1. #1741
    The Patient Prometheous's Avatar
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    After playing around with simcraft, things are looking grim. Given, our damage is higher (but uhh, that's because the gear got better) we are still no where near being good.

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  2. #1742
    I hope nobody agrees with the two above posters. Retribution paladins were the rock stars this patch (with the best initial burst). Most of us (the good of us atleast) were topping charts regularly
    Last edited by Peking_Man; 2013-03-05 at 03:03 PM.

  3. #1743
    Oh my, please don't feed the troll or this thread might go down for good :/

    5.2 : we still got a few buffs and our 2min AW makes us gain free damage with our 4pt14 for the early normal mode. They didn't punish our buffs by payback so we still must be doing a little better.
    Am I the only one who thinks that SoR should be up-scaled a little ?

    Sad the polearm is trashloot

    As for trinket, Feathers seems tricky to evaluate and Sparks and Primordius seems BiS for most encounters

  4. #1744
    The Patient Prometheous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peking_Man View Post
    I hope nobody agrees with the two above posters. Retribution paladins were the rock stars this patch (with the best initial burst). Most of us (the good of us atleast) were topping charts regularly
    I'm glad you called me out.

    Looking at most of the fights and rankings on WorldofLogs.com, you may notice that the number 1 ranked ret for any given fight isn't near the top 200 of any of the fights. This doesn't say much but it gives you an idea that with great RNG and high skill, we're still no where near being "rock stars".

    http://simulationcraft.org/510/Raid_T14H.html Looking at the simcraft for heroic t14 you may notice, while it may be hard to read, that ret is actually second from the bottom. Now, I don't personally consider that "rock star" status but depending on who you raid with that may or may not be correct. You might want to actually look outside of your raid group for an accurate comparison. Furthermore, claiming that we were actually a great class this patch shows me that you have no idea what you're actually talking about and I am wasting my time by posting this but you caught me at a bad time.

    If you'd like to know more, I can show you the thousands of iterations of simcraft I've ran myself to prove to you just how wrong you are.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 03:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    Oh my, please don't feed the troll or this thread might go down for good :/

    5.2 : we still got a few buffs and our 2min AW makes us gain free damage with our 4pt14 for the early normal mode. They didn't punish our buffs by payback so we still must be doing a little better.
    Am I the only one who thinks that SoR should be up-scaled a little ?

    Sad the polearm is trashloot

    As for trinket, Feathers seems tricky to evaluate and Sparks and Primordius seems BiS for most encounters
    Im convinced that the Feather is just going to be the "eh I guess ill use it since it dropped" trinket until we can get a Sparks and Primordius trinket. The proc on it seems rather silly, only getting 2 seconds of the full buff makes it... well bad.

    Im almost sure that a 2/2 DMF trinket would almost be better, if not actually better.

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  5. #1745
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peking_Man View Post
    I hope nobody agrees with the two above posters. Retribution paladins were the rock stars this patch (with the best initial burst). Most of us (the good of us atleast) were topping charts regularly
    Hello, I stomp (when I want to), and no I don't agree with you
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  6. #1746
    Looking at the simcraft for heroic t14 you may notice, while it may be hard to read, that ret is actually second from the bottom.
    Which of-course is not the truth. We are not second from bottom but then we aren't second from top. Middle of pack is what defines us better.

    Furthermore, claiming that we were actually a great class this patch shows me that you have no idea what you're actually talking about and I am wasting my time by posting this but you caught me at a bad time.
    Well some people do well vs their raid groups. However, the truth is, that if you take equally skilled players, you will never be no-where close to top. To op: if you are consistently topping meters you need to re-consider the guild you are in.

  7. #1747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meanor View Post
    Which of-course is not the truth. We are not second from bottom but then we aren't second from top. Middle of pack is what defines us better.



    Well some people do well vs their raid groups. However, the truth is, that if you take equally skilled players, you will never be no-where close to top. To op: if you are consistently topping meters you need to re-consider the guild you are in.
    Simcraft also had patchwerk , imbalanced troll / orc for all specs but rets, and classes jumping through wildly unrealistic hoops to achieve the simcraft numbers.

    So yes the simcraft chart is accurate for the #1 players. If they are a god himself single target no gimmic.
    Sadly nothing is single target non gimmic so the chart is completely irrelevant.

    Also
    To op: if you are consistently topping meters you need to re-consider the guild you are in.
    Lets not push my buttons lest I get banned again making you look silly.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-03-05 at 05:55 PM.

  8. #1748
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Also Lets not push my buttons lest I get banned again making you look silly.
    Simple mis-use of OP imo from Meanor

    Feathers : I can see it has a 22sec ICD on top of having a clunky mechanic... It would have been better off to add 3333STR every 5s for 20s maybe..

  9. #1749
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    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Also Lets not push my buttons lest I get banned again making you look silly.
    He was talking to Peking_Man

  10. #1750
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    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    Simple mis-use of OP imo from Meanor

    Feathers : I can see it has a 22sec ICD on top of having a clunky mechanic... It would have been better off to add 3333STR every 5s for 20s maybe..
    Clunky because lining up that and zandalar since they are RPPM and no ICD is largely unrealistic. Better to line up a Zandalar only and a passive chunk of str.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 06:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    He was talking to Peking_Man
    Oh yeah that guy is wrong. But considering his brief PoV with no examples it shoulda been ignored.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-03-05 at 06:10 PM.

  11. #1751
    Simcraft also had patchwerk , imbalanced troll / orc for all specs but rets, and classes jumping through wildly unrealistic hoops to achieve the simcraft numbers.

    So yes the simcraft chart is accurate for the #1 players. If they are a god himself single target no gimmic.
    Sadly nothing is single target non gimmic so the chart is completely irrelevant.
    I agree. Tbh a better indication is what people are doing in average. Since that is a better than any individual performance.

    Lets not push my buttons lest I get banned again making you look silly.
    You never fail to make me /giggle. Welcome back =)

  12. #1752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peking_Man View Post
    I hope nobody agrees with the two above posters. Retribution paladins were the rock stars this patch (with the best initial burst). Most of us (the good of us atleast) were topping charts regularly
    If you're topping charts on any fight in T14 except Garalon and maybe Windlord you're playing with bad players, honestly there's no reason a ret should beat anyone except on that fight and even on those fights we're not top. Yes we burst for 30sec but after that's gone our dps drops to ~100k-110k dps while other classes have 120k+ sustained dps. Our burst simply can't hold our average dps higher than everyone elses sustained. If you think it does then you got no clue, sorry.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 08:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SirRaven View Post
    Are we that crazy if we just love this spec above all others and we cling to the hopes of shinier moments? Are we selfish being stubborn to play it in the detriment of the guild interest ??
    It doesn't really matter if you play ret or not unless you're on the bleeding edge of progression, the moment you start pushing content so hard that you have to replace lowest dps that's the point where rets are gonna be replaced. At this level I asume people are of equal skill and thus ret being worst dps class = ret getting replaced. I'm not saying you can't get top 5 dps charts in your guild, I'm saying compare the best ret vs the best of any other class and the ret should lose every single time. That's not a "qq", that's a fact.

    I play ret because I enjoy the class "flow" and toolkit, while our support and utility isn't as unique anymore paladins are good in raids because of those few unique buffs we bring. That said if you have a tankadin and 2-3 holy paladins you should consider yourself lucky if your guild takes you for the additional CDs which become much less valuable after 3 paladins in total. This changes with each encounter ofc.
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2013-03-05 at 07:41 PM.

  13. #1753
    New post from Ghostcrawler about ret aoe.

    "Since the Seal of Righteousness change, Ret is actually one of the best specs at clumped AE. I’d encourage you to try it out. Now, AE is a pretty broad encompassing term and it depends a lot on number of targets, length of the fight and so forth. Players tend to focus less on the encounters that are considered easy and a lot more on those that are considered blocking, so the specific encounter mechanics of the hardest fights become the yardstick of which kind of AE is considered important at any point in time."

  14. #1754
    High Overlord Jaling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    If you're topping charts on any fight in T14 except Garalon and maybe Windlord you're playing with bad players, honestly there's no reason a ret should beat anyone except on that fight and even on those fights we're not top. Yes we burst for 30sec but after that's gone our dps drops to ~100k-110k dps while other classes have 120k+ sustained dps. Our burst simply can't hold our average dps higher than everyone elses sustained. If you think it does then you got no clue, sorry.
    Have to agree. Earlier in T14 I was on a team were I would top DPS on almost every fight. Then I joined a more accomplished team and watched my rank drop. I can start out #1 with a pre-pot and our insane burst, but easily fall over the course of the fight. I don't mind; my team has fantastic players who get everything out of their class. I'd rather be 3-5 on the DPS meter (but still standing up on my own two feet, of course) and progressing through content than #1 and stuck on Garalon.

  15. #1755
    Ghostcrawler:
    Since the Seal of Righteousness change, Ret is actually one of the best specs at clumped AE. I’d encourage you to try it out.
    I can't test it now since i deleted PTR, but last time i check (3days ago or so) SoR was hitting like a wet noodle against 4 targets. Any US players can test it?

