1. #3461
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    They could very easily make the 4set work like the current ele shaman 4set, just a plain and simple passive. Making it use a GCD (which strips us of one holy power) and not being a significant damage increase (single target) is definitely NOT the way to go imo.
    It's fine as long as the 2-set is improved.

  2. #3462
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    i don't think people realize that generating HP when your already spamming finishers does not mean anything. your doing WAY more damage by spamming Tvs an DSs with the 4 piece + dp than trying to generate HP and use plain old Tvs.
    also, it would seem the DP+ 4 piece bug where using DS while having a DP and 4 set proc would consume two, it now only consumes one of them which is a VERY VERY VERY large AOE/cleave dps increase now that it is fixed. whats that? we heard you like to DS spin for AOE. so we let you spin while you spin so you can spin some more!

    jokes aside, the 2 piece is also getting some flack that i also took for granted but after VARIOUS ptr tests, using skada on 10 minute long fights the buff had roughly 40% uptime. thats nothing to really scoff at considering its a FLAT 5% damage boost. aka its roughly a 2% dps increase depending on procs which i believe is what they usually want 2 piece sets to be

  3. #3463
    I am Murloc! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temperance Brennan View Post
    it's because the megaera ring is awfully itemized with hit and crit. optimal combination is primordius and ra-den, but not everyone has access to ra-den.
    It's because if you are using double hit rings. There a pretty good chance you are over the hit cap so the dodge and hit are basically the same in value funny I'm sure. But expertise which can pretty much be considered mastery is better then crit.

  4. #3464
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    ohh, before i forget. it would seem on the PTR if you logged out with the old sacred shield on before the talent changes, you would get the prot sacred shield AND the new passive.
    having both i can say i feel very strong but still able to be taken down in the right hands. being able to shield myself or my allies while having a soft barrier for hard siwtches is indeed nice. i would like this bug to turn into an actual thing where they nerfed holy shield by maybe 30%ish and having the sacred shield talent unchanged.

  5. #3465
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmchomerun View Post
    Weapon DPS far outweighs weapon speed, and although the 516s are only 3.5, the weapon damage outweighs the small loss from weapon speed.
    Really? Cause I thought weapons speed was absolutely huge, to the point where they normalized almost every single weapon in the game. Something comes to mind about the 3.7 rag mace being pretty much on par with the 410 3.6 DS weapon. Could be wrong but I thought the importance of speed is what caused the normalization.

  6. #3466
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reghame View Post
    i don't think people realize that generating HP when your already spamming finishers does not mean anything. your doing WAY more damage by spamming Tvs an DSs with the 4 piece + dp than trying to generate HP and use plain old Tvs.
    The thing is that isn't "free", atm we only gain 2 holy power. The one holy power we miss is 33.33% of a TV or another DS in a aoe situation. They either need to buff up the proc damage increase so it's actually doing enough damage to cover a third of a TV and the damage of a filler.
    1 less holy power means:
    33% of 275% wep damage + 1727 = 92% wep damage + damage loss from a potential Templar's Verdict + any hand of light damage
    + either crusader strike, judgement, exorcism.
    CS = 125% wep damage + hand of light
    Judgement = [54.6% of Spell Power + 32.8% of AP]
    Exorcism = [ 6,960 + 67.7% of AP ]

    Average out the filler damage potentials to around 80-100% wep damage (some to compensate for holy damage ignoring armor)
    So the 4set DS proc needs to hit for around 200% wep damage for it to be a single target MATCHING output source, let alone a bonus as in a damage increase. Now I'm not going to be completely moronic and say that the 4set proc needs to hit for 250% wep damage on ALL targets, that would be OP as hell. Make it do 250% (or more) to primary target and then the regular 100% to others!

    This tiers set bonus was strictly single target, next tier (with the current scaling) is ONLY aoe. Now looking at the fight next tier it's fine but it's retarded that a set bonus ONLY goes one way, if there's a strict one target boss fight next tier we might as well ignore our 4piece as it currently sits and go for the offpieces which might have better itemization OR use our current 4set which is insanely strong for single target (if you're lucky) and with higher ilvl weps next tier as well you're just going to dream of the 2mill TV crits.

    I agree the 2piece is very good but I hate that it procs from art of war, it makes it unreliable and it's going to clip itself so much and then you're not going to see it for 20 seconds again. I'm being overly negative though, our set bonuses are good "first wave of ptr" changes but they need a lot of adjustments and scaling changes for them to be considered "good". Increasing the duration of the 2set proc would be a good start.
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2013-06-21 at 07:45 PM.
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  7. #3467
    The Patient Dmchomerun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Really? Cause I thought weapons speed was absolutely huge, to the point where they normalized almost every single weapon in the game. Something comes to mind about the 3.7 rag mace being pretty much on par with the 410 3.6 DS weapon. Could be wrong but I thought the importance of speed is what caused the normalization.
    I just looked again and I got WSpeed and WDPS mixed up on my weights, BUT, considering how different the speeds are, you're looking at something like 55 DPS.

