1. #3821
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    So far in MoP ret has been 100% garbage or sub par on every fight except 3 or 4? By sub par I mean our single target can be matched or outdone by other class/specs which also brings "more" to the raid through cleave, grips, multidots and so on. Does that mean rets should be benched if you're outside the top 10 race? No, top 3~5 are usually hours or a day after eachother on kills. From there on you generally see couple days between them, the thing about isn't that they're so bad that you can't or shouldn't have one (or more) in your raid. It's just that so far in MoP what ret has been "strong" in is single target which basically every other spec in the game could match us on. Now thanks to the 15% buff to SoL that shouldn't be happening anymore and our overal "viability" as far as progress goes has gone up a lot, now looking into top 3~5 25man ranks... do I think there's room for a ret there as of the current PTR build? Yes. Do I think ret will be so strong guilds will use a couple rets? No. But that hasn't got anything to do with how "strong" ret is in dps or anything. Other melee are still better "built" for the fights as far as I've seen in SoO, DKs with disease spreading, rogues with smokebomb and warriors with RC since a lot of the raid wide hits next tier looks to be physical. Warriors are also generally really strong every endtier in expansions because stats get out of controll for them, bring a ret isn't going to drag down top 5 progress guilds next tier I think. I do however think that the 1 prot paladin and 2 holy paladins that those guilds usually have access to will cover whatever devo auras they need and thus (regardless of the cd reducing trinket or not) making ret paladins devos (or devos in general) less "needed" so you can't really bring a ret for the devo.

    And it's not about talking as we got 1% experience or not, it's about looking into what kind of mechanics that the future raid brings and what sort of fights are coming. Doesn't take a fucking brain surgeon to see that rets are going to be horrible for an encounter and strong for another. Besides the thing that seperates the top 1% and the say top 100 guilds isn't skill (at least not the biggest difference) but time, dedication and how persistant + consistant you can play. For me I'd love to progress raid for 16hrs a day for 3-4 weeks, that sounds like something I could get on with if I had the time and freedom to take that long every day to play without being disturbed by pets, work, family and so on.

    And no I don't consider myself one of the best rets in the world, or in eu for that matter. I've been in the game a fucking long time and followed the progression race for 5-6 years (didn't care the first 2 years as I was a "kid") that doesn't mean I or others for that matter can't understand the things that matters in a race to world first guild.
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  2. #3822
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    So far in MoP ret has been 100% garbage or sub par on every fight except 3 or 4? By sub par I mean our single target can be matched or outdone by other class/specs which also brings "more" to the raid through cleave, grips, multidots and so on. Does that mean rets should be benched if you're outside the top 10 race? No, top 3~5 are usually hours or a day after eachother on kills. From there on you generally see couple days between them, the thing about isn't that they're so bad that you can't or shouldn't have one (or more) in your raid. It's just that so far in MoP what ret has been "strong" in is single target which basically every other spec in the game could match us on. Now thanks to the 15% buff to SoL that shouldn't be happening anymore and our overal "viability" as far as progress goes has gone up a lot, now looking into top 3~5 25man ranks... do I think there's room for a ret there as of the current PTR build? Yes. Do I think ret will be so strong guilds will use a couple rets? No. But that hasn't got anything to do with how "strong" ret is in dps or anything. Other melee are still better "built" for the fights as far as I've seen in SoO, DKs with disease spreading, rogues with smokebomb and warriors with RC since a lot of the raid wide hits next tier looks to be physical. Warriors are also generally really strong every endtier in expansions because stats get out of controll for them, bring a ret isn't going to drag down top 5 progress guilds next tier I think. I do however think that the 1 prot paladin and 2 holy paladins that those guilds usually have access to will cover whatever devo auras they need and thus (regardless of the cd reducing trinket or not) making ret paladins devos (or devos in general) less "needed" so you can't really bring a ret for the devo.

    And it's not about talking as we got 1% experience or not, it's about looking into what kind of mechanics that the future raid brings and what sort of fights are coming. Doesn't take a fucking brain surgeon to see that rets are going to be horrible for an encounter and strong for another. Besides the thing that seperates the top 1% and the say top 100 guilds isn't skill (at least not the biggest difference) but time, dedication and how persistant + consistant you can play. For me I'd love to progress raid for 16hrs a day for 3-4 weeks, that sounds like something I could get on with if I had the time and freedom to take that long every day to play without being disturbed by pets, work, family and so on.

    And no I don't consider myself one of the best rets in the world, or in eu for that matter. I've been in the game a fucking long time and followed the progression race for 5-6 years (didn't care the first 2 years as I was a "kid") that doesn't mean I or others for that matter can't understand the things that matters in a race to world first guild.
    Are You ok?

  3. #3823
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulldancer View Post
    Are You ok?
    I'm fine baby, how are you?
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  4. #3824
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    I'm fine baby, how are you?
    Just seems like you're beating a dead horse thats all

  5. #3825
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulldancer View Post
    Just seems like you're beating a dead horse thats all
    I wouldn't hurt a horse, not that I could anyways.
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  6. #3826
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    So far in MoP ret has been 100% garbage or sub par on every fight except 3 or 4? By sub par I mean our single target can be matched or outdone by other class/specs which also brings "more" to the raid through cleave, grips, multidots and so on. Does that mean rets should be benched if you're outside the top 10 race? No, top 3~5 are usually hours or a day after eachother on kills. From there on you generally see couple days between them, the thing about isn't that they're so bad that you can't or shouldn't have one (or more) in your raid. It's just that so far in MoP what ret has been "strong" in is single target which basically every other spec in the game could match us on. Now thanks to the 15% buff to SoL that shouldn't be happening anymore and our overal "viability" as far as progress goes has gone up a lot, now looking into top 3~5 25man ranks... do I think there's room for a ret there as of the current PTR build? Yes. Do I think ret will be so strong guilds will use a couple rets? No. But that hasn't got anything to do with how "strong" ret is in dps or anything. Other melee are still better "built" for the fights as far as I've seen in SoO, DKs with disease spreading, rogues with smokebomb and warriors with RC since a lot of the raid wide hits next tier looks to be physical. Warriors are also generally really strong every endtier in expansions because stats get out of controll for them, bring a ret isn't going to drag down top 5 progress guilds next tier I think. I do however think that the 1 prot paladin and 2 holy paladins that those guilds usually have access to will cover whatever devo auras they need and thus (regardless of the cd reducing trinket or not) making ret paladins devos (or devos in general) less "needed" so you can't really bring a ret for the devo.

    And it's not about talking as we got 1% experience or not, it's about looking into what kind of mechanics that the future raid brings and what sort of fights are coming. Doesn't take a fucking brain surgeon to see that rets are going to be horrible for an encounter and strong for another. Besides the thing that seperates the top 1% and the say top 100 guilds isn't skill (at least not the biggest difference) but time, dedication and how persistant + consistant you can play. For me I'd love to progress raid for 16hrs a day for 3-4 weeks, that sounds like something I could get on with if I had the time and freedom to take that long every day to play without being disturbed by pets, work, family and so on.

    And no I don't consider myself one of the best rets in the world, or in eu for that matter. I've been in the game a fucking long time and followed the progression race for 5-6 years (didn't care the first 2 years as I was a "kid") that doesn't mean I or others for that matter can't understand the things that matters in a race to world first guild.

    EDIT: BTW, my post is very long too and very eye exploding, i tried to space it out a bit though so have fun if you want to read it all.

    i think my eyes just exploded from the giant wall o text yea got there friend.....
    ANYWAYS what i could take from that is we should be balanced around all aspects of the game from low end raiding, to top end. This will almost never be the case. such balance is so hard to achieve, and that's ONLY for pve. your forgetting that unless they have different spell abilities for both PVE AND PVP such balance i think can NEVER can be achieved unless your rotation i just press 1 every second till the boss/ player is dead. which is a terrible way to kill yourself if you ask me.

    honestly, i would rather be balanced more at the lower end of things because a VAST MAJORITY of the player base cant get the maximum out of their class. i believe a majority of us in this very thread could STILL be a lot better than we are even if we have a few top 10 ranks here and there.
    And in case anyone forgets, let us remember that unless your name is a warlock, you get pretty quickly nerfed if you become very viable or even OP in every field, blizzard usually likes to have classes AND SPECS to have their strengths and weaknesses.(hint, the warlock thing is me just be super jelly of them this expansion, they just seem so good to me :P)

    the only issue i have with blizzard as far as balancing the dps specs is that they like to have the classes fill specific rolls, but then don't openly admit or say they want X class to be super strong in Y case, but ok to sub-par to Z case.

    The only issue with this way of balance is that at both top and bottom parts of PVE or PVP cases, the part that is lacking can not be TOO weak, or else would never be used in that situation despite skill or not, and that at the strong point cannot be too strong, otherwise content would need to be balanced in a way that what we know as class stacking becomes a norm as it become for a while.

    i'm not a senior designer for any games nor have even worked in the field to begin with so this is all just personal speculation as to how i BELIEVE a game like this should work, so take my word with a grain of salt if you will.

    as for what i do know, is that at the very beginning of T15, our single target was lacking and we were one of the lowest if not THE lowest viable(viable meaning im not counting classes that have another stronger spec ala warriors with arms and fury) dps spec in the raid. as we progressed, we started to scale up a little and beat some of these specs. i believe it was half way through ToT that we got a 10% dps increase through the 15% SoL buff we gained, which threw our single target up quite a bit more.

