1. #6281
    Quote Originally Posted by JemiS View Post
    Yeah, I figured that was the case after the fact. And trinket drops hate me. 14 Gala kills with coins between LFR and Flex, and 9 Thok kills + coin between LFR, Flex and Normal. Gotten every other piece off the loot table (some multiple times), but no trinket on either. 46 chances with no trinket is starting to get really old.

    I should go back and try to get the ToT N/H trinkets, I just keep hoping one of the T16 ones will drop for me. I can just swap in an old trinket (Feather or Spark from T15LFR) and sim my stat weights without the proc to get a better idea.

    I'm using the reforge instead of haste gems, as it gets me closer to just over the cap with less wasted stats.

    3x 160 expertise = 480 instead of 468, meaning I'm another 12 expertise over cap. ATM I'm at 7.53, this would put me at ~7.57 expertise. I've play around with the reforging to get it there, but with 22 expertise "wasted", I was guessing it was better to use the STR/Haste gems.
    160 exp is ~40-50% better than 80 str, so you can go ~50exp over cap per gem.

  2. #6282
    Epic! Swampmoose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Timonium, Maryland
    Posts
    1,510
    Quote Originally Posted by Maegor View Post
    And this is why so many people say to stop at 40% haste. They know more haste sims higher, but in actual practice there are factors both in your hands (rotation crispness) and out of your hands (lag) that cause too much haste to behave less favorable in real world applications. But Felic always bucked at the 40% thing when a lot of people (Bear, Anaxie, Solsacra) said it worked better in game than going full haste.

    Not that questioning accepted theory is bad, shit if nobody questioned accepted theory we would still be living on a flat planet in the center of the universe. Just that at some point, you have to go see what works best for you, especially in the case of 40% haste.
    Agreed. Anytime you have a stat that has a value which can be immediately altered by something like player input or lag, a red flag should go up saying, you probably want to test this yourself. You can run an infinite number of sims but if your abilities as a player are far off from simulation, those sim results don't have much value for a stat like that.

    You can lean on sims more for stats like crit which are just a roll of the dice, but even the values of those stats can be altered somewhat by a player if they butcher things enough. You're also assuming the sim is properly calculating damage as the game would (back to Str > hit example).

    Its difficult to tell people to see what works best for them when you have stats that are very close to one another in value (crit vs mastery as an example). It's just impossible to do enough self evaluation in a raid setting to reliably say X > Y. Even if you killed Heroic Boss A once every week for a year, you only have 52 tests which you need to split between the two stat priorities.
    Last edited by Swampmoose; 2014-01-23 at 08:50 PM.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...t&n=Swampmoose

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikoll
    Stop getting horny goo, judge on cd.

  3. #6283
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    The Dark Side
    Posts
    440
    It's actually quite the opposite : Mastery better for ST while Crit, relative to each other (hi cloak, hi no hammerwrath spam) stronger for AoE.
    WoW = Retired Main: Ret Alt(s): War , DK

    Diablo3

  4. #6284
    inq ds_4t16_5hp inq tv5 inq how inq tvaw inq cs inq j ds_4t16 inq exo tv3 inq tv4 (e: SW, not DP, but if someone could throw me a sweet DP one thatd be sweet)

    what im using for clcinfo. can someone tell (confirm) if this is the proper thing i should be using?

    also, wtb more ret paladin friends on btag to talk ret paladin things and be kawaiiiiiiiiiiiiiii together.

  5. #6285
    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    It's actually quite the opposite : Mastery better for ST while Crit, relative to each other (hi cloak, hi no hammerwrath spam) stronger for AoE.
    If DS crits does it crit everything?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elamahpla View Post
    inq ds_4t16_5hp inq tv5 inq how inq tvaw inq cs inq j ds_4t16 inq exo tv3 inq tv4 (e: SW, not DP, but if someone could throw me a sweet DP one thatd be sweet)

    what im using for clcinfo. can someone tell (confirm) if this is the proper thing i should be using?

    also, wtb more ret paladin friends on btag to talk ret paladin things and be kawaiiiiiiiiiiiiiii together.
    I would personally clean up the inq's. Clcret is priority based, so if you are at 3 hp and need inq, it will jump it to the front. But that is really more housekeeping than anything. I also move my ds_4pc up in the order to match OP's placement of ds_4t16_aw, and just adjust rotation for when aw isn't active.
    Last edited by Maegor; 2014-01-24 at 05:18 AM.

  6. #6286
    I reforged all my gear to haste40%>crit>mastery for 2 weeks now (still keeping mastery sockets and stuff untouched) and I'm seeing quite funny results in raid. I lost about 10-12% mastery but gained about 8% crit, leading to 35% crit raidbuffed. The first result is that me and my ret buddy in raid still perform almost the same (small differences in gear putten aside). The second result is that on pull I'm able to put out far more burst dps than in mastery form, sometimes even bypassing our rogues for a short time (+800k DPS FINALLY YEAH!). I'm also still doing well on the siegecrafter belt. For me, I don't see any major differences or even disadvantages. I'll stick with crit for now, maybe even consider going full crit with gems and test that.
    | Lychnuchus | Männlych | Natürlych | Gebrechlych |

    f'*$% your infractions, my signature was smaller than 500x100 and >50 kb. Someone needs a life.

  7. #6287
    Quote Originally Posted by Elamahpla View Post
    inq ds_4t16_5hp inq tv5 inq how inq tvaw inq cs inq j ds_4t16 inq exo tv3 inq tv4 (e: SW, not DP, but if someone could throw me a sweet DP one thatd be sweet)

    what im using for clcinfo. can someone tell (confirm) if this is the proper thing i should be using?
    As already said, all that inqs except the first one are useless. tv4 behind tv3 is also useless.

    The following string was build after the priority list used in SimulationCraft and works for both SW and DP:
    Code:
    inq inqdp ds_4t16_5hp tv5 tvdp_2s how ds_4t16_aw tvaw cs j ds_4t16 tvdp exo tv3
    You need to rename the rotation.untested file to rotation.lua in the latest version of clcInfo to get the ds_4t16_aw and tvdp_2s commands.

  8. #6288
    Stood in the Fire Weightlifter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    463
    Quote Originally Posted by Elamahpla View Post
    also, wtb more ret paladin friends on btag to talk ret paladin things and be kawaiiiiiiiiiiiiiii together.
    I am the most kawaii paladin EU :3

  9. #6289
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    I am the most kawaii paladin EU :3
    Hawaii isn't in Europe

  10. #6290
    High Overlord Zardox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by Maegor View Post
    If DS crits does it crit everything?
    [20:04:50.542] Zardox Divine Storm Kor'kron Warbringer *362551*
    [20:04:50.542] Zardox Divine Storm Kor'kron Warbringer 131000

  11. #6291
    Quote Originally Posted by Maegor View Post
    How much of a swing of crit and mastery did you have from each of these builds? Did you actually go in and change reforges and gems around or just add to their values in simc like you did previously? 50k sims (since 50k will usually provide the smoothest curves)? Can you post stats with each build?
    It was around 4k mastery reforged into crit (not added). I don't remember other details, so I decided to redo the experiment.

    The mastery build is my current armory setup: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ffert/advanced
    It has 17575 haste (41.35 %), 13397 mastery and 5638 crit rating.


    For the crit build, I changed by current mastery gems with crit ones and reforged pieces where I could make a dirrect crit -> mastery change without messing with anything else. This resulted in 5272 mastery rating being moved to crit, everything else staying the same.


    I ran each setup 3 times at 50k iterations with length of the fight being 300 seconds varied by 20 % and chose the median low-end result for each to post here.
    While the average dps and range stayed somewhat constant between the runs (mastery range being around 16900, crit range around 16700), the absolute worst and best results were varying by several thousands from run to run even with 50k iterations (there was over 12k difference between 2 of the mastery high-end results).

    With these results, I have to say that without having a way to find out something like 1 percentile results from simcraft, I am unable to say which of the stats produces more consistent damage for our purposes. We know that mastery has wider range, but that can be a result of having higher but less frequent top-end.
    The reason why we were getting conflicting results in the past as far as low-end dps goes is because the error of our method is bigger than the difference we saw in 2 different builds.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    It's actually quite the opposite : Mastery better for ST while Crit, relative to each other (hi cloak, hi no hammerwrath spam) stronger for AoE.
    Your examples support your statement correctly, but the damage affected by mastery is higher percentage of our overall damage in AoE situations compared to single target, mostly due to Divine Storm being really high.

  12. #6292
    i ran like 44% haste this week (ceebed regemming from tanking garrosh previous week) and managed r3 ij r1 malk and r1 thok. although i usually sit about 42.75%ish haste anyway. felt better to me with my latency (175ms, straya).

  13. #6293
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    That one place
    Posts
    1,637
    Quote Originally Posted by xarxz View Post
    i ran like 44% haste this week (ceebed regemming from tanking garrosh previous week) and managed r3 ij r1 malk and r1 thok. although i usually sit about 42.75%ish haste anyway. felt better to me with my latency (175ms, straya).
    Don't want to/mean to sound like a dick or anything, but I don't know what the point of saying this is = /

    It's either a) anecdotal evidence that can't be used to support/disprove any stat being better than the others
    or b) agreeing that % haste is a personal preference, usually 40+ for the extra HoW, which I think we all agree on anyway

    Again, not tryin to sound like a jerk, just confused
    "You little hoochees!" - Daos, Lord of Terror

    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    "NEENER-NEENER RETS ARE WIENERS."

  14. #6294
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredzilla View Post
    Don't want to/mean to sound like a dick or anything, but I don't know what the point of saying this is = /

    It's either a) anecdotal evidence that can't be used to support/disprove any stat being better than the others
    or b) agreeing that % haste is a personal preference, usually 40+ for the extra HoW, which I think we all agree on anyway

    Again, not tryin to sound like a jerk, just confused
    anecdotal evidence all over the last few pages. two guys sim and make conflicting arguments, basically championing their favourite stat.

    what im trying to say is that even though
    ij: pure st
    malkorok: burst aoe phases
    thok: st with some disconnects and 1 sustained aoe phase
    are all different types of fights, its fine to have any amount/distribution secondaries. strat and rng are far bigger factors.

    i have the bis list missing a few wf here and there (except im using the crit sword; havent seen the polearm)

  15. #6295
    High Overlord Zardox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by xarxz View Post
    anecdotal evidence all over the last few pages.
    Doesn't make it more valid.

  16. #6296
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    That one place
    Posts
    1,637
    Quote Originally Posted by Zardox View Post
    Doesn't make it more valid.
    True enough, and at least with simcraft, despite any possible errors in its set up and whatever discrepancies may exist between it and any given real fight, it can sim thousands upon thousands of encounters as its programmed to. Those aren't anecdotal numbers. Which is why we know not to go for strength over our secondaries. If simcraft was considered anecdotal evidence, we couldn't trust it for anything at all ever.

    That being said, it's always much better to know the given parameters of the sims being linