1. #1881
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    The Dark Side
    Posts
    427
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohohohoh View Post
    I don't know if ppl actually took time to look but the simcraft has the old 4set bonus of the lightning strike damage that would have taken place of the TV making TV do less overall damage then hand of light. Which also means it would be an overall increase in damage since a holy tv would do more then a lightning one for obvious reasons. Cheers.
    Ye, who are those people . If ya look at other melee they all have lightning strike so pretty safe to assume its the legendary meta and not ret 4set...
    Main: Ret Alt(s): War , DK

  2. #1882
    Question about the trinkets:

    Currently using normal Final Orders + Relic of Xuen (both fully upgraded). Should I be bothering with any of the normal mode ToT trinkets? If so which one? Surely worth replacing Relic with one of them at the very least? Also askmrrobot is listing the VP vendor trinket as BiS which is obviously wrong, but is it worth using at all?

    Wish I had a working brain for this shit haha.

  3. #1883
    The Patient Prometheous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Posts
    221
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythius View Post
    Question about the trinkets:

    Currently using normal Final Orders + Relic of Xuen (both fully upgraded). Should I be bothering with any of the normal mode ToT trinkets? If so which one? Surely worth replacing Relic with one of them at the very least? Also askmrrobot is listing the VP vendor trinket as BiS which is obviously wrong, but is it worth using at all?

    Wish I had a working brain for this shit haha.
    You should get the spark and primordius' trinket, those are our BiS for normal thanks to the ICD on the VP one. It is better than relic but only barely, I wouldn't waste my VP on it, save for ring/cloak/neck first.

    <Revive> 14/14H - Stormreaver
    Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday

  4. #1884
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    First of all, normal mode.
    Second of all, US top 50? are you kidding me? go check eu+us top 50 and check the number of rets vs the number of other dps specs.
    Third of all, if you actually have rets on the top of your meters this tier your guild dpsers isn't up to par. Only fights where ret should be "high" on dps is Jin'Rokh and maybe Horridon if we're allowed to sit on the boss to abuse the stacking damage taken debuff on him.

    Ret, while not being totally unviable, is a drag to any guild who's gonna push ranks this tier. That's not jibberish/QQ, that's a fact.
    Ret is strong on most fights, if not all.
    "Remembrance of things past is not necessarily the remembrance of things as they were."
    Juseeh
    T11 WR: 115, T12 WR: 45, T14 WR:44, T15 WR:37, T16: WR:28

  5. #1885
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Norway, Trondheim
    Posts
    5,214
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicy View Post
    Ret is strong on most fights, if not all.
    Compared to who?

  6. #1886
    Quote Originally Posted by Prometheous View Post
    You should get the spark and primordius' trinket, those are our BiS for normal thanks to the ICD on the VP one. It is better than relic but only barely, I wouldn't waste my VP on it, save for ring/cloak/neck first.

    Cool cheers. Got the ring + neck so cloak is next on the list.

  7. #1887
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Compared to who?
    Jin'rokh, Horridon, Megaera, Durumu, Primordius are fights where ret can compete with most classes on as long as your raidleader lets you play our strengths, which they should.
    Iron Qon is a shit fight for melee in general if they haven't fixed the hitbox issues from PTR, havent personally done Twin Consorts/Lei Shen yet, but Lei Shen looks like a strong fight for us aswell where we can compete with most classes on.
    "Remembrance of things past is not necessarily the remembrance of things as they were."
    Juseeh
    T11 WR: 115, T12 WR: 45, T14 WR:44, T15 WR:37, T16: WR:28

  8. #1888
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Norway, Trondheim
    Posts
    5,214
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicy View Post
    Jin'rokh, Horridon, Megaera, Durumu, Primordius are fights where ret can compete with most classes on as long as your raidleader lets you play our strengths, which they should.
    Iron Qon is a shit fight for melee in general if they haven't fixed the hitbox issues from PTR, havent personally done Twin Consorts/Lei Shen yet, but Lei Shen looks like a strong fight for us aswell where we can compete with most classes on.
    No compared to other dps specs, where is ret good? I know where ret is able to play to it's strenghts but that doesn't mean we'll beat other dpsers. Also so far we've only seen normal mode, things change drasticly on heroic. Been on PTR? Heroic mechanics fuck melee over hard and the fights that favour cleave, multidot and aoe fucks ret in particular. Like saying ret is going to be competative on Horridon HC if we're 100% on the boss and just abuse the damage increase he takes, at that point you're dragging your raid down which is my point. Any job a ret can do this tier some other dps spec can do better. Sad but true.

  9. #1889
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    No compared to other dps specs, where is ret good? I know where ret is able to play to it's strenghts but that doesn't mean we'll beat other dpsers. Also so far we've only seen normal mode, things change drasticly on heroic. Been on PTR? Heroic mechanics fuck melee over hard and the fights that favour cleave, multidot and aoe fucks ret in particular. Like saying ret is going to be competative on Horridon HC if we're 100% on the boss and just abuse the damage increase he takes, at that point you're dragging your raid down which is my point. Any job a ret can do this tier some other dps spec can do better. Sad but true.
    Horridon has 1900 million hp on 25man heroic, you need some dpsers to stay on boss fulltime, how is that dragging the raid down?
    And yes, I did test most of the PTR bosses on both 10man heroic and 25man heroic.
    Last edited by Juicy; 2013-03-09 at 05:08 PM.
    "Remembrance of things past is not necessarily the remembrance of things as they were."
    Juseeh
    T11 WR: 115, T12 WR: 45, T14 WR:44, T15 WR:37, T16: WR:28

  10. #1890
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Norway, Trondheim
    Posts
    5,214
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicy View Post
    Horridon has 1900 million hp on 25man heroic, you need some dpsers to stay on boss fulltime, how is that dragging the raid down?
    And yes, I did test most of the PTR bosses on both 10man heroic and 25man heroic.
    Any melle you bring to Horridon you're most likely going to assign to interrupt or stun target which means dks will be insanely strong, Horridon dps comes from multidotters and ranged switching when the 3 special mobs are dead/taken care of. There's also stronger singletarget dpsers than ret you can stick on Horridon.

  11. #1891
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicy View Post
    Horridon has 1900 million hp on 25man heroic, you need some dpsers to stay on boss fulltime, how is that dragging the raid down?
    Because killing Horridon is not and will not be an issue, ever. He takes progressively more and more damage as the fight goes on and he takes 200% more damage for a while. Horridon is not a problem at all. The adds are much more important and that's why you will need to be on them, period, the end.

    Regarding Ret DPS compared to others, if you're not getting beaten by almost every other class in almost every situation, the people playing them suck. That's all there is to it. The only classes that shouldn't beat you consistently are Monks and Shamans - that's it.

  12. #1892
    Quote Originally Posted by Footsz View Post
    As a personal input I tried SOR with ~ 4-5 adds and noted a sizeable AOE increase. But some verification be nice, don't wanna seal swap too many times for no reason (or seal swap to a loss in DPS).

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-07 at 01:07 AM ----------



    The big benefit to using CS over Judgement normally is that CS has a faster cooldown, and will generate faster holy power. During avenging wrath (with sanctified wrath) that benefit is negated, because your GCDs will end up as this:

    HoW
    Judge
    HoW
    TV
    HoW
    Judge
    HoW
    TV

    The time between judgements is just long enough its cooldown comes back up, and we wouldn't be able to weave CS in more often, so we swap to judgement for SW'd wings.
    Thanks a lot!

  13. #1893
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Because killing Horridon is not and will not be an issue, ever. He takes progressively more and more damage as the fight goes on and he takes 200% more damage for a while. Horridon is not a problem at all. The adds are much more important and that's why you will need to be on them, period, the end.

    Regarding Ret DPS compared to others, if you're not getting beaten by almost every other class in almost every situation, the people playing them suck. That's all there is to it. The only classes that shouldn't beat you consistently are Monks and Shamans - that's it.
    200% still means it will take a while to actually kill Horridon, especially at 1900 mil hp. Also ret is nowhere near as bad as you both keep repeating all over again everywhere.
    "Remembrance of things past is not necessarily the remembrance of things as they were."
    Juseeh
    T11 WR: 115, T12 WR: 45, T14 WR:44, T15 WR:37, T16: WR:28

  14. #1894
    Quote Originally Posted by Prometheous View Post
    You should get the spark and primordius' trinket, those are our BiS for normal thanks to the ICD on the VP one. It is better than relic but only barely, I wouldn't waste my VP on it, save for ring/cloak/neck first.
    That doesn't really jive with any of the math I've seen. Spark, by all accounts is quite bad. Possibly because it can virtually never line up with cooldowns? I'm not sure.

