1. #1181
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    You can isolate P2 on world of logs and sort it by overall DPS, sha of fear dps and add dps as you want...
    that's beside the point tho, if there's no % damage increase on any fight rets are going to be behind on dps on a biblical scale.
    I can't understand how devs think rets are doing fine at the moment unless they're making half the T15 raids have % damage increases... which so far it doesn't look like.

    I don't know... besides the love for the spec there's not much going for ret, atleast for me...
    Feeling exactly the same. Being the raid leader of a 10m guild, I had to bench myself on Sha of Fear Heroic progression because Ret DPS is so terrible for p2 - especially for a 10m guild.
    Currently seeing not much of a point to bring a Ret Paladin for a 10m guild when you've got any other Paladin in your raid. It embarrasses me to be so much behind the other people in my raid despite my ilvl 508. And what's worse is that I'm still getting good ranks on WoL so it can't just be my own fault.
    Last edited by Snuzzfizzle; 2013-02-01 at 02:50 AM.

  2. #1182
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuzzfizzle View Post
    Feeling exactly the same. Being the raid leader for a 10m guild, I had to bench myself on Sha of Fear Heroic progression because Ret DPS is so terrible for p2 - especially for a 10m guild.
    Currently seeing not much of a point to bring a Ret Paladin for a 10m guild when you've got any other Paladin in your raid. It embarrasses to be so much behind the other people in my raid despite my ilvl 508. And what's worse is that I'm still getting good ranks on WoL so it can't just be my own fault.
    God I wish I was ilvl 508.. but yeah in 25 I at least don't feel like a burden.

  3. #1183
    Ret is useful for double bop/HoP/devotion aura. This doesn't cover how our damage sucks overall compared to other classes. More fun thing is that most of competitive rets at the start of mop used AW-HA prepull trick, it was removed to drop us down. Now I am sure that ALL competitive rets are using t11 prepull, which will be removed in 5.2 as well. I've been testing some bosses at PTR and I am at the solid 5 or even 6 place when we are dropping 1 healer for 1 dps and let me tell you that sucks.

  4. #1184
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    I'm 508 aswell, missing wep and tsulong ring for BiS if you don't count heroic elite protectors gear. Despite being one of the best geared dpsers in the guild, second best geared ret on the realm and so on doesn't stop me from scraping the botton of the barrel on many fights. Come T15 we get RNG set bonuses which is going to demand alot more micro management from our side without much of a damage boost (according to early simc), back in Cataclysm we had distinct abilities that hit hard and was our "main source" of damage. In MoP however our damage is split pretty even between our mastery (I suspect that will go up in T15 when mastery builds should be better than haste) TV, Exorcism, Crusader Strike and judgement. This also seems to be a problem in pvp, there's no "big hitter" that can cause preassure from rets in pvp except during CDs but then we get CCd/stun/dispell/silence and so on IF they don't LoS kite us.

