1. #2681
    High Overlord Zardox's Avatar
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    What's wrong with ranking during progression? In my opinion that's the best time to get ranked. Cheesing a fight after progression isn't much to be proud of in my eyes.

  2. #2682
    I'm pretty sure Apex isn't mediocre dps Reith and I'm frankly getting fucking sick of it being thrown around. Ret is strong single target DPS. If you aren't then you just aren't top notch. Now sure you can't compete on shit like Durumu or council with classes that have long range explosive aoe and dots and thats ok. Fuck those fights anyhow noone cares about pad fights for parsing.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 12:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zardox View Post
    What's wrong with ranking during progression? In my opinion that's the best time to get ranked. Cheesing a fight after progression isn't much to be proud of in my eyes.
    Ranking is fine but playing risky on FARM content and wasting time is fucking retarded. Do you know how many Jin'rhok wipes we had to stupid shit before we threatened to bench players the entire first day if the raid died?

    Farm isnt progresson content. I don't need a lesson in doing High dps during progression I'm not a fucking idiot TBC wasn't yesterday been clearing raids in this game for a little while.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-05-10 at 12:22 PM.

  3. #2683
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Untill you're close to BiS there's not much point in trying to rank anyways, no ranks are guaranteed to stick untill you have a 541 wep 2/2 valor upgraded. Then ranks can be cheesed to fuck anyways by padding meters and such, rankings are fun but they don't matter shit...
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  4. #2684
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Untill you're close to BiS there's not much point in trying to rank anyways, no ranks are guaranteed to stick untill you have a 541 wep 2/2 valor upgraded. Then ranks can be cheesed to fuck anyways by padding meters and such, rankings are fun but they don't matter shit...
    I think I have this spat every tier then I sit at rank 1 on the best parsing fight every tier. Baelroc and Ultrax lasted about 3 months straight if you recall bear. Thankfull this tier has plenty so post progression content if i can get a 449 mastery weapon should be a blast.

    Sucks Buto is MIA and Req rerolled. Less competition and the spec's skilled players continues to dwindle.

    I think T14 was an overall bad parsing tier and made me lazy since I sat a good half the bosses for a break after that boss marathon.

    Only thing remotely considered a direct self controlled fight was blade lord, Empress, and to an extent Will Emperors even tho you could bomb the stack of adds to cheese the hell out of it at end not sure how that affected rankings on that fight since i never checked nor cared.

    Not sure if this post sounds like boasting or not. Those who have been around me a long time knows what I'm talking about and knows my intent from this post.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-05-10 at 12:43 PM.

  5. #2685
    High Overlord Jaling's Avatar
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    Looks like 5.3 is happening next reset. What will you all be upgrading with your first 3k valor?

    I haven't gotten into heroics yet, but I'll still be dropping valor on my trinkets (522 feather/spark) and weapon (522 council) at a minimum. I have a few other pre-heroic BiS items that won't get replaced for awhile, such as the BS boots and Iron Qon hands, and then any 522 tier.
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  6. #2686
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Only thing I really care about in WoL is looking at what other rets (and others if I'm raidwatching) are doing. Looking at damage done by spell, finding different talents/glyphs to use. I'm not ever going to cheese meters to get a rank, on Mag I'm on adds the entire fight (except the last head because that's fucking pointless and it annoys me to fuck when I see ranks where people have been whoring the last set of adds) on Tortos we changed our tactic to killing the bats this week and I got a rank 23 or something without being slightly close to optimizing it and still a 528 wep...

    Feel like that's a lot of the issue with WoL, people take one look at the top rank of their spec/class and copy that which makes more and more people cheese the encounter which makes other people in the raid having to pick up the slack...
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  7. #2687
    High Overlord Jaling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valex View Post
    I enjoy trying to rank regardless of my gear tbh (I know my gear may not ever get full BiS before next tier, so I have no choice either xD), keeps fights that I find boring, somehwat fun still

    Highest I've ever had is 20 on Horridon N, which is the last fight I thought I'd ever see a ranking on.
    I do too really. The only one I've ranked on is Jin'rokh, 10-man normal, in the mid 60s was my best.
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  8. #2688
    High Overlord Rikhx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Only thing I really care about in WoL is looking at what other rets (and others if I'm raidwatching) are doing. Looking at damage done by spell, finding different talents/glyphs to use. I'm not ever going to cheese meters to get a rank, on Mag I'm on adds the entire fight (except the last head because that's fucking pointless and it annoys me to fuck when I see ranks where people have been whoring the last set of adds) on Tortos we changed our tactic to killing the bats this week and I got a rank 23 or something without being slightly close to optimizing it and still a 528 wep...

    Feel like that's a lot of the issue with WoL, people take one look at the top rank of their spec/class and copy that which makes more and more people cheese the encounter which makes other people in the raid having to pick up the slack...
    None of my current #1's on Dark Animus and Iron Qon were cheesed in any way. Can you even cheese on DA? ._.

  9. #2689
    High Overlord Zardox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Only thing I really care about in WoL is looking at what other rets (and others if I'm raidwatching) are doing. Looking at damage done by spell, finding different talents/glyphs to use. I'm not ever going to cheese meters to get a rank, on Mag I'm on adds the entire fight (except the last head because that's fucking pointless and it annoys me to fuck when I see ranks where people have been whoring the last set of adds) on Tortos we changed our tactic to killing the bats this week and I got a rank 23 or something without being slightly close to optimizing it and still a 528 wep...

    Feel like that's a lot of the issue with WoL, people take one look at the top rank of their spec/class and copy that which makes more and more people cheese the encounter which makes other people in the raid having to pick up the slack...
    We should be careful with throwing around a word like cheese since it has no clear definition. For me cheese is increasing your own DPS in a way that significantly holds the raid back. This means that cheesing is dependant on your raid group as well. If you have the raid DPS to AoE during the three dog phase on Iron Qon go for it, you're not cheesing in my opinion. For me cheesing is a very flexible word that is different for each person since we are all in different guilds. Going by this definition cheesing isn't very prominent in the orange 25 man heroic Ret ranks.
    Last edited by Zardox; 2013-05-10 at 01:43 PM.

  10. #2690
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaling View Post
    Looks like 5.3 is happening next reset. What will you all be upgrading with your first 3k valor?

    I haven't gotten into heroics yet, but I'll still be dropping valor on my trinkets (522 feather/spark) and weapon (522 council) at a minimum. I have a few other pre-heroic BiS items that won't get replaced for awhile, such as the BS boots and Iron Qon hands, and then any 522 tier.
    Weapon -> Spark -> rest into heroic tier. Not upgrading my 2nd trinket slot until I have Feathers.

  11. #2691
    High Overlord Rikhx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Wrong question. The real question you should be asking yourself is, "am I running with mediocre DPS?" and if you're topping the chart or even close to it, you'll know you are.
    I really don't like this post of yours, you don't have much faith in your capabilities as a ret, do you?

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-5e...?s=2346&e=2885 - This is our latest Iron Qon kill, 3 dps got world #1 ranks including me, and this is only an example. Apex is far from mediocre dps, you guys just need to stop having this dumb mentality that ret paladins are shit, like everyone else thinks.

    This week I finally got gear on par with most of our top dpsers in our guild(Even still behind some), and I can 100% say that I surprised 90% of my guild concerning ret dps on most fights that I did this reset. With the 15% buff next patch we're gonna look pretty good on most fights, obviously not all cuz some fights are just dumb(hello council/durumu).

  12. #2692
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikhx View Post
    None of my current #1's on Dark Animus and Iron Qon were cheesed in any way. Can you even cheese on DA? ._.
    not saying or claiming that you cheesed :P I'm saying many of the high ranks on some fights are cheesed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 02:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zardox View Post
    We should be careful with throwing around a word like cheese since it has no clear definition. For me cheese is increasing your own DPS in a way that significantly holds the raid back. This means that cheesing is dependant on your raid group as well. If you have the raid DPS to AoE during the three dog phase on Iron Qon go for it, you're not cheesing in my opinion. For me cheesing is a very flexible word that is different for each person since we are all in different guilds. Going by this definition cheesing isn't very prominent in the orange 25 man heroic Ret ranks.
    Cheesing by definition is putting GCDs into something that's not needed/not going to die. For multidotters for instance dotting up as many fucking adds as they can on Primordius and letting half the adds reach the boss with 40% health, on Tortos going on bats for the last 5-10% (depeding on your raid using hero then or not) and same for Magaera adds when you're on the last head, warlocks (destro) have a retarded dps system (more they aoe the more singletarget they do... wtf?) but if you're DS or even thinking about dpsing the adds when the last head on mag is up you're horrible.

    Oh and on twins when there's like 30 adds up for ~20 seconds we had a frenzy the first night several people (myself included) specced for that aoe burst which made us miss a Suen (fire bitch) kill by 3% before the next tidal force happend. Next night we had tanks + 1 demo lock and the rest just passive cleave them down and then kill any remaining while we turtled behind a frost comet which gave us the kill. Also since we had to get that last 3% on Suen me and the other ret didn't guardian on pull and we delayed our second AW by a minute or so (when day phase starts) so we could get all that extra damage on Suen, is it optimal for dps? fuck no but it was needed for a kill. Which is everything that matters anyways.
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2013-05-10 at 02:08 PM.
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  13. #2693
    High Overlord Zardox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Cheesing by definition is putting GCDs into something that's not needed/not going to die. For multidotters for instance dotting up as many fucking adds as they can on Primordius and letting half the adds reach the boss with 40% health, on Tortos going on bats for the last 5-10% (depeding on your raid using hero then or not) and same for Magaera adds when you're on the last head, warlocks (destro) have a retarded dps system (more they aoe the more singletarget they do... wtf?) but if you're DS or even thinking about dpsing the adds when the last head on mag is up you're horrible.
    This is your definition though, different people inerpret the word in different ways. We can swiftly agree that cheesing is doing something you're not supposed to do, but the details are unclear after that. What you said about Maegera isn't necessarily true either, if you have a Ret tanking them and Monks RoP or Solar Beams, you need to DPS the last adds to get aggro so they can be silenced. I'm sure there's a better way to do it but that's how my guild does it.

  14. #2694
    i just try to look pretty when i'm hitting the boss. WOL be damned...i'm a paladin...it's all about looks...that and i stink.

  15. #2695
    Hi all, great order of brave knights (and sorry for my awful english). First time posting here, cause i've finally decided to join this forum after 3 years of following theorycraft of anaxie & co.

    You've repeatedly said that ES is best cast on last tick of FFoJk, as i already do. The question: is still worth it to macro the Eng. Synapse Spring with ES, or is better to use it when ready, or even on the last 10 second of the Feather for a stronger, not-only-ES-benefical stack?

  16. #2696
    Mechagnome Neldarie's Avatar
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    Umm ret paladins are shit, untill you outgear content to hell where it is >irrelevant<.
    There is prolly only 2 25man guilds worth looking at nowadays when thinking "cutting-edge".
    Like stop pretending and go back to gear people had 2 weeks after ToT was released and look at class performances then. Thats the only time when it truelly matters, the time where you don't see ret doing so well...
    Any melee dps is a liability. Only reason top tier guilds do bring em is (soaking/absorbing) gear. Because, yes 530 melee > 525 and under ranged. But what did they actually bring? Ret? Hell no, waste of conq tokens, seeing how those are alot better used elsewhere. It was all dks/rogues.
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  17. #2697
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikhx View Post
    I really don't like this post of yours, you don't have much faith in your capabilities as a ret, do you?

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-5e...?s=2346&e=2885 - This is our latest Iron Qon kill, 3 dps got world #1 ranks including me, and this is only an example. Apex is far from mediocre dps, you guys just need to stop having this dumb mentality that ret paladins are shit, like everyone else thinks.

    This week I finally got gear on par with most of our top dpsers in our guild(Even still behind some), and I can 100% say that I surprised 90% of my guild concerning ret dps on most fights that I did this reset. With the 15% buff next patch we're gonna look pretty good on most fights, obviously not all cuz some fights are just dumb(hello council/durumu).
    I've said for ages that ret's problems isn't purely because of our limited dps but the fact that our aoe/cleave is extremely limited and we don't do overly well on short living target switches (spirit on council, primordius adds and so on). Ret is "fine" if we're allowed to play to our strenghts but during progress when things are really tight you're not always in a position to leave a ret on the same target for a long time. If you look at raidbots you'll see that the fights that rets do comparable to other melee (or will be with the 15% SoL buff) dps is the fights where there's not much other than single target to be done.

    Rets problem this tier (and same for some other specs) is that many fights are heavy with adds/cleave/multiple targets and target switching, then take into consideration that the room for melee isn't great (except for Qon, stack melee) and ret being weaker than other melee on the things I mentioned above (except enh shamans maybe).
    Things will be better with the 15% SoL buff but it won't really change the weaknesses of ret.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 02:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zardox View Post
    This is your definition though, different people inerpret the word in different ways. We can swiftly agree that cheesing is doing something you're not supposed to do, but the details are unclear after that. What you said about Maegera isn't necessarily true either, if you have a Ret tanking them and Monks RoP or Solar Beams, you need to DPS the last adds to get aggro so they can be silenced. I'm sure there's a better way to do it but that's how my guild does it.
    Again, if you're assigned to do something then that's your job which makes it needed. But let's say if you're kiting Tortos adds the entire fight (hc 25man) with a tank monk rolling around and then the last 15-30 seconds a rogue starts spamming FoK on 100 bats to pump his ego. That's my point, if it's needed then fine. Not like a lot of damage is needed on mag adds to get aggro on them if you're using the threat buff, unless you have morons dpsing them and pulling aggro from you.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 02:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphyr View Post
    Hi all, great order of brave knights (and sorry for my awful english). First time posting here, cause i've finally decided to join this forum after 3 years of following theorycraft of anaxie & co.

    You've repeatedly said that ES is best cast on last tick of FFoJk, as i already do. The question: is still worth it to macro the Eng. Synapse Spring with ES, or is better to use it when ready, or even on the last 10 second of the Feather for a stronger, not-only-ES-benefical stack?
    I'm doing synapse springs ~ 7-8 seconds before feather of ji'kun expires, not much that 1920str (or whatever synapse spring is) is going to affect more than ES. Doing that I get synapse + ji'kun trinket combined for at least 5-6 seconds instead of having it macroed into ES which I've found to work better. Pretty sure it doesn't matter a whole lot though, you're maybe talking that you get 30k damage extra... that is unless you're seal changing (if you got the time) to make Censure tick for over double for 12-13sec.
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2013-05-10 at 02:29 PM.
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  18. #2698
    High Overlord Zardox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Again, if you're assigned to do something then that's your job which makes it needed. But let's say if you're kiting Tortos adds the entire fight (hc 25man) with a tank monk rolling around and then the last 15-30 seconds a rogue starts spamming FoK on 100 bats to pump his ego. That's my point, if it's needed then fine. Not like a lot of damage is needed on mag adds to get aggro on them if you're using the threat buff, unless you have morons dpsing them and pulling aggro from you.
    I get what you mean. The reason I'm so vigilant about the whole cheesing business, I feel alot of people get wrongly blamed for ''cheesing''. I jump on people as well with accusations sometimes, just need to keep in mind how important it is to see it from their perspective as well. Different guilds, different players, different opportunities.

  19. #2699
    High Overlord Rikhx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    Umm ret paladins are shit, untill you outgear content to hell where it is >irrelevant<.
    There is prolly only 2 25man guilds worth looking at nowadays when thinking "cutting-edge".
    Like stop pretending and go back to gear people had 2 weeks after ToT was released and look at class performances then. Thats the only time when it truelly matters, the time where you don't see ret doing so well...
    Any melee dps is a liability. Only reason top tier guilds do bring em is (soaking/absorbing) gear. Because, yes 530 melee > 525 and under ranged. But what did they actually bring? Ret? Hell no, waste of conq tokens, seeing how those are alot better used elsewhere. It was all dks/rogues.
    Can only speak for myself since I joined Apex 3 days before heroic progression started, I had no gear updated enough to be in the race, except for dark animus. I've been 10-15 ilvls below almost every dps in my guild this whole tier and I've still been doing alright. This reset was the first time I actually had gear onpar with everyone else. I'm 100% sure I'd have done way better if I had gotten gear early on and been around the same gear level as everyone else, but since I came back to the game and joined a guild so late I couldn't really even compete this tier. Which sucked. All you needed was feather and a decent weapon and you could do good dps as ret this tier, I outdpsed people with 10ilvls lower than them earlier on in the progression, I think that says a lot.

  20. #2700
    Mechagnome Neldarie's Avatar
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    And set bonuses which are prolly more important.

    And ye as people posted earlier outdpsing people on farm = 1. Outdpsing them on progress = real deal. Now wru that Lei ShenH kill already?!
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