  15. #1895
    Anyone with primordius trinket here? I can't stack it more than 3 it always fall off before another stack.

  16. #1896
    Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. I see that the trinket list here is different, and a few people disagree with the trinkets we recommend. I'm stalking MMO-C forums to find people who disagree and do some theorycrafting. Trinkets are tough, but we simulate all of them to get the average uptime (here's a list of those simulated values). This takes the RealPPM into account, as well as a person's Haste. Here's some in-depth details about how we handle trinkets. Also, we're using the latest proc information from Ghostcrawler.

    That being said, I'd like to make sure everything is working right on our trinkets, just in case one of them needs adjusting. For this exercise I'm using the stat weights of: STR (3.52), Haste (1.93), Exp (2.5), Crit (1.46)

    As you can see from that math, the Brutal Talisman destroys the other trinkets. Now, let's do a reality check with napkin math regarding these trinket procs:
    • Brutal Talisman: 15% chance for 15 sec w/ 75 sec ICD. That is a 20% uptime. So 20% * 8800 STR = 1760 STR
    • Darkmist Vortex: 15% chance for 20 sec w/105 ICD. That's a 19% uptime. So 19% * 7796 = 1481 Haste
    • Spark of Zandalar: Get 10 stacks once every 2 minutes (5RPPM). 20 sec duration over 120 seconds = 16% uptime. 16% * 8279 = 1325 STR
    • Primordius Talisman: 3 RPPM. So it's up for 10 sec out of every 20 sec for a 50% uptime. 50% * 1538 = 769 STR

    Now, Haste affects the RPPM, so let's apply about a 30% buff from extra procs to the two RPPM trinkets. NOTE!! Mr. Robot factors in your actual Haste when ranking the trinkets for your character. Anyway, the new numbers would look like this:
    • Brutal Talisman: 1760 STR
    • Darkmist Vortex: 1481 Haste
    • Spark of Zandalar: 1325 STR + 30% = 1722 STR
    • Primordius Talisman: 769 STR + 30% = 1000 STR

    So my question to all of you: am I missing something? (It's possible, we have data coming out our ears for our 5.2 updates). Or do you prefer the other trinkets for a different reason, since a lot of trinkets just come down to personal preference for people. Or does the math work out and make sense and Mr. Robot's original rankings are right?

    Edit: added to answer megraam: it will be very rare to stack it past 3. Even stacking to 3 is probably not that common. It should proc 3 times per minute, on average and last for 10 seconds, so you need procs to happen pretty quickly to even get to a stack of 3.
    Optimize your gear on AskMrRobot.com
    From Mr. Robot: Find the best gear in your bags, help & faq, and Preview our combat log tool.
    Mr. Robot is also on Twitter

  17. #1897
    As far as I know, for the talisman, the expertise aren't extra stats, you're going to be expertise capped anyway, therefore you need to calculate its value using our highest non-cappable stat, and even then it's a bit iffy, because that 1467 expertise might not fully become haste from reforging, parts may become crit or mastery. That's why you're overvaluing it.

  18. #1898
    Someone from the Mr. Robot team, cool. After reading your post I have a side remark regarding your stat weights:
    Personally I think (in most circumstances) Exp (and hit) should, at best, be of equal value to our strongest non-capable secondary stat.
    I know that we have some more experienced rets here, so I ask if you would agree with my logic?

  19. #1899
    Pinkcrusader, what would your reasoning be for setting them equal to your strongest non-cappable secondary stat? What are you trying to achieve with that? (note, that has NO snooty undertone, I'm really just curious to the reasoning... but you know how tone of voice gets lost on the internetz)
    Optimize your gear on AskMrRobot.com
    From Mr. Robot: Find the best gear in your bags, help & faq, and Preview our combat log tool.
    Mr. Robot is also on Twitter

  20. #1900
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkcrusader View Post
    Someone from the Mr. Robot team, cool. After reading your post I have a side remark regarding your stat weights:
    Personally I think (in most circumstances) Exp (and hit) should, at best, be of equal value to our strongest non-capable secondary stat.
    I know that we have some more experienced rets here, so I ask if you would agree with my logic?
    You're more likely to convert crit or extra expertise to mastery, but it depends on your gear, obviously.

    On another unrelated note, 42% haste is not possible (or not optimal) if you don't have ra-den loot.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •