1. #2641
    Those simulationcraft results don't take into account aligning CDs

  2. #2642
    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    Those simulationcraft results don't take into account aligning CDs
    first of all, YES it does by its very nature. it sims a patchwerk fight like 10,000 times. in those 10,000 fights, there are attempts where the procs align perfectly, there are those where they align partially, and those where it does not align at all. while simcraft does not take into account aligning ES with massive STR procs like with feather10, this affects all trinkets about equally.

    also, 1:15 ICD means it does NOT align with AW or ES at all. it procs on pull, then again 1:20 after pull, then again 2:40 after pull (taking :05 proc delay into account). since AW expires after 2:30 even with SW, and delaying ES for 20 seconds in hope of a proc is a DPS loss, VP trinket is not better than 522 spark. the only thing you could possibly state is that spark isn't active during the first ES when everything has procced, but it likely is on the second.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  3. #2643
    Oh you mean it sims fights where you use your brain to delay your CDs judging by the fight duration (using timetodie or past logs) to align it perfectly anyway without losing any full usage of CDs ? Come on...

    But yeah okay, quote some random numbers and be an absolute, to each his own!

  4. #2644
    delaying cds to align them with procs is a fundamental and usually subjective topic (because it's so situational). some people try to stack everything and gamble by waiting on procs and all stars align, but that style also brings a lot of RNG (don't need numbers to prove this I'm sure). then there's people who avoid holding their cd's and use them when they are available because most of the times this will give them a higher dps than if you delay everything. the latter of course being much easier to execute and gives you time to focus on everything else going on.

    now with so many RPPM procs I feel it's hard to argue for the side of where you delay cd's. because of this, simcraft results, despite having questionable APL's, are more reliable than in the beginning of the expansion.

  5. #2645
    Yeah, this playstyle is punitive/risky with rppm trink, but not with predictable ICD trink like shado pan, and that's what makes it (slightly) better than horridon, because with a 75sec ICD it's just math wether or not you delay CDs

    And guaranteed CDs with 8800 STR is better than guaranteed flat CDs on pull (no zandalari warrior here) and *maybe* 7330 STR during 1 or 2 CD usage *if you are lucky*.

    Then again, being good at delaying CDs is a judgement call, a good planning ahead of fights etc... I agree with that, that's why, for the shado-pan talisman only, I don't trust sims

    For rppm trink, well, RNG is RNG, best of luck ranking and go deeps hard

    535 spark trumps shado-pan bay a fair margin though, this only count as a comparison between N spark 522 and 522 shado pan talisman

    My 2c, /kiss

  6. #2646
    Also, Anaxie I think you jynxed us all when you said this before ToT release.


    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post

    HOpfully itt's not off the final boss. That trend of sticking it to 2H classes is getting old. Let casters/ hunters/ rogues have their BIS weapon off Lei shein Kthx.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  7. #2647
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    Also, Anaxie I think you jynxed us all when you said this before ToT release.
    You have a bis weapon. You aren't allowed to speak anymore. Poor Killmour has a 517 still.

  8. #2648
    Ty kindly for the trinket comments, I was thinking the same about the valor trinket, mostly because I am not that high end player but a little below so tracking all the icd's and lining everything up all the while learning the fights is a little much for me,lol.

    I do make a go of it at times though

    Another quick thought, with having the tier 15 2pc is there any thought to re-gemming from haste to mastery, or a better question may be, when if ever will we favor mastery over haste.

    Thanx again folks and btw I enjoy the vids of the ones who have posted, good stuff.

  9. #2649
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy8 View Post
    Ty kindly for the trinket comments, I was thinking the same about the valor trinket, mostly because I am not that high end player but a little below so tracking all the icd's and lining everything up all the while learning the fights is a little much for me,lol.

    I do make a go of it at times though

    Another quick thought, with having the tier 15 2pc is there any thought to re-gemming from haste to mastery, or a better question may be, when if ever will we favor mastery over haste.

    Thanx again folks and btw I enjoy the vids of the ones who have posted, good stuff.
    550 ilvl weapons after 5.3 launches could start favoring mastery easily. Personally for Lei Shien H Mastery should be about as valueable as haste with the downtime allowing wings to come up off cooldown.

    Post 5.3 I'm likely to go a full mastery build once I get a Bo-ris 541/ Gemming/ whatever. If anyone can put up ranks 1s if the build truely comes out superior it would be me. Barring our fun feather n tv procs =/

    However due to GCD reducing meaning... more attacks and RPPM trinkets increase on an internal haste formula it may be impossible for anything to beat haste till 50% hardcap. However I have no doubt by time org comes Mastery will be beating strength along with haste. Personally I believe mastery is beating strength the second you get a 522+ Ilvl Fabled Feather + spark
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-05-02 at 08:40 PM.

  10. #2650
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    550 ilvl weapons after 5.3 launches could start favoring mastery easily. Personally for Lei Shien H Mastery should be about as valueable as haste with the downtime allowing wings to come up off cooldown.

    Post 5.3 I'm likely to go a full mastery build once I get a Bo-ris 541/ Gemming/ whatever. If anyone can put up ranks 1s if the build truely comes out superior it would be me. Barring our fun feather n tv procs =/

    However due to GCD reducing meaning... more attacks and RPPM trinkets increase on an internal haste formula it may be impossible for anything to beat haste till 50% hardcap. However I have no doubt by time org comes Mastery will be beating strength along with haste. Personally I believe mastery is beating strength the second you get a 522+ Ilvl Fabled Feather + spark
    sim it. no reason to just believe something if you can do the math.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  11. #2651
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
    sim it. no reason to just believe something if you can do the math.
    Considering sims don't take fight mechanics, Downtimes in fights that allow higher CD to boss uptime, and the benefits of feather doing it's 50% uptime range that still isn't modeled correctly. Sims are the same as toilet paper. Full of shit.

    If a fight this tier doesn't have a huge damage buff gimmic skyrocketing mastery it has an AoE component which also skyrockets the stat to the suggested value. Or in the case with Lei Shien, significant downtime that allows you to get more cooldown uptime on him vs downtime with them.

    Alot of people won't see the results I'm talking about because 99% of the ret playerbase are unlikely to see 530+ Ilvl values until T16 launches.

    Anyhow I'm not going to rely on any program when I can personally test it. Been playing this spec at a top level for almost 8 years now without needing them and getting the correct results and priorities while sims are still being modeled correctly. Some players may scoff at the reality of how I do things. If they can actually beat me in practice or prove something in a logical matter without the use of them then they have my attention.

    Lets consider another part where the Exo debuff is valued VS CS failing to proc during cooldowns. However SoL going to 30% meaning CS will be 15% stronger while exo still stays the same being the only On cast ability not affected. Then you scale in 2/2 Weapons and a Full fledged 549 weapon mastery is starting to look pretty good and CS in pure damage getting damn close to Exo or even surpassing it if you go an entire full mastery build. I said much earlier getting Bo-Ris and pushing mastery > haste you would end with 25% haste <our T14 BiS value> and about 75% buffed mastery. That is a pretty significant amount.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-05-02 at 10:35 PM.

  12. #2652
    I just grabbed the heroic Primordius trinket.
    Im using Lei Shen's Final Orders and Feather atm.
    Is it worth replacing Orders with Primordius trinket?

  13. #2653
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Bo-Ris being BiS + Cloak + upgrades our stats should look something like..... 50% mastery 40-41% haste 14-15% crit. 541 Consort boots BiS because the Expertise would overcap us on ra-den shoes and the other stat is crit which blows.

    Every single item would have MASTERY and HASTE on them in some form. Seems like a win situation to me anyone see it differently?

    Also Post 5.3 in maxed out BiS we are looking at between 55-56k Weapon damage outside of a raid setting.
    It's plain to see what Templar mastery hits are going to look like with 50% mastery and 56k weapon damage.

    For some perspective I'm only at 40% mastery currently thanks to Shitty hit sword and no VP upgrades enables and only 42.5k Weapon damage with a 535.

    However 2/2ing the weapon and the patch alone will put me at 52k weapon damage and change. I don't know how competitive most of you are on single target fights in your raid but this is going to make me retarded op.

    with 5.3 buffs a 541 vs 535 is around 2,200 weapon damage I could get the exact number again but that is close enough to understand what you're missing
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-05-03 at 06:22 AM.

  14. #2654
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Bo-Ris being BiS + Cloak + upgrades our stats should look something like..... 50% mastery 40-41% haste 14-15% crit. 541 Consort boots BiS because the Expertise would overcap us on ra-den shoes and the other stat is crit which blows.

    Every single item would have MASTERY and HASTE on them in some form. Seems like a win situation to me anyone see it differently?

    Also Post 5.3 in maxed out BiS we are looking at between 55-56k Weapon damage outside of a raid setting.
    It's plain to see what Templar mastery hits are going to look like with 50% mastery and 56k weapon damage.

    For some perspective I'm only at 40% mastery currently thanks to Shitty hit sword and no VP upgrades enables and only 42.5k Weapon damage with a 535.

    However 2/2ing the weapon and the patch alone will put me at 52k weapon damage and change. I don't know how competitive most of you are on single target fights in your raid but this is going to make me retarded op.

    with 5.3 buffs a 541 vs 535 is around 2,200 weapon damage I could get the exact number again but that is close enough to understand what you're missing
    are you saying that in 5.3, paladins are going to be like pre ragefix warriors in that they are mediocre at low to medium gear levels but scale crazy at heroic and higher?
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  15. #2655
    Hope I don't break a discussion here but I would like to know if there is any trinkets in ToT there will put crit higher than mastery i have just gotten my hands on a Gaze of the Twins, thunderforged and since it procs only of crit. So i was wondering if a trinket like that one would put crit over mastery?

  16. #2656
    Quote Originally Posted by ashll View Post
    Hope I don't break a discussion here but I would like to know if there is any trinkets in ToT there will put crit higher than mastery i have just gotten my hands on a Gaze of the Twins, thunderforged and since it procs only of crit. So i was wondering if a trinket like that one would put crit over mastery?
    crit is already slightly simming above mastery. the reason we stack mastery after haste is because it's more reliable than crit because of less RNG. the difference is minor anyway, and mastery scales far better with haste.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  17. #2657
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashll View Post
    Hope I don't break a discussion here but I would like to know if there is any trinkets in ToT there will put crit higher than mastery i have just gotten my hands on a Gaze of the Twins, thunderforged and since it procs only of crit. So i was wondering if a trinket like that one would put crit over mastery?
    No it sucks feather is miles better and spark is farily predictable. Until we get a REASON to crit there is no reason to ever stack it.

  18. #2658
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    I picked up the crit trinket (stacks str on crit or whatever), if the buff duration on the stacking buff was 15 seconds rather than 10 it would be better, stood 1hr on dummy and never got it maxxed, rarely I got it to 3 stacks. I think I got it to 4 stacks once or twice but it's so clunky and almost impossible to use with your cds... That said the trinket isn't for us, it's for the warriors... you know, the special melee.

    *edit*
    I'm not using the trinket, I picked it up so it wouldn't get disenchanted and I was curious to see how it worked out in a combat situation and not just depending on estimates.
    9thorder.com | 14/14 Heroic 25-man | West 114 | Recruiting for Warlords of Draenor!

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  19. #2659
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Wanna get my hands onto a HTF Spark. Shits gona be almost a 10k proc once you upgrade it. Nom nom nom nom nom

  20. #2660
    okay great good thing i got first on the next feather and spark in my guild. thanks for the help

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