1. #2381
    Quote Originally Posted by Afarensis View Post
    Let's be honest here though Reith, if Reghame is being outDPSed by an assassination rogue that's been dead for two minutes he's just not playing Ret correctly.

    All I see in this thread is people QQing and pretending we're doing 20% less DPS than other specs while it's not even close to being that dramatic. I feel like there's a lot of players in here that are doing their rotation incorrectly, jumping on the forums and seeing that other people are complaining about Ret, and then deciding that it really isn't their fault at all, it's ret being bad.
    Most of these players would benefit a lot more from getting some gear upgrades and sitting on a target dummy for a while than typing long-winded posts about how "ret is so bad there's no point even bringing them".
    What exactly is your point? The data is heavily against you if you're talking about ret in general. Don't even say every Ret in the world is "doing their rotation incorrectly":

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/60/default/

  2. #2382
    1. never look at overall parses.
    2. Normal "doesn't matter", heroic is where the differences are seen.
    3. Ret has a couple fights where we can inflate numbers; Jin'rokh, Tortos adds, magaera adds and Ji'kun. Those fights are "cheesable" and makes number go way off what's fact.
    4. If you want to compare anything, anytime look at top parses who hasn't cheesed to get numbers. Example: heroic magaera the last spawn of adds (when 8th head has emerged) doesn't matter, any dps on them is WRONG.
    5. Every fight has one class or spec dominating on it because of the class mechanics, warlocks are sick strong this tier because of how the fights are made (and they are strong anyways). Rets are weak and the fights don't work well for them. It all adds up to numbers being what they are. The "power" of ret vs warlock for instance isn't as insane as it looks on raidbots, yes the numbers say that but it has a lot to do with how the fights are made aswell as how the classes work.
    9thorder.com | Recruiting exceptional players!

  3. #2383
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    1. never look at overall parses.
    Yeah, ignore that data. /rolleyes

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    2. Normal "doesn't matter", heroic is where the differences are seen.
    Again, ignore data? Normal may not have as much of an impact, but it still matters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    4. If you want to compare anything, anytime look at top parses who hasn't cheesed to get numbers. Example: heroic magaera the last spawn of adds (when 8th head has emerged) doesn't matter, any dps on them is WRONG.
    Well obviously, but that stems from a deeper problem with Ret's mediocre AOE. It could be worse, but it's nothing compared to some other specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    5. Every fight has one class or spec dominating on it because of the class mechanics, warlocks are sick strong this tier because of how the fights are made (and they are strong anyways). Rets are weak and the fights don't work well for them. It all adds up to numbers being what they are. The "power" of ret vs warlock for instance isn't as insane as it looks on raidbots, yes the numbers say that but it has a lot to do with how the fights are made aswell as how the classes work.
    So you're saying if an orange wasn't an orange, it wouldn't be an orange. Obviously - but it's an orange.

  4. #2384
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    What exactly is your point? The data is heavily against you if you're talking about ret in general. Don't even say every Ret in the world is "doing their rotation incorrectly":

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/60/default/
    My point that whining in a theorycrafting thread is counterproductive. The point of this thread should be to see how we can reach the maximum possible DPS for Ret, and if people want to whine, let them do it in the myriad of other threads on this forum. This thread should be whine-free and fact only.

  5. #2385
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Yeah, ignore that data. /rolleyes


    Again, ignore data? Normal may not have as much of an impact, but it still matters.



    Well obviously, but that stems from a deeper problem with Ret's mediocre AOE. It could be worse, but it's nothing compared to some other specs.


    So you're saying if an orange wasn't an orange, it wouldn't be an orange. Obviously - but it's an orange.
    1. No seriously, overall data tells you shit all. Overall data tells you more about the encounters than each spec, see numbers and every spec in top 5 is strong aoe/cleave/multi dot? Guess what, fights are going to be like that. See weak aoe/cleave/multi dot specs at bottom? guess what, most fights are going to be like that. Looking at overall doesn't tell you that ret is strong on Jin'rokh, overall also gets inflated by aoe fights/multidot fights and so on... Just ignore overall logs imo. They're about as useful as using world of logs to learn a spec...

    2. In normal compare to normal, "end content" isn't at normal and classes aren't balanced around normal. Same way as pvp isn't balanced around 2v2 or low ratings. If anything compare normal ret paladins with other normal ret paladins, on heroic any "unbalance" or difference between specs gets multiplied tenfold.

    4. Lets not make a fruit salad
    9thorder.com | Recruiting exceptional players!

  6. #2386
    The Patient Prometheous's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    318
    Why does it seem that ret "theorycrafting" has deluged itself into people fighting about how good ret is right now? Can we move on to actually talking about changes and how they affect us?

  7. #2387
    Quote Originally Posted by Prometheous View Post
    Why does it seem that ret "theorycrafting" has deluged itself into people fighting about how good ret is right now? Can we move on to actually talking about changes and how they affect us?
    Already did that. 10-11%.