  16. #1756
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    We've been told many times over the course of this testing that ret was around the same spot as the other melee specs in terms of single target but that ret was lacking in the AOE/Cleave department and that was something you were going to look at.


    @GC:
    Since the Seal of Righteousness change, Ret is actually one of the best specs at clumped AE. I’d encourage you to try it out. Now, AE is a pretty broad encompassing term and it depends a lot on number of targets, length of the fight and so forth. Players tend to focus less on the encounters that are considered easy and a lot more on those that are considered blocking, so the specific encounter mechanics of the hardest fights become the yardstick of which kind of AE is considered important at any point in time.
    I don't get it.
    So a meaningless buff of 4% takes us from non-existent to top noch in aoe-cleave fights?
    Does he rly believe in what he's saying?

    HOORAY!

  17. #1757
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskaron View Post
    I don't get it.
    So a meaningless buff of 4% takes us from non-existent to top noch in aoe-cleave fights?
    Does he rly believe in what he's saying?

    HOORAY!
    Not sure why they didn't just make it 12% weapon damage = to truth. Not like we would swap single target or anything.
    Prolly consider swapping with that number.

    I think he is confused by rets taking HA and spamming divine storm. Errmahgud dat aoe.

    Or worse they base our aoe of... trash dps LOL. It's very likely they do tho.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-03-05 at 08:04 PM.

  18. #1758
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    Is it bad that I just want to lay into GC and rip him a new asshole with all the crap he is spewing. I would challenge GC to actually provide US with proof for once that our AE is "one of the best specs at clumped AE"


  19. #1759
    That was my post and when I got GC's response I was less than impressed but now I can't post in that thread anymore. Every time I enter a new post when I hit submit it just turns the field blank again so I can't ask him much more about it. Less than impressed with his answer and I took a rather conservative approach in my post since many on here have been amazing with feedback for the past months, not asking for buffs to us or nerfs to anyone else, simply asking for the logic behind them. He took the 1 part of my post which I was unsure to include and picked it up right away. Ghostcrawler is almost too good at answering questions without actually answering questions, a skill which I am sure has served hi very well in his job as he deals with a lot of shit, but I think this particular issue deserved a better answer. From what I have seen the 50% buff to SOTR doesn't put us in a very competitive spot in sustained AOE and it still gives us 0 buff to cleave damage, something which seems to become more and more important. I''m glad I took it slow last tier, didn't do much progression raiding and had to be mainspec port considering how ret has been completely overlooked. Furthermore, Huntington has been saying it all week, the patch isn't ready to go live yet and a round of damage buffs put in mere hours before this patch goes live without testing completely confirms that, if we even needed it to be confirmed.

    Lastly, I tried to ask him what kind of numbers he's seeing with the SOTR buff (since he likes to tell us all the time that our data doesn't line up with theirs) but as I mentioned I can't post in that thread anymore, still trying to figure it out. If anyone can ask him what kind of buff he's seeing from live SOTR to PTR (soon to be live) SOTR I'd love to see it so when we come back with something different n a weeks time we'll have something to compare it from. I know we won't get the answer because they don't do those kind of answers, but would still be nice. As Anaxie, Hunt, Reith and many others in this thread and across the community have said before wait a month or two till the progression race is over and we MIGHT see some more tuning.


    EDIT: Just logged in and the only realm that was up was Medivh, but it was still up. Looks like we might not get a second delay
    Last edited by Aceshigh; 2013-03-05 at 08:50 PM.

  20. #1760
    Quote Originally Posted by cidic View Post
    Is it bad that I just want to lay into GC and rip him a new asshole with all the crap he is spewing. I would challenge GC to actually provide US with proof for once that our AE is "one of the best specs at clumped AE"
    They won't risk getting ridiculed by some people who can "make them look silly" in a heart beat. That's why you see big mouthfuls CMs "bragging" with their "impressive" progression.

    Their argument is "because we say so, 'cause we have the right data/feedback". Childish, isn't it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    He took the 1 part of my post which I was unsure to include and picked it up right away. Ghostcrawler is almost too good at answering questions without actually answering questions, a skill which I am sure has served hi very well in his job as he deals with a lot of shit, but I think this particular issue deserved a better answer.
    Of course he does, he can talk more and louder than you and fool you in the face. And smiling at the same time. It's his job.
    Though, in the current state of affairs, I wish he wouldn't have any design decision role..
    Last edited by SirRaven; 2013-03-05 at 08:55 PM.

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