never gut the racials.

[Bonkura]

I'm just saying this now, if you got a heavy melee roster and you play a ret. level a new character and try to convince your officers to gear boost your alt so you can reroll it. Not gonna be much use (if any) for a ret pala in the next tier, I can think of 2 maybe 3 fights where the extra raid (magic) cds would help but the ammount of target switching, cleave/aoe and melee unfriendly fights is gonna kill our value.

If you play 10-man as Ret you have to be fucking awesome at it, especially since you will most of the times fight for the only melee spot. In 25-man you have different %'s to play with so you can spread your DPS accordingly. T15 doesn't look that bad for Ret IMO, it's just couple of fights where the spec might be seen as useless. With 14 bosses I personally wouldn't get upset about having to sit out for couple of fights.

When it comes to gearing I'd just grab as many heroic pieces as possible no matter stats and save DKP/coins for weapons. Waiting for BiS items will just make you go insane after couple of months in this raid.

[anaxie]

Which is exactly why I mentioned any BIS list should be made around trinkets and armor set and the first HTF wpn u roll forced into the gearset.

This tier, I'm not worried about the bosses. I'm worried about the cluster fuck 30+ item loot tables or Ra-dens 50+ items table + Thunderforge mechanic. And then the VP system will return midtier making any gearing options a regret filled nightmare. I won't be surprized if some players quit the game or guilds die because of this next tier.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I've been pala since naxx 25man, I've been ret since late T11. I've never considered going away from the paladin class, it's what I know and what I do best. That said I'm not gonna sit high on my horse and refuse to reroll to keep my raid spot if I'm asked to do by my gm/raidleader, there's not alot of room for melee in T15 and the reason ret was slightly strong in T14 was because of the % damage increase fights like Garalon, Elegon and so on + the fights where frequent magic raid damage was present which made devo auras really strong. Sadly that's not the case in T15, look to fights like Empress and Sha heroic... that's more in line of the style of encounters we'll see in T15. Expect yourself to be the first spec to be benched if your raid lacks dps or don't need any more melee.

And yes, if people go away from ret or guilds don't use rets then that's a shame. But you can't blame the rets for not wanting to be benched or be the first to sit out on progress because our spec has many issues with little to no ideas and feedback from the game developers. Just sticking to the spec because we've done it for the past 5 years or whatever is good and honorable don't get me wrong, but there's a time to shout out to the devs that things are NOT fine and by the looks of it that shout has to come in the form of not playing the spec and guilds not using it. Think back at shamans in firelands, then look at shamans in dragon soul. As far as I can see that's the situation rets are moving into now except we're not heard, so yeah I'm considering going holy or rerolling. Infact I've considered taking a fucking break untill rets are atleast heard and given some fucking changes that help our issues instead of pvp changes that "might" make a small differance.

There's a ton of community feedback and ideas on how to make ret more apealing and better performing and what do devs do? Shrug it off and play the card "Many would not like this" over and fucking over again and it's getting on my nerves. Then they dare come out with T15 set bonuses that bring back the RNG that absolutely NOONE wanted and was the whole "scream and shout" issues that we had in cata? Not to mention that the T15 bonuses will require alot more micro management for not a significant damage increase? Devs have no idea on where to move rets or they have difficulty "fixing" us because of pvp (yes it's an old excuse but it's fucking true). I'm just tired of sitting around waiting and hoping for something to work with, all rets can do now is compete with eachother on meters and pray for a boss with a huge damage % increase to be somewhat wanted as a dps in raids. I've used the excuse "you don't bring rets to raid for their dps" for months now... well now there's not a huge benefit to bring us for out "utility" either, prot and holy are both better at their role jobs than ret is and once you move past 3-4 devo auras and hand spells they drop their value so if you have a prot and 2-3 holy paladins in a raid the chances that you'll need a ret for it's utility is slim to none.

Devs aren't listening to our feedback on forums or atleast not coming out with changes that reflect the issues with the spec (in pve and pvp) so what's it gonna take for them to get their head out of their mage and warlock buffing asses? Rets being benched? Rets rerolling? Rets fucking quitting the game completely? I don't know and honestly I'm starting to not care, it's not fun having to give up raid spots whenever we run into dps issues. I'm not gonna be suprised if top 20 guilds run with 1 or none rets next tier and 10 mages/locks combined.

/class balance HOO-fucking-RAY!

[anaxie]

First top 20 guilds will likely be all trolls rolling a horde comp so ret is out by default for factors not even related to class balance. Secondly if ret survived T11 which was a worse situation then we are in right now i doubt the class is going anywhere. You are making mountains out of molehills at this point huntingbear.

as a small note being a paladin since TBC vs being a paladin since naxx who STARTED ret in T11 midtier is a far different scenario. You see to deal with the classes shortcomings in BC and come out viable and to say the class is unviable and not raid viable now is nothing but an insult.