    I know Anaxie has/had a post up on US battle.net forums but we need to be more vocal on ptr and live forums if things are going to change. By the looks of things devs are blind and can't see the issues with ret in pve and pvp, shame when the overall feel of the spec is the best it's been in years.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 11:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Megraam View Post
    Ret is useful for double bop/HoP/devotion aura.
    All other paladins also bring this, if you're in a 10man and you have a prot and holy paladin you don't have much need for a ret for paladin cds/utility.
    Same goes for 25man, we usually raid with 1-2 holy and 1-2 rets when we progress. We have 3 rets on roster and unless we lack melee for interrupts we're almost never going to be 3 rets in the raid because 4 paladins are usually enough to cover all magic aoe hits for CDs aswell as sac/prot/salv/purity hands. The 5th would only be there to "free cast" the raid cds whenever, sortof the same issue disc priests have. 1 disc priest in a raid = insanely good, 2 disc priests = good, 3 disc priests = shit. At some point things just don't benefit the raid enough to make up for other losses.
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  5. #1185
    Mechagnome Neldarie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuzzfizzle View Post
    Feeling exactly the same. Being the raid leader of a 10m guild, I had to bench myself on Sha of Fear Heroic progression because Ret DPS is so terrible for p2 - especially for a 10m guild.
    Currently seeing not much of a point to bring a Ret Paladin for a 10m guild when you've got any other Paladin in your raid. It embarrasses me to be so much behind the other people in my raid despite my ilvl 508. And what's worse is that I'm still getting good ranks on WoL so it can't just be my own fault.
    Ye, 100% agree, but 2paladins is still fine because you free holy from wasting gcds on purity = 1 and well you should focus at what rets are best at more on that specific fight in a 10man = tunneling boss. Just switch to adds when cleanups are needed. Then again in 10man people usually free huddles asap with passing the light unlike 25man so in that regard our usefullness does drop off a little.
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  6. #1186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    Ye, 100% agree, but 2paladins is still fine because you free holy from wasting gcds on purity = 1 and well you should focus at what rets are best at more on that specific fight in a 10man = tunneling boss. Just switch to adds when cleanups are needed. Then again in 10man people usually free huddles asap with passing the light unlike 25man so in that regard our usefullness does drop off a little.
    While I agree any 2 specs (except arms warriors, ele shamans and shadow priests) are going to outdps rets single target, so you could get something like 2 arcane mages instead of 2 rets tunneling boss and they'll do better.
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  7. #1187
    Mechagnome Neldarie's Avatar
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    Ye, ya could, but was talking strictly 10man there where raidbuffs and utility are actually pretty important while the dps gap also even bigger. And for p1 progress pre 15% hastebuff ret is prolly the strongest class there is
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  8. #1188
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    Oh yeah no doubts, I love it when we pull and use hero in P1 and I go up to 130% haste with trinket up, rather hilarious.
    After that though my dps drops harder than a hookers panties to a 50$ bill... which isn't quite as amusing.
    Sha of Fear P1 first 45 seconds. ~209k dps. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-p6...?s=5686&e=5730
    Sha of Fear P1 45-90 seconds. ~76k dps. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-p6...?s=5731&e=5772
    I might've been sent to one of the platforms late in the 45-90 second time window, anyways when Avenging wrath comes back off CD we jump up to 160-180k dps again... so sad.

    On any standstill no damage increase mechanics I do anywhere from 95-115k dps pretty much where simc show rets atm...
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2013-02-01 at 12:10 PM.
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  9. #1189
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Oh yeah no doubts, I love it when we pull and use hero in P1 and I go up to 130% haste with trinket up, rather hilarious.
    Aaaand you forgot you have not to use your cds on pull because there is a possibility you will be transferred to marksman and will have 2 options: hope to be carried by 2 other dps or wipe the raid.

  10. #1190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megraam View Post
    Aaaand you forgot you have not to use your cds on pull because there is a possibility you will be transferred to marksman and will have 2 options: hope to be carried by 2 other dps or wipe the raid.
    nah, 15% haste buff makes up for any cds.
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  11. #1191
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    I think giving rets SPECIFICALLY a raid-utility spell would maybe increase our utility as a SPEC. But nonetheless, if we are at the bottom of the charts, raid utilities won't change that.
    All of our utility spells are share with prots/hpals, which gives us as a spec no unique raid-bonus utility. We don't even bring our own buff (The 4% physical damage hardly counts).

    I think they should bring back Retribution Aura and make it some sort of Raid-benefit CD like Stormlash Totem. Maybe make it return like 50% of the damage taken by all players in the raid to the caster, something that would be extremely useful on a fight such as Heroic Will with the permanent AoE on the ground. If not that, at least make it benefit our dps a slight bit more by some random mechanic.

  12. #1192
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    While I like the idea of bringing back retribution aura the way you described it... uh would be way to OP in pvp.
    Much of the ret damage issues are from pvp balance already...
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  13. #1193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    While I like the idea of bringing back retribution aura the way you described it... uh would be way to OP in pvp.
    Much of the ret damage issues are from pvp balance already...
    Maybe only non-targetted damage? That might be a bit more fair for PvP and can still maintain some weight in PvE.

    They just need to improve the RAW damage. They keep playing around with burst like it will help anyone when all it's doing is just taking a shit and cleaning it up (Figuratively, that is).
    10% CS damage, 20% TV damage, a bit of everything. Then it's all good.

    The main thing that i think is keeping Blizzard away from the idea of ever putting rets near the top is the fact that we are a Hybrid Class. It seems like they always want to keep the solid dps classes (Hunters, mages, warlocks and rogues) on top, while randomly just tossing around the Hybrid classes. And usually, we get the short end of the stick. Rarely does a Hybrid class end up on top; and when they do, they get mega nerfed afterwards as "punishment".

  14. #1194
    Quote Originally Posted by Saferis View Post
    The main thing that i think is keeping Blizzard away from the idea of ever putting rets near the top is the fact that we are a Hybrid Class. It seems like they always want to keep the solid dps classes (Hunters, mages, warlocks and rogues) on top, while randomly just tossing around the Hybrid classes. And usually, we get the short end of the stick. Rarely does a Hybrid class end up on top; and when they do, they get mega nerfed afterwards as "punishment".
    Except that's not true at all and you'd know it if you were doing any high-end raiding or even just casual PVPing in Cata. It's also not true now either, because Fury Warriors are "hybrids" but they're up there in PVE along with affliction warlocks and arcane mages. Hunters are a pure, but they're not up there. it has nothing to do with being a hybrid or not being a hybrid.

  15. #1195
    Quote Originally Posted by Saferis View Post
    Maybe only non-targetted damage? That might be a bit more fair for PvP and can still maintain some weight in PvE.

    They just need to improve the RAW damage. They keep playing around with burst like it will help anyone when all it's doing is just taking a shit and cleaning it up (Figuratively, that is).
    10% CS damage, 20% TV damage, a bit of everything. Then it's all good.

    The main thing that i think is keeping Blizzard away from the idea of ever putting rets near the top is the fact that we are a Hybrid Class. It seems like they always want to keep the solid dps classes (Hunters, mages, warlocks and rogues) on top, while randomly just tossing around the Hybrid classes. And usually, we get the short end of the stick. Rarely does a Hybrid class end up on top; and when they do, they get mega nerfed afterwards as "punishment".
    To us, as players, it seems so easy to buff our sustained damage but just giving small buffs to things like CS, RV, Exo, etc. Small buffs to stuff we're using all the time. To the devs they feel like doing that would require a major nerf to our burst and they've said things before like "Wings as a 5 minute cooldown for more sustained damage, that feels wrong" or "reducing wings to 10% damage? That wouldn't go over well" etc. Things of that nature are thrown around all the time. While it would suck to have iconic abilities nerfed some (as if we haven't seen it enough in the last 3 years) it sucks even more hardly being competitive damage wise and having utility that saves us in VERY specific instances. I just don't understand where the disconnect is between the devs and the players and it's really frustrating.

  16. #1196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Except that's not true at all and you'd know it if you were doing any high-end raiding or even just casual PVPing in Cata. It's also not true now either, because Fury Warriors are "hybrids" but they're up there in PVE along with affliction warlocks and arcane mages. Hunters are a pure, but they're not up there. it has nothing to do with being a hybrid or not being a hybrid.
    Fury warriors and other such classes with 2 dps specs are what I'd consider "half hybrid". I'm not talking about this tier (for this statement), but for a overall view. Hunters were up there during DS, and other tiers, same as DK's were OP during the first tier of wrath. Remember this is my opinion; feel free to disagree with it but I find it to be accurate.

  17. #1197
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    The issue with ret "buffing" is that we scale insanely high.
    Increase base damage slightly then damage will be higher (duh), haste will be better, mastery will be better and str will be better.
    IMO would make more sense to rework our mastery (too late now..) since that's what makes or breaks all of our abilities, or you could mastery only work off finishers and buff the fuck out of mastery scaling so we have a decent finisher and not a wet noodle finisher.
    At the moment if they buff anything it seems like it's going to scale out of proportion too quickly, maybe that's what they fear will happen... still doesn't justify that ret is so far behind on single target dps when that's what we're supposed to be "good" at...
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  18. #1198
    Quote Originally Posted by Saferis View Post
    Fury warriors and other such classes with 2 dps specs are what I'd consider "half hybrid".
    There's no such thing as a "half-hybrid" lol. You couldn't even make up a reasonable definition for that made-up term. A hybrid can do more than one role; they can switch between roles. That's the definition of a hybrid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saferis View Post
    I'm not talking about this tier (for this statement), but for a overall view. Hunters were up there during DS, and other tiers, same as DK's were OP during the first tier of wrath. Remember this is my opinion; feel free to disagree with it but I find it to be accurate.
    Shadow Priests were definitely one of the top DPS in PVE. Boomkins were also really good. Where was the hybrid tax then? Oh wait, blues already said no such thing exist.

  19. #1199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    There's no such thing as a "half-hybrid" lol. You couldn't even make up a reasonable definition for that made-up term. A hybrid can do more than one role; they can switch between roles. That's the definition of a hybrid.


    Shadow Priests were definitely one of the top DPS in PVE. Boomkins were also really good. Where was the hybrid tax then? Oh wait, blues already said no such thing exist.
    As i mentioned, other hybrid classes have their "15 minutes of fame". Some more than others. But the reason behind my statement has to do with the simple "blizzard nerfs one spec and buffs another" during every new tier. If one class has three specs (AKA the pure dps classes as listed earlier), odds are one of their specs will be nerfed, but one buffed. As i stated with "half-hybrid" earlier, (Note: the term is not to be taken literally but only to compare to the group I listed as "hybrids"), a warrior for example will have 2 dps specs, one being nerfed and the other maybe being buffed in a tier. The occasions where these "half-hybrid" classes are not up to par is when one spec is nerfed and the other isn't touched. Then drop down to us, that being "hybrids", where we don't have the option of switching to another similar spec to make up for one that has been nerfed since we have only ONE spec with our role.

    If you'd consider it as, let's say, blizzard works around with a spec every tier but buffs it every three. Then rets will only be buff every three tiers, while warriors every 1 or 2, while pure-dps classes EVERY tier.

    This is all statistical and based on no real or past patterns. Again, like I said, if you don't agree with me, then so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    The issue with ret "buffing" is that we scale insanely high.
    Increase base damage slightly then damage will be higher (duh), haste will be better, mastery will be better and str will be better.
    IMO would make more sense to rework our mastery (too late now..) since that's what makes or breaks all of our abilities, or you could mastery only work off finishers and buff the fuck out of mastery scaling so we have a decent finisher and not a wet noodle finisher.
    At the moment if they buff anything it seems like it's going to scale out of proportion too quickly, maybe that's what they fear will happen... still doesn't justify that ret is so far behind on single target dps when that's what we're supposed to be "good" at...

    I completely agree with your idea of our mastery only working on finishers. That would really improve things consistently. I mean TV's don't really hit as hard as the work spent to charge HP up to use it, but this is because blizzard threw mastery onto several spells.
    Last edited by Saferis; 2013-02-01 at 11:37 PM.

  20. #1200
    Mechagnome Neldarie's Avatar
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    Rets don't scale well nor ever did. Stuff like warriors is what always did tho (current arms aside). So using that as an excuse, to fail and aknowledge the dire straits like early tier11, FL progress, maybe? next tier, is pretty poor understanding of the class mechanics tbh.
    Last edited by Neldarie; 2013-02-01 at 11:46 PM.
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