    During all this though, our burst AOE was fairly nice. as we progressed it got better, then we got buffed it got better, and now we have more buffs on the way and other things that make our AOE even stronger. Assuming that other classes dont somehow ALL gain the same single target dps spike we took going into and OUT of t15, we can ASSUME we are at least closer to middle of the pack if not a little higher. our AOE on the other hand, was somewhat strong, then it got stronger, and now i believe it might just be the STRONGEST out of ALL OF THE DPS SPECS in the game with a full set of the T16 gear we will attain.

    Because of this, i do not WANT to be super strong in single target, it has a HIGH and i mean REALLY HIGH risk of making us get nerfed and have NOTHING in return. we can be balanced if what we have now is not changed. we can preform a niche roll without being completely tossed out of our other roll unless your in one of those top 10 or w/e guilds who has such a large roster to replace and class stack for every fight. As long as we stay as is, im happy, you may not like the niche your preforming and that's ok. i still think its better to be in for most of the fights and left out on some because X is really tight and we need a lot of y right now. because the other option is just not raiding at all.

    Again, im not a super duper expert. i just look at whats in front of me like WoLs, sims, epeen bot, w/e is available, and see what i can do or see what will be done so i can brace myself for it. and this is what im doing now, i see us being somewhat strong overall, but not in too much risk. i would rather make myself an enemy from my fellow spec mates, just so we can all be relatively happy in the long run rather than miserable all the time.
    Last edited by Reghame; 2013-07-08 at 03:40 AM.

  7. #3827
    In an effort to get back on the topic rather than a debate that was dealt with a few pages back..

    I've been looking at quite a few of the higher parsing rets on Ra-den in 10s. Some are using PToR while others are using the Spark. While I understand that the talisman will overtake the Spark [generally] at any haste values above 15k, is there still a use for the trinket on Ra-den in particular even above that point? Or is it being used to try and make up a loss of haste on other gear?

    I'm really curious about this since I'm at 40.32% (17,134) haste as is with the Spark equip. Most of them, even with the Spark on, have between 37 and 38 like it's detrimental to their DPS to be higher, even though the cap is about 50%.

    Trying to do an analysis on why my damage is a bit lower than some of the others in my raid group currently.

    Edit: Another question but this one is more towards melee in general on the Ra-den encounter: if you guys soak the unstable vita using two stack points external to the boss' location, when do you run out? 4 seconds remaining? Or do you run out much earlier to be safe?

  8. #3828
    I think it's because of RNG. If you have a trinket proc every 11 seconds, you will have a spark proc after 99 seconds (1 on pull + 9 procs after 99 seconds), while you won't ever have more than 1 stacks of PToR. in this case, spark is worth 9430/5 1886 STR, while primordius is worth 1795 STR. and that's with 91% uptime. most of the time, it does not even have 60% uptime, like Revvo mentioned earlier.

  9. #3829
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    My guild just ignorered P2 mechanics 100% just healed through the raid damage (which doesn't change by ignoring balls afaik) and just relied on our dpsers to outdps the hp gain from the red balls (which wasn't hard)

    I like PToR more than spark because you're a lot more likely to have one or more stacks of the trinket when needed. Adds on lei Shen? 1-3 stacks most of the time. Balls on Ra Den? 1-3 stacks, spark (for me anyways) seems to proc when you don't want it, before transition on lei shen etcetera.
    PToR gives a higher dps throughout the fights in my experience while spark if timed with cds well can give higher cd burst, unless you're lucky and get 5stscks on cds, which happens!
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2013-07-08 at 09:57 AM.
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  10. #3830
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    My guild just ignorered P2 mechanics 100% just healed through the raid damage (which doesn't change by ignoring balls afaik) and just relied on our dpsers to outdps the hp gain from the red balls (which wasn't hard)

    I like PToR more than spark because you're a lot more likely to have one or more stacks of the trinket when needed. Adds on lei Shen? 1-3 stacks most of the time. Balls on Ra Den? 1-3 stacks, spark (for me anyways) seems to proc when you don't want it, before transition on lei shen etcetera.
    PToR gives a higher dps throughout the fights in my experience while spark if timed with cds well can give higher cd burst, unless you're lucky and get 5stscks on cds, which happens!
    PToR is just all around better in general. go for it

    Sources come from Myself, Solsacra, and Neldarie 3 of the highest parsing rets in the entire game.