PvE ret is in a far better place it has ever been. We only need a 5% or so sustained bump, some aoe love, and maybe a unique raid cd more iconic then the basic devotion aura. Auras are a staple of paladins and a mastery 10 second raid aura would be quite acceptable.

Thats it. The class isn't even that far behind.

And you are worried about some retarded hydra boss with some fixate and aoe zone mechanics. That shit is childs play and one of the most basic gameplay elements in raiding.

[Bonkura]

Which is exactly why I mentioned any BIS list should be made around trinkets and armor set and the first HTF wpn u roll forced into the gearset.

This tier, I'm not worried about the bosses. I'm worried about the cluster fuck 30+ item loot tables or Ra-dens 50+ items table + Thunderforge mechanic. And then the VP system will return midtier making any gearing options a regret filled nightmare. I won't be surprized if some players quit the game or guilds die because of this next tier.

Sounds like the focus should be on figuring out stat priorities with what values you want to reach and when. Like strength's and haste's influence on mastery and crit as well as weapon damage I gues. If you don't think it will be as simple as stacking haste then focus on mastery. I don't know how Ret's SimCraft APL is and how much confidence you put in it, but it doesn't seem like the Ret community has relied on it so far. There has to be some math involved somewhere, though.

I'm glad I've never cared much for loot. It's nice to get new items but I hate how important it is. I try not to focus too much on it except from being updated on what I need and why.



Sticking to a class/spec out of pure stubbornness/pride seems like it would just harm you in the end. I hope you still enjoy the game and it's worth it. I'll probably always have a Ret alt because it's what I started playing with my first char but I'm never going to sacrifice being able to play on the level I want to play at just because my class isn't good enough for it.

[anaxie]

Sounds like the focus should be on figuring out stat priorities with what values you want to reach and when. Like strength's and haste's influence on mastery and crit as well as weapon damage I gues. If you don't think it will be as simple as stacking haste then focus on mastery. I don't know how Ret's SimCraft APL is and how much confidence you put in it, but it doesn't seem like the Ret community has relied on it so far. There has to be some math involved somewhere, though.

I'm glad I've never cared much for loot. It's nice to get new items but I hate how important it is. I try not to focus too much on it except from being updated on what I need and why.



Sticking to a class/spec out of pure stubbornness/pride seems like it would just harm you in the end. I hope you still enjoy the game and it's worth it. I'll probably always have a Ret alt because it's what I started playing with my first char but I'm never going to sacrifice being able to play on the level I want to play at just because my class isn't good enough for it.

How 2/4 pce T14 and T15 works and as long as haste has more of the GCD to reduce and we have 0 reason to crit <nevermind the often 10% crit rates with over 40% crit> the stat will always be dogshit. THe only reason crit was even considered in Cata was because Haste was just so fucking bad.

Esentially shortly checking items. Our stat %s will ALMOST the exact same haste/mast/crit ratio we have now with the extra rating ilvls tacked on. Haste should jump an extra 3% solely based on the large amount of sockets we will be gaining. And as Neldarie mentioned ealier if haste is somehow not good for you you're weapon is likely just dogshit. Weapon scaling THOUSANDS of damage between tiers is laughable for what it does to strengths value. Both haste and mastery will continue to push against the rating as a result even into the final tier.

Also, Bonk MY Ret is WoW to me. If I somehow lost my account to a random perma ban for some retarded reason. Or lost the paladin / unable to be recovered I would quit the game and never look back. I wouldn't even level a new paladin even if it was between expansions.

[Bonkura]

Haha, I do envy your devotion to your character. I just keep coming back with new accounts/chars/classes...

It seems crit is only good for specs that get some damage modification out of it. I have to say it's refreshing that haste has made such a strong comeback after how Ret was in Cata. So what you're saying for Ret T15 is basically keep stacking as much haste as you can possibly grab with gems etc then dump rest into mastery? I would also like to have some official view on using SimCraft as a guideline for stat weights. It really feels like the use of it has been avoided since MoP came out and I haven't really seen answer to why that is the case.

[anaxie]

Simcraft is avoided because it was very poorly implemented for MoP. General concensus was the the developer was extemely inept and lacked credability in the class unlike Pbad who did it for Cataclysm. It's kinda like what EJ turned into in Cata/late wrath

The developer being brand new to the class wouldn't listen to myself or Requital despite multiple attempts and problems pointed out while he posted how he was correct because he was the developer and we were wrong despite being proven correct and our longstanding history as pretty much 2 of the best rets in the world in the spec.

ALSO:

This ptr update has tons of raid craftables and new stuff we never saw incoming. Hopefully we get the bulk of the loot tables finished so a list can be hashed out.

The fact there are like most armor slots avail from 5.2 crafting raid materials I'm curious. I'm also still waiting on the T2 and T3 version of Lionheart 5.2 craftables to get a tooltip so i can see if the damn thing is even competitive.

Engineering lightning ingots have no CD on forge now tho on PTR. Stock up on living steel if u want to make a huge killing selling skyclaw mounts. Average prices of mats on AH now u could make a sky claw for under 10k. The widespread use of Ghost iron for... EVERYTHING next patch and the living steel being high demand again there should be a 300% markup easily.

[Zoaxlis]

Don't worry, there is always that one guy who undercuts by like 80%..... So yea... <3 Malfurion.

[Reith]

The fact there are like most armor slots avail from 5.2 crafting raid materials I'm curious. I'm also still waiting on the T2 and T3 version of Lionheart 5.2 craftables to get a tooltip so i can see if the damn thing is even competitive.

The blacksmithing axe is a much, much, much better choice if it turns out that the third version is competitive. haste/mastery as secondary stats on the axe vs hit/exp on everything else. Remains to be seen if those will be changed though.

[anaxie]

The blacksmithing axe is a much, much, much better choice if it turns out that the third version is competitive. haste/mastery as secondary stats on the axe vs hit/exp on everything else. Remains to be seen if those will be changed though.

I didn't look at nor care about stats. If the ilvl isnt 522 the weapons are worthless. Unless of course they are boe even in T3 form them i can make a few golds i suppose.

The weapon SHOULD be atleast that or even 528 N:TF quality. I mean it is blacksmith only and it's not like getting 1 of 4 2handers from a raid is exactly hard.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 09:48 PM ----------

Wowhead is claiming many of the items we don't see slotted on the loot table in my OP and the 2 BEST 2handers are bop trash drops and LFR failbag loot items YES! 522 item from lfr.

What the fuck is this shit? Make TWO crit main raid heroic weapons and one has 1700 hit. what the actual fuck.

If this is true hit forums in mass. Casters have TONS of options hunters have like 3, Dagger rogues? 3!

we have what? 1700 hit sword off 3rd boss and crit axe of final boss. JOY

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 10:42 PM ----------

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...?page=122#2422
PTR discussion thread

I posted about the situation with weapons, have a look about 10 casters options, 5 rogue options, 3 hunter options and... 2 strength 2handers.
Raise hell about this. We may not get the sustained we need even tho i make the simple suggestions in my post aswell. But we have got to make sure we have more then 2 2handed heroic options and maybe even get some goddamn loot ratings changed. We don't need 10+% hit. The situation with Ji-kuns trinket having 1700 may make ti completely unuseable by some classes just because of the terrible rating choice which easily could had been Mastery.

Please post. Please bring up 2handed option concerns and the Hit itemization that needs removed on trinkets unless the intend for handed specs to just fall behind because of terrible design options.

---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 12:21 AM ----------

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3861?page=1#13

The new PTR thread #3 they just put up.

Please for the love of god.

post about realistic sustained dps buffs.

5% 2handed damage
145-150% Crusader strike
315% baseline TV
20% mastery scaling bump
Templar verdict stacking damage 1% X5 for 5% damage

We don't need alot pick one or 2 of the above all are realistic buffs that could be implemented easily.

Please post about the Missing 2handed weapons.

Please post about the retarded amount of hit specifically the Malakk sword and the Ji-Kun feather. Maybe even the 1500 Expertise rep trinket.

These things need attention and changed badly.

---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 12:38 AM ----------

Fucking buffs 2 min baseline aw

[Deleted]

---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 12:44 AM ----------

not really sure what to make off it, guess it will be good with new 4 set, But just means we rely on our next tier's bonus's being better than other classes to just stay middle of the pack

[anaxie]

---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 12:44 AM ----------

not really sure what to make off it, guess it will be good with new 4 set, But just means we rely on our next tier's bonus's being better than other classes to just stay middle of the pack

Well SW is gonna stay best talent and between ultra tvs and hammer spam and of course the 2 set. Mastery is gonna be getting some good hot lovin. Atm I'm pushing GC for a 15% mastery rating scaling increase.

[Reith]

oh my god ghostcrawler actually came through for ret. I am stoked.

[Bombercloner]

I'm not following ret stuff as much as you other guys, but I am ret and making AW 2min baseline sounds amazing to me. Plus getting the buff to our seals while we still use the 4pc. I predict 2Pc t14 + 2Pc t15 will be better than 4pc tier14, but I am no expert. (not even close )