1. #1901
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juicy View Post
    200% still means it will take a while to actually kill Horridon, especially at 1900 mil hp. Also ret is nowhere near as bad as you both keep repeating all over again everywhere.
    Keep telling yourself that and we'll talk again in about a month or two and you tell us how your guild killed Horridon and how we killed Horridon (if rets are taken) and then we might see. Keep in mind that I talk about how bleeding edge guilds will progress this, which means like top 20-30 or so world. Not top ~100 like the guild I'm in.

  2. #1902
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Pinkcrusader, what would your reasoning be for setting them equal to your strongest non-cappable secondary stat? What are you trying to achieve with that? (note, that has NO snooty undertone, I'm really just curious to the reasoning... but you know how tone of voice gets lost on the internetz)
    That would be because of reforging away of the expertise into our best 2ndary stat (haste) on other pieces of our gear.
    We get a 1467Exp trink ? : reforge it and then we reforge other pieces of gear with expertise to gain 1467 of haste or a mix of haste/mastery depending of personnal gear.

  3. #1903
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    You're more likely to convert crit or extra expertise to mastery, but it depends on your gear, obviously.

    On another unrelated note, 42% haste is not possible (or not optimal) if you don't have ra-den loot.
    I'm at 31.5% haste unbuffed atm,

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-09 at 11:10 PM ----------

    @ Zoopercat
    Don't know if you took Spark of Zandalars lack of an ICD into consideration. If you go by 10stacks at 120 seconds then "20" stacks will happen at 240 seconds, stacks build up again as soon as the first 10 is reached.

  4. #1904
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Keep telling yourself that and we'll talk again in about a month or two and you tell us how your guild killed Horridon and how we killed Horridon (if rets are taken) and then we might see. Keep in mind that I talk about how bleeding edge guilds will progress this, which means like top 20-30 or so world. Not top ~100 like the guild I'm in.
    If you're worried about not being taken into raids as a ret in a rank 40-100 guild, you might start considering trying to improve your play.
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  5. #1905
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    I'm at 31.5% haste unbuffed atm,
    T15 535 upgraded once with ra-den loot 16k+1k(bracers)=17k 17k/425=40%. You're not breaking 40% optimally without ra-den loot. and I'm aware that the reforge is messed up a little, but it's good enough to get my point across. you'd actually have a little less haste than that.
    Last edited by Reith; 2013-03-09 at 10:30 PM.

  6. #1906
    After some Iron Quon pulls with primordius trinket, let me say it's concluded in 3 letters: R. N. G.
    It was possible to stack it up to 5 stacks several times and ES damage is enormous this way.

  7. #1907
    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...67406013296640

    '@Ghostcrawler Are you going to fix the proc rate on the 5.2 trinkets? Currently they are way too unreliable.'

    '@Juseeh We're considering some pseudo randomization in players' favor. E.g. if no proc, increase chance next time. Avoids bad streaks.'
    "Remembrance of things past is not necessarily the remembrance of things as they were."
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    T11 WR: 115, T12 WR: 45, T14 WR:44, T15 WR:37, T16: WR:28

  8. #1908
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicy View Post
    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...67406013296640

    '@Ghostcrawler Are you going to fix the proc rate on the 5.2 trinkets? Currently they are way too unreliable.'

    '@Juseeh We're considering some pseudo randomization in players' favor. E.g. if no proc, increase chance next time. Avoids bad streaks.'
    I still think they should do that with loot to make more variety of items drop from bosses instead of it being completely and totally random, but at least they're considering a similar kind of mechanic for trinket procs because it's really dumb for feather and unerring vision.

  9. #1909
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    @ AMR

    You're missing 2 things imo:

    1) Cooldown allignment with said procs which is reallity not just brute numbers.

    and

    2) Passive trinket stat str = 2 , rating = 1. (Not accurate but not far off either).

    Basically only 2 things matter the proc and how usable it is with 30sec uptime-90sec downtime intervals and str vs rating passive (str being better).
    Last edited by Neldarie; 2013-03-09 at 11:27 PM.
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  10. #1910
    Juicy, that's good info on the proc stuff. I'll be sure to watch for any changes to the proc mechanics

    As for the EXP rating on the one trinket - you can test out the scores on Mr. Robot. If you lock in the other trinkets, the score goes down. If you leav the Brutal Talisman in, and reforge the other gear, the score is higher. You can play with it for your own gear, because the results might be different with your set of gear. That's one of the reasons we let people lock in gear.

    Neldarie, Can you elaborate? I think I've been running LFR queues too much today and don't totally follow what you're saying. Thx

    Huntingbear: Yep, we took all of that into account in the simulator. Good question.
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  11. #1911
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megraam View Post
    Anyone with primordius trinket here? I can't stack it more than 3 it always fall off before another stack.
    Well 3RPPM expected. Huge outcry on these trinkets I sense massive hotfixes to all these trinkets soon. They are ALL bad for all classes.

    Just caught up on reading and saw the twitter post above. So yeah trinkets should be fine.

    Also why we gotta talk a bout brutal talisman? makes me so emo that the ICD is so bad. We gave up a 20 second durationf or 15 sec with a lower icd.... but we want the longer icd... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU. Links up with recklessness and DK cooldowns tho. Dicks.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-10 at 03:13 AM ----------

    Lets just assume they fix all trinkets in the next month or so....

    I'm looking at Ji-kuns agian and just man.... those ES's with an extra 15k strength before armor/horn/guardian. Just sounds nasty.

    In theory if the FIX these trinkets It should link with wings with .5RPPM no?


    So.. Zandalar can't be used on pull and isn't guaranteed to be up with wings, Niether is ji's unless they fix it and it works with the RPPM system better.

    Brutal talisman are just like except larger proc compensated by a low duration because of the ilvl. I mean it has about as much chance to link up as any other abilities. Hell it could be BiS on Jin rhok if you hold your cds for the first pool.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-03-10 at 03:21 AM.

  12. #1912
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    @ AMR on average rating is around half of what str value is (due to reforging you will almost always see that reforged into haste or be pure haste to begin with), and well ret is alot about the wing burst intervals that happen every 90seconds for 30seconds.
    Last edited by Neldarie; 2013-03-10 at 04:06 AM.
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  13. #1913
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Juicy, that's good info on the proc stuff. I'll be sure to watch for any changes to the proc mechanics

    As for the EXP rating on the one trinket - you can test out the scores on Mr. Robot. If you lock in the other trinkets, the score goes down. If you leav the Brutal Talisman in, and reforge the other gear, the score is higher. You can play with it for your own gear, because the results might be different with your set of gear. That's one of the reasons we let people lock in gear.

    Neldarie, Can you elaborate? I think I've been running LFR queues too much today and don't totally follow what you're saying. Thx

    Huntingbear: Yep, we took all of that into account in the simulator. Good question.
    As I and others have said before, the only time when the expertise on that trinket should ever be valued using the Expertise stat weight, is if there is literally no other place where that expertise could be coming from(E.G. A naked character, except for the trinket). In reality, every raider is already expertise capped.

    If it's possible for the program behind MrRobot to track exactly what that expertise translates into(I.E the extra haste, crit and mastery), then you could use that to accurately judge the value of the trinket, using the stat weights for what you actually gain from it.
    Last edited by Afarensis; 2013-03-10 at 12:06 PM.

  14. #1914
    @Anaxie, your post was really helpful. Now I'm following better.

    Edit: Now I understand the cooldowns you're trying to time up. We'll see if we can figure out an automatic way to incorporate that into our site. We don't put static values on trinkets b/c they are selected based on stat weights, but maybe we can put a 'debuff' on certain trinkets that don't line up with procs - so that they end up being worth x% less.

    Napkin Math: Wing burst happens for 30 seconds every 90 seconds.
    • Wings: 0:00 - 0:30 / Talisman: 0:00 - 0:15
    • Talisman: 1:15 - 1:30
    • Wings: 1:30 - 2:00
    • Talisman: 2:30 - 2:45
    • Wings: 3:00 - 3:30
    • Talisman: 3:45 - 4:00
    • Wings: 4:30- 5:00
    • Talisman: 5:00 - 5:15
    • Wings: 6:00 - 6:30 /Talisman: 6:15 - 6:30
    • Wings: 7:30 - 8:00 Talisman: 7:30 - 7:45
    • Next time they proc together, the fight would be over. Let's call that 2 more procs.

    So it looks like they line up for 3 out of 9 procs, assuming the fight lasts past 6:00. If not, it only procs together once. Assuming a 100% proc rate for napkin math, of course. Yeah, that doesn't seem too optimal

    Afarensis - I agree that the EXP on that trinket is huge. It is 4% EXP alone. However, the Brutal Talisman is still coming up as better on the BiS list, even with the EXP because it saves reforges elsewhere. This might not be the case for everyone's gear though - which is why Mr. Robot looks at your set of gear when ranking. The stat weights and program do account for expertise vs all of the other stats, so that part is already working.

    I can't thank you all enough for the feedback, it's super helpful! This is why I'm talking MMO-C forums. Mr. Robot is a bad-ass mathematician, but some of these nuances each spec has with trinkets aren't obvious until someone mentions them
    Last edited by Zoopercat; 2013-03-10 at 08:34 PM.
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  15. #1915
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    Actually, I think you misinterpreted what Neldarie said. Wings is a 2min CD, not 1min30secs, so that will nudge your timers a bit.

  16. #1916
    Oh, thanks viveras. Can you tell me what cooldowns you'd want to time up with the trinket? Is it once every 2 minutes? Or both 90 and 120 second intervals? Thanks - I'll recalculate and bring that back to the team. Sorry for the 'easy questions' - I'm trying to stalk 34 specs/classes at once You should see the scribbles on the notepad next to me.
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  17. #1917
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Oh, thanks viveras. Can you tell me what cooldowns you'd want to time up with the trinket? Is it once every 2 minutes? Or both 90 and 120 second intervals? Thanks - I'll recalculate and bring that back to the team. Sorry for the 'easy questions' - I'm trying to stalk 34 specs/classes at once You should see the scribbles on the notepad next to me.
    There's three things you want to line it up with, Execution Sentence on 1 minute (fire and forget DoT effect that snapshots stats on cast), Avenging Wrath on 2 minutes with a 30 second duration and Guardian of Ancient Kings on 5 minutes with a 30 second duration. For Guardian of Ancient kings, it is optimal to have it up during the last 15 seconds of the buff due to the mechanics of the spell (stacking STR multiplier).

  18. #1918
    only 120sec intervals

    Besides, we can delay Wings to lign it up better.

    0:00 to 0:30 AW / 0:00 to 0:15 Talisman
    1:15 to 1:30 Talisman
    2:00 to 2:30 AW
    2:30 to 2:45 Talisman
    3:45 to 4:00 Talisman
    4:00 to 4:30 AW
    5:00 to 5:15 Talisman
    6:00 to 6:30 AW / 6:15 to 6:30 Talisman
    7:30 to 7:45 Talisman
    8:00 to 8:30 AW
    8:45 to 9:00 Talisman
    ....
    That would be the "robot" version of it

    A more realistic on for <8min fights (4AW uses maximum)
    0:00 to 0:30 AW / 0:00 to 0:15 Talisman
    1:15 to 1:30 Talisman
    2:00 to 2:30 AW delayed
    2:30 to 3:00 AW / 2:30 to 2:45 Talisman
    3:45 to 4:00 Talisman
    4:30 to 5:00 AW delayed
    5:00 to 5:30 AW / 5:00 to 5:15 Talisman
    6:15 to 6:30 Talisman
    7:00 to 7:30 AW NOT delayed if boss about to die
    OR
    7:30 to 8:00 AW / 7:30 to 7:45 Talisman


    So up to a 8min30 fight, its more valuable to delay CDs by 30sec each time to line it up with Talisman to guarantee optimal use
    But then come the "Bloodlust" question : do we delay CD for BL or for trink ?

    Then come other questions : a the time my trink is about to proc and I've delayed my CDs usage, will I be able to DPS for 20/30s in a row without movement/fight mechanics that waste my proc and/or CD ?

    So there really are no simple answer to your question right here but I hope some of these will help you for your calculus.

  19. #1919
    Meta and AF, thanks so much
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  20. #1920
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    only 120sec intervals

    Besides, we can delay Wings to lign it up better.

    0:00 to 0:30 AW / 0:00 to 0:15 Talisman
    1:15 to 1:30 Talisman
    2:00 to 2:30 AW
    2:30 to 2:45 Talisman
    3:45 to 4:00 Talisman
    4:00 to 4:30 AW
    5:00 to 5:15 Talisman
    6:00 to 6:30 AW / 6:15 to 6:30 Talisman
    7:30 to 7:45 Talisman
    8:00 to 8:30 AW
    8:45 to 9:00 Talisman
    ....
    That would be the "robot" version of it

    A more realistic on for <8min fights (4AW uses maximum)
    0:00 to 0:30 AW / 0:00 to 0:15 Talisman
    1:15 to 1:30 Talisman
    2:00 to 2:30 AW delayed
    2:30 to 3:00 AW / 2:30 to 2:45 Talisman
    3:45 to 4:00 Talisman
    4:30 to 5:00 AW delayed
    5:00 to 5:30 AW / 5:00 to 5:15 Talisman
    6:15 to 6:30 Talisman
    7:00 to 7:30 AW NOT delayed if boss about to die
    OR
    7:30 to 8:00 AW / 7:30 to 7:45 Talisman


    So up to a 8min30 fight, its more valuable to delay CDs by 30sec each time to line it up with Talisman to guarantee optimal use
    But then come the "Bloodlust" question : do we delay CD for BL or for trink ?

    Then come other questions : a the time my trink is about to proc and I've delayed my CDs usage, will I be able to DPS for 20/30s in a row without movement/fight mechanics that waste my proc and/or CD ?

    So there really are no simple answer to your question right here but I hope some of these will help you for your calculus.
    Except it's a 15% proc so will never be off at 75 exactly. Delaying wings is kinda stupid too. Better to just keep orders or something.

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