    I did a sim for someone a handful of pages back, and without the secondary stats added in to either weapon, the 516 had a raid finder weapon beat by about 5k DPS.

    Edit: Page 149 is the post where I did that.
    Last edited by Dmchomerun; 2013-06-21 at 08:17 PM.
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  8. #3468
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmchomerun View Post
    I just looked again and I got WSpeed and WDPS mixed up on my weights, BUT, considering how different the speeds are, you're looking at something like 55 DPS.

    I did a sim for someone a handful of pages back, and without the secondary stats added in to either weapon, the 516 had a raid finder weapon beat by about 5k DPS.

    Edit: Page 149 is the post where I did that.
    Good to know, thanks. Guess I just thought weapons speed was a big deal but I never actually tested it cause weapons were normalized this exp.

  9. #3469
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Good to know, thanks. Guess I just thought weapons speed was a big deal but I never actually tested it cause weapons were normalized this exp.
    It is a big deal, just not with the weapons in this instance having the large WDPS discrepancy. If anyone isn't sure, the best thing is just to calculate it yourself.
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  10. #3470
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmchomerun View Post
    It is a big deal, just not with the weapons in this instance having the large WDPS discrepancy. If anyone isn't sure, the best thing is just to calculate it yourself.
    Yeah I know its a big deal but any weapons that actually matter this exp have been normalized so I haven't tested anything out for the whole exp. Those 516 are nice for alts and shit but my 2 main melee had 522's before those were even available.

  11. #3471
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    hunting, you cant just consider one factor without the other, you can say we "lost" 33% of a tv by using ds, but here is the thing. DP and the 4 set both have a 25% chance to proc, so we can assume, that 1-4 of your DSs, and TVs, will get you either DP or the 4 set to proc, or maybe both. because of this. you can almost count it as HP generation as well, just a more random generation. after 4 dSs, you get either a dp proc, a 4 set proc, or both. this means your getting 25% of a TV out of using DS as a "generator" by fishing out procs. considering DS hits MUCH harder than CS judge, AND exo on the ptr with the 50% change, it is much better to use said procs than just go with a normal rotation and forgetting about them. your not losing anything, your just shifting around damage.

    this is all rough math though, but it should be fairly correct on how our mechanics work and what have you.

    oh, and with the bug fix with DP/4set and the 4 set buffed our cleave/ AOE is REDICULOUS on the ptr, i was able to pull like 300k+ dps on 4 targets without very good procs. i dare to see what i would be like on megeara adds or lei shen balls spamming DS non-stop with that 4 piece.

  12. #3472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reghame View Post
    hunting, you cant just consider one factor without the other, you can say we "lost" 33% of a tv by using ds, but here is the thing. DP and the 4 set both have a 25% chance to proc, so we can assume, that 1-4 of your DSs, and TVs, will get you either DP or the 4 set to proc, or maybe both. because of this. you can almost count it as HP generation as well, just a more random generation. after 4 dSs, you get either a dp proc, a 4 set proc, or both. this means your getting 25% of a TV out of using DS as a "generator" by fishing out procs. considering DS hits MUCH harder than CS judge, AND exo on the ptr with the 50% change, it is much better to use said procs than just go with a normal rotation and forgetting about them. your not losing anything, your just shifting around damage.

    this is all rough math though, but it should be fairly correct on how our mechanics work and what have you.

    oh, and with the bug fix with DP/4set and the 4 set buffed our cleave/ AOE is REDICULOUS on the ptr, i was able to pull like 300k+ dps on 4 targets without very good procs. i dare to see what i would be like on megeara adds or lei shen balls spamming DS non-stop with that 4 piece.
    If and I mean IF. the majority of our attacks will consist of DS and TVS via DP and the 4 set proccing off eachother we may have a good bonus here. Still wouldn't hurt to make it 70% additonal damage instead of 50% imo. Cuz like I said on non AoE fights u would prolly be better off keeping your old tier on. That is not good design.

  13. #3473
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    If and I mean IF. the majority of our attacks will consist of DS and TVS via DP and the 4 set proccing off eachother we may have a good bonus here. Still wouldn't hurt to make it 70% additonal damage instead of 50% imo. Cuz like I said on non AoE fights u would prolly be better off keeping your old tier on. That is not good design.
    also depends a lot on the actual encounters and such. Honestly, buffing 2-set would probably solve the T15 4-set problem.

    off-topic: I need to find a new 25-man guild 'cause mine isn't raiding anymore.

  14. #3474
    The Patient Dmchomerun's Avatar
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    When people prefer the 4-set from the previous tier over the new 4-set doesn't Blizzard basically nerf the previous 4-set into some shit %dmg increase to a couple abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    off-topic: I need to find a new 25-man guild 'cause mine isn't raiding anymore.
    Ouch. Sorry to hear that.
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  15. #3475
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmchomerun View Post
    When people prefer the 4-set from the previous tier over the new 4-set doesn't Blizzard basically nerf the previous 4-set into some shit %dmg increase to a couple abilities?
    After baking it into the spec already, yeah that's what they usually do with ret.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dmchomerun View Post
    Ouch. Sorry to hear that.
    yeah it sucks, guild master/raid leader has health problems and no one's stepping up to really take over so maybe I'll get into Duality or something.

  16. #3476
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    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    If and I mean IF. the majority of our attacks will consist of DS and TVS via DP and the 4 set proccing off each other we may have a good bonus here. Still wouldn't hurt to make it 70% additional damage instead of 50% imo. Cuz like I said on non AoE fights u would prolly be better off keeping your old tier on. That is not good design.
    yea, i would possibly see them baking at least 50% of the current 4 peice to say maybe have TV do half holy and physical. as for the 4 set i can assure you i was basically using finishes almost all the time and on some tests would do pure finishes for 2 minutes straight to get wings back up, lol.

    like i said though, because its a AOE based tier set, to have it do loads of damage single target would make it PURE op for aoe, so the best thing they could so is maybe bake the old tier set in, but as of now, for single target we would be using t16, it just wont be as big as a boost as the last tier set cause holy TVs were kinda on the side of being too strong for a tier set.

    then again you never know, we could be like we were at the end of wrath and be really strong out of no where. i wouldn't mind long as it didn't follow by nerfs the next expansion to make us 100% nonviable in dps like in cata t11 >.<

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-22 at 03:34 PM ----------

    thought of an idea for our 4 set if it becomes too much of an issue for them to balance ds, they could have it to where guardian would copy all of your abilities used for 70% of their effectiveness or something. i kinda always wanted that lil guy to do more then melee attack anyways, looks like me back at level 30 when i though using a 1.3 speed one hander with crusader was good damage cause i attacked really fast :P
    Last edited by Reghame; 2013-06-22 at 07:27 PM.

  17. #3477
    I am Murloc! anaxie's Avatar
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    i'd rather they not touch guardian. They would likely break his damage. Though him Replcating all your attacks would be a pretty interesting bonus.

    Also FINAL Legendary item is an ENHANCE version of your 608 cloak. How to get? COLLECT 50 Timeless coins on the Timeless isle through either killing the 5 new world bosses OR finding hidden treasure chests / quests/ weekly/ Mob killing / Maybe rare killing. SOUNDS FUN DONT IT. I bet you get coins for winning the Pet tournaments since that is a huge feature of the Timeless isle. 2nd step is to kill the 4 Celestials aka 4 of the new world bosses. Pretty simple.

    Pretty awful too.

    http://ptr.wowdb.com/quests/33098-se...-timeless-isle

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...le-Exploration

    VERY LIKELY. THE PROC EFFECT. Get ready boys this is a game changer. 0% Obv placeholder.
    Item - Attacks Proc Amplification 15%CoH
    Your attacks have a chance to grant Amplification, increasing your Critical Strike damage, Haste, and Mastery by 0% for until cancelled.


    Ladies and gentlemen. Here we have something somewhat HORRIBLE. yes HORRIBLE for ret that can hurt us next tier. #1 Haste above 50% = Useless random haste procs for ret are also somewhat undesired. #2 We do not crit alot. #3 Mastery damage is about the only benefit we get. We MIGHT be in trouble scaling wise. If we are forced into this we likely will be having to HARD stop well before 50% haste to get a benefit from this proc. In additon while going into mastery to bump damage. This MAY help us if the attack can proc off EACH AoE hit. Scaling wise our DS set might help us.

    Again this cloak is a fucking GAME CHANGER.

    Now for the BAD NEWS.
    http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/146046-amplified

    There is a chance it MIGHT only proc one of the ratings randomly. or what I fear. Procs off your HIGHEST rating.

    One thing we do learn from the crit spell though. The duration on this thing is 30 seconds.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-06-23 at 05:02 AM.

  18. #3478
    There's no way it's randomly or highest priority. It has to be all together, otherwise it's crap.

  19. #3479
    ... increasing your Critical Strike damage, Haste, and Mastery by 0% ...
    Given the usage of 'and,' one can infer that they will be up simultaneously. Hopefully that is how it will function. However, legendary cloak is lame in my opinion.

  20. #3480
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Guessing it'll work like the wep enchant, x stats at random without icd
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