    Also a side note Huntingbear you seem a little too stressed. The raiding meta game starting to "break" you already?
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-07-09 at 01:11 AM.

  11. #3831
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Nah, I just get annoyed quickly. Dancing through farm, then going PTR alone trying to figure out some numbers, change them and repeat shit to see changes, it's fun but I've had a couple long days on PTR and live trying to prepare different "strategies" for the next tier (with and without broken trinket). Since it's PTR there's no point laying out 600 pages of rather unimportant numbers because they'll change before live. Trying to get a bit a head for next tier because of holidays and such + I wanna take another step up.
    Guess I'll PM people who want numbers and such when next PTR build comes with changes.

    I like seeing other rets (and non-rets) contributing, regardless if they're wrong or off (as I am at times) they help the community grow. We all like them big, no?

    ps. Going to blizzcon this year, from Norway, so if anyone else is attending let me know
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2013-07-09 at 02:37 AM.
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  12. #3832
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Nah, I just get annoyed quickly. Dancing through farm, then going PTR alone trying to figure out some numbers, change them and repeat shit to see changes, it's fun but I've had a couple long days on PTR and live trying to prepare different "strategies" for the next tier (with and without broken trinket). Since it's PTR there's no point laying out 600 pages of rather unimportant numbers because they'll change before live. Trying to get a bit a head for next tier because of holidays and such + I wanna take another step up.
    Guess I'll PM people who want numbers and such when next PTR build comes with changes.
    I don't even PTR and I still obtain all the relevant information I need through alternative sources. With just a mechanics outline / gear itemization I can usually determine dps range.

    This thread and Real ID rets are the testing ground for bouncing my theories around. Helps me stay sane.

    Maybe some people view me as an enigma for how I do things. Doesn't bother me the slightest.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-07-09 at 02:40 AM.

  13. #3833
    I picked up a TF Gaze of the Twins via extra roll. I'm currently using 530 Spark and Heroic Feather for my ret OS. Worth using the Gaze or should I vendor it and make my warrior mad?

  14. #3834
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    I picked up a TF Gaze of the Twins via extra roll. I'm currently using 530 Spark and Heroic Feather for my ret OS. Worth using the Gaze or should I vendor it and make my warrior mad?
    Warrior mad

  15. #3835
    GotT is a horrible trinket for ret. bad stat and doesn't stack enough.

    Also, some unfortunate luck on my secrets. finished the week this weekend with 19/20 secrets... at least wednesday i can try again.

  16. #3836
    Quote Originally Posted by Temperance Brennan View Post
    GotT is a horrible trinket for ret. bad stat and doesn't stack enough.

    Also, some unfortunate luck on my secrets. finished the week this weekend with 19/20 secrets... at least wednesday i can try again.
    Make sure you try and get your secret outta the first 6 (DO NOT go straight for Lei Shen) so that you can still have the last 6 bosses for Runestones.

  17. #3837
    http://www.wowprogress.com/character...ras/Jeanjacket

    Anyone have any idea why wowprogress is saying my simdps is so low? I understand gaze is a bad trinket for ret but 85k doesnt seem right...

  18. #3838
    Quote Originally Posted by JeanJacket View Post
    http://www.wowprogress.com/character...ras/Jeanjacket

    Anyone have any idea why wowprogress is saying my simdps is so low? I understand gaze is a bad trinket for ret but 85k doesnt seem right...
    Probably simmed you when you were in PvP gear or something. Doesn't update when you force update it.

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  19. #3839
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    seems like there is a new update for our glyphs, Glyph of the battle healer now transfers the heal from Seal of Insight to the lowest health raid member instead of the paladin.
    I guess they don't want ret or prot to use the glyph i suppose, considering its just a all round worse for both unless the heal number from insight shoots up somewhat. Oh well, i would have preferred if they had just made the glyph work on all damage and be ret only though. but i guess that's not where they wanted to go with it. we shall see though if they change it again.

  20. #3840
    Quote Originally Posted by Reghame View Post
    seems like there is a new update for our glyphs, Glyph of the battle healer now transfers the heal from Seal of Insight to the lowest health raid member instead of the paladin.
    I guess they don't want ret or prot to use the glyph i suppose, considering its just a all round worse for both unless the heal number from insight shoots up somewhat. Oh well, i would have preferred if they had just made the glyph work on all damage and be ret only though. but i guess that's not where they wanted to go with it. we shall see though if they change it again.
    I'm pretty sure no ret paladin has used that glyph. ever.

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