1. #7081
    Stood in the Fire Weightlifter's Avatar
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    What reasons will there be to invite ret pallys at all when devo aura is going to be holy only and DKs will provide mastery buff?

  2. #7082
    For our good looks!
    Hopefully we'll get some decent ret info soon. Tired of seeing: "We think ret's in a good spot mechanically just need to tune the numbers!"

  3. #7083
    Bloodsail Admiral Fredzilla's Avatar
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    Buffing mastery has hardly been a big seller for us anyway. All we can hope is for some combination of degrees of:

    Our DPS actually being good, or at least good enough in applicable situations (burst, aoe, whatever)
    Our improved Sac clearing debuffs and being on a shorter cd than prot/holy is useful enough

    That, and outside of the bleeding edge of raiding, chances are that 100% of your guild's dps aren't performing at their max level, so if you play ret better than they play their class, you can probably earn your spot over them.
    "You little hoochees!" - Daos, Lord of Terror

  4. #7084
    Scarab Lord Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    What reasons will there be to invite ret pallys at all when devo aura is going to be holy only and DKs will provide mastery buff?
    20man raiding, warrior, rogue, DKs and shamans have raid cds of the melee specs with the current information. Ret, feral and monk don't bring anything comparable. Which classes will be more valuable?
    Tough one...

    At this point reroll...
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  5. #7085
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    our 4 set fills whatever globals you have empty (if any), this would also happen with 50% haste. Simple fact that with Inq being removed that's 1 less GCD we're pushed into using so you'll have even less to fill your things with, if we don't get one more ability to use on a 10-ish sec cd we're gonna be back where we were in cata.
    Well since we only use INQ at 3 HP, we can always just TV instead of it now, can't we?
    I haven't really paid attention lately so I might have missed some other changes, but if there is nothing else, our rotation should stay pretty much the same. The real difference is the removal of our current 4set.

    I'm not trying to say that we won't notice the drop in haste, but it's just the whole rotation being slower rather than being different (there aren't more empty GCDs for example). And this effect is not unique for ret paladins, most classes get either shorter casts, shorter GCDs or more resources in some other way making their rotation faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredzilla View Post
    That, and outside of the bleeding edge of raiding, chances are that 100% of your guild's dps aren't performing at their max level, so if you play ret better than they play their class, you can probably earn your spot over them.
    I don't like this argument.
    First of all, even if it was ok for the best player in your guild to play a weak class, it would still suck for the other 95 % of players.
    More importantly as long as you care about progression, it can be frustrating to know that you could have performed way better playing a different class. It doesn't really matter whether you are competing for world 1st, server 1st or trying to complete the tier before the next patch.

  6. #7086
    Scarab Lord Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    it's not MORE empty gcds (you don't have more) that's the problem, it's the fact that you spend LONGER in them. Not being able to do anything is boring as hell, just ignore all dps numbers when it comes to this discussion. Slow rotation AND being locked out of doing things for 1.5seconds and more is boring and bad design, drop SoO 4set (which we have to) and we'll need a new ability or a significant reduce in ability cooldowns for WoD. Most likely Exorcism/Art of War getting a proper remake to make it important.
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2014-04-19 at 11:54 AM.
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  7. #7087
    Quote Originally Posted by barial View Post
    With no snapshotting, trinkets with a 10 second buff duration (like evil eye of galakras) and spells such as execution sentence which takes 10 seconds to proc it's biggest hit... to get effective use of ES you'd have to just guess and pop it before the trinket activates. This class is already easy as shit, and now we're lowering the skill cap even more. Time to go warlock

    edit: also lol @ the holy damage TV which does 40% less damage than regular TV, but we have no Inq so it probably hits for less.
    I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here? We have one dot to snapshot, and that is the entire spec of aff.

    - - - Updated - - -

    At this point I just wish they'd throw us a bone on if they are going to change our talents or just some type of change.

  8. #7088
    Scarab Lord Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meiffert View Post
    First of all, even if it was ok for the best player in your guild to play a weak class, it would still suck for the other 95 % of players.
    More importantly as long as you care about progression, it can be frustrating to know that you could have performed way better playing a different class. It doesn't really matter whether you are competing for world 1st, server 1st or trying to complete the tier before the next patch.
    DPS isn't all, ret losing devo while other classes gaining shit makes me consider getting another class up to 100 before even gearing my pala once hitting lvl 100. Obviously things will change and still beta testing to be done etc but leaving raid cds for some classes and even adding a raid cd to mages? It's fucking bullshit, I'm a big fan of the hand abilities that paladins have and they'll be marginally stronger with 5 less people to concentrate on but they'll never be comparable to a 20% raid heal increase or a 15% increased HP pool for the entire fucking raid... I'm not mad about losing Devo, I'm mad that they removed raid cds from some but then added to others... what's the balancing team actually trying to pull here?
    9thorder.com | 14/14 Heroic 25-man | West 114 | Recruiting for Warlords of Draenor!

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  9. #7089
    The biggest problem I see is that we have to use a glyph spot to reduce incoming magic damage (sac).

  10. #7090
    The Patient Zabannith's Avatar
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    The only thing we can really hope for at this point is A) they are working on something big and it isn't ready yet, or B) our dps is going to be fucking monstrously high to compensate for the loss of utility ( people would flip their shit at us)
    New Ability: Renounce. When cast, Renounce permanently changes the Paladin into a Warrior.

  11. #7091
    Well the perception is that we will still have a lot of utility, which is trueish, in the sense that we still have bops and sacs, but that is situational and single target and not raid wide like other classes.

    Oh, and monks are getting something, a movement speed buff that blankets. Situational, yes, but something.

  12. #7092
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    our 4 set fills whatever globals you have empty (if any), this would also happen with 50% haste. Simple fact that with Inq being removed that's 1 less GCD we're pushed into using so you'll have even less to fill your things with, if we don't get one more ability to use on a 10-ish sec cd we're gonna be back where we were in cata.
    I for one would like to see Consecration back in the Retribution rotation. Not cata consecration ofc but like it is now for protection. Would also partially solve the lack of cleave dmg Ret pallys can do.

  13. #7093
    Bloodsail Admiral Fredzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meiffert View Post
    I don't like this argument.
    First of all, even if it was ok for the best player in your guild to play a weak class, it would still suck for the other 95 % of players.
    More importantly as long as you care about progression, it can be frustrating to know that you could have performed way better playing a different class. It doesn't really matter whether you are competing for world 1st, server 1st or trying to complete the tier before the next patch.
    I, personally, have never felt bad about my relative performance because I play ret instead of something else. It'd be kind of pointless to play ret at all if you're going to feel bad about doing it.

    Also, when I was doing 25s for the first part of SoO (through november, we got to 1 point away on beating H Spoils a few times), I was in a top 200 guild for 25s at the time (so, competent enough people in the raid), and I was often top 5 or top 3 for fights like norushen, jugg, nazgrim, malk, where we usually lag behind a lot of other specs overall. So you think that my raid leader should have been mad at me for not playing a better spec as well as I play ret, but not be mad at the other people in the raid who play better specs but not as well as I play ret? It might, in theory, suck for everyone else in the raid, purely in terms of dps, that I'm playing ret instead of a lock or something, but I'm pretty sure it will always suck more when some amount of the other people in the raid don't perform as well, regardless of spec. You're always going to encounter people who don't perform as well, on some degree, outside of the like top 100 or so.
    "You little hoochees!" - Daos, Lord of Terror

  14. #7094
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    DPS isn't all, ret losing devo while other classes gaining shit makes me consider getting another class up to 100 before even gearing my pala once hitting lvl 100. Obviously things will change and still beta testing to be done etc but leaving raid cds for some classes and even adding a raid cd to mages? It's fucking bullshit, I'm a big fan of the hand abilities that paladins have and they'll be marginally stronger with 5 less people to concentrate on but they'll never be comparable to a 20% raid heal increase or a 15% increased HP pool for the entire fucking raid... I'm not mad about losing Devo, I'm mad that they removed raid cds from some but then added to others... what's the balancing team actually trying to pull here?
    It's nothing new. Blizzard's clueless and inconsistent. It's like when they transferred Lesser Charms to the currency tab because of bag space complaints, and in the same patch put Dominance Offensive currency in our bags.

    The only thing we can really hope for at this point is A) they are working on something big and it isn't ready yet, or B) our dps is going to be fucking monstrously high to compensate for the loss of utility ( people would flip their shit at us)
    Lol no chance. Can you imagine an entire expansion of Ret paladins parsing at the top for nearly every encounter, which is literally what happened with warlocks in MoP? Not happening.

  15. #7095
    Stood in the Fire Weightlifter's Avatar
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    It's not good to be advertised as a support class when other classes who have higher DPS will also have more utility. But since some old vanilla/TBC developers are back, maybe it's their way of telling "go holy or GTFO"

  16. #7096
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    What reasons will there be to invite ret pallys at all when devo aura is going to be holy only and DKs will provide mastery buff?
    Mastery buff is blood only.

  17. #7097
    The Insane Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    It's not good to be advertised as a support class when other classes who have higher DPS will also have more utility. But since some old vanilla/TBC developers are back, maybe it's their way of telling "go holy or GTFO"
    I think that's a tinfoil hat theory to think we're going back to THAT.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple

  18. #7098
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabannith View Post
    The only thing we can really hope for at this point is A) they are working on something big and it isn't ready yet, or B) our dps is going to be fucking monstrously high to compensate for the loss of utility ( people would flip their shit at us)
    They wont change anything but damage and I'm starting to think we gonna have a nice damage. I only pvp so this is good to me, our utility is great pvp wise.

  19. #7099
    High Overlord PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I think that's a tinfoil hat theory to think we're going back to THAT.
    I agree. It seems much more likely that they're trying to say "reroll or GTFO." If anything, Holy almost has it worse than ret so far.

    In all seriousness, though, as soon as open Beta starts the devs need to be absolutely buried in post-upon-post-upon-post detailing just exactly how tired we are of their continued efforts to turn our class into a broken, unplayable piece of shit that nobody wants within 10 miles of a Mythic raid. The stuff they've pulled so far simply can't be allowed to go live without some sort of serious recompense.

    That last tweet by Celestalon that Bear posted in the WoD ret thread genuinely had me frothing at the mouth. How the actual fuck do they rationalize wanting to fix Fire and Fury's ridiculous crit dependency, whilst at the same time claiming that it's A-OK for ret to feel like shit to play until the last half of the expansion? Even Orwell would be impressed by that sort of ridiculous doublespeak.

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