  8. #2388
    Epic!
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    In Alpha Since 2004
    Posts
    1,543
    Quote Originally Posted by DWguild View Post
    If you're getting beat by someone who's been dead for 2 minutes, sorry that's not a problem of the spec. That's a problem with you being bad.
    Ret does need an increase and this is likely to be more than sufficient.
    Sure, its not like assassination rogues are top by a shit ton and rets at the very bottom or anything, I HAVE to be just terrible for a rogue to beat me like they should right? barring fights where my guild likes to stick me in the complete opposite area where rets might excel in i have plenty of 80-95% epeen ratings. its not an issue of who is bad or good at this game anymore for ret. Its rets shit and will be shit whether or not your good or not. these guys i raid with cant scratch my percentiles yet beat me by thousands of dps. that's an issue that we have.

  9. #2389
    Quote Originally Posted by Reghame View Post
    Sure, its not like assassination rogues are top by a shit ton and rets at the very bottom or anything, I HAVE to be just terrible for a rogue to beat me like they should right? barring fights where my guild likes to stick me in the complete opposite area where rets might excel in i have plenty of 80-95% epeen ratings. its not an issue of who is bad or good at this game anymore for ret. Its rets shit and will be shit whether or not your good or not. these guys i raid with cant scratch my percentiles yet beat me by thousands of dps. that's an issue that we have.
    It is hard to say as most guilds benched their Ret, as other melee do so much more dps and bring more utility. Gear a warrior or Dk but otherwise most guilds are carrying more range anyway. Locks,boomie,Fire mages once they get the gear needed, so why would anyone bring a ret? Not saying they shouldnt be allowed to raid but why carry a ret?

  10. #2390
    Epic!
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    In Alpha Since 2004
    Posts
    1,543
    That is the entire point of why no one likes how ret is ATM, if we gained some sort of raid utility that's actually noticeable and actually worked for most if not all the fights i think it would be understandable, but its not.
    Right now we have devo aura, which is 20% MAGIC DAMAGE, note that there are a lot of bosses that have raid damage thats not magic damage at all like quills or iron Qon's final phase. we don't bring much utility AND do bad dps to boot. there is a damn good reason why we don't get brought to many fights unless its 100% niche fight for us specifically.

  11. #2391
    It's ok, Rets can immunity for HM Lei Shen so at least 1 will possibly be brought. Good luck getting in for Ra'den though, lol.

  12. #2392
    Quote Originally Posted by Exertim View Post
    It's ok, Rets can immunity for HM Lei Shen so at least 1 will possibly be brought. Good luck getting in for Ra'den though, lol.
    And if you actually get brought in, any drops will go to the "regular" raiders lol.

  13. #2393
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    And if you actually get brought in, any drops will go to the "regular" raiders lol.
    Talked with Blacklisted about a month ago. Apparently he doesn't even have an MMO account. Maybe you should stop trolling my thread and also stop impersonating players. Thanks

  14. #2394
    So i still couldnt find proper answer for this (sorry if it was already answered somewhere and i missed it).
    Does our rotation changes in anyway with T15 4set? Do i always want to use my TV when its empowered? Like for example if i have empowered TV and im on 3 holy power and CS is off CD, do i want to pop the 3hp TV instead of CS?

  15. #2395
    I've been TVing at 3HP if my CS is off CD and 4pc is up so I don't potentially waste any future procs.
    Last edited by Exertim; 2013-04-15 at 11:08 PM.

  16. #2396
    Deleted
    I would use TV if you can get to 3 HP within the next 3 global cooldowns after so you dont lose any time waiting for CS to come back up. Plus in that Scenario you would just trade the chance of TV double proccing in the first TV with a chance that is happens for the next one.

    So basically if you will get exorcism or HoW of cooldown after the TV you should use it before the CS.

    An example of this would be: (with me just hitting 20% after the TV)

    CS(proc) - exo - judge - TV - CS - HoW - judge ...


    An example where I would use the CS before the TV:

    CS(proc) - exo - judge - CS - TV - judge - CS - TV

    If I had used the TV before the CS here I would not only have to wait for it to come back of cooldowns after my judgement I also would be using 2 CS before the next TV which just shifts the chance of double proccing to the next TV instead of the first one.
    Last edited by mmoc8668655a0f; 2013-04-15 at 11:58 PM.

  17. #2397
    Quote Originally Posted by Freppi View Post
    So i still couldnt find proper answer for this (sorry if it was already answered somewhere and i missed it).
    Does our rotation changes in anyway with T15 4set? Do i always want to use my TV when its empowered? Like for example if i have empowered TV and im on 3 holy power and CS is off CD, do i want to pop the 3hp TV instead of CS?
    Here you go:

    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    ... Rotation shouldn't change at all without cooldowns EXCEPT for 2 and maybe 3 targets (maybe 4 for the same reason as 3). Never use HOTR on 2 targets unless you got a Holy TV proc already and you're not at 5HP, and never use DS over Holy TV on 2 targets. Use DS on 2 targets only if you don't get a proc. DS still barely wins out on 3 targets, but if there's a high priority target, then Holy TV is more worth it anyway because the gain from Holy TV to DS on 3 targets isn't much, and from 3 to 4 is an okay gain but depending on how important that priority target is, Holy TV could win out on that factor alone over pure DPS.

  18. #2398
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Here you go:

    So what is the rotation for this tier. as so far with this 4set, im doing worse than previous tier. Its driving me insane

  19. #2399
    Are we still thinking that coining H megaera is the best chance at a shared loot weapon?

  20. #2400
    Fire the dev who did this tiers plate itemization, I'm almost at 12% hit.......... oh well, can't complain about the weapon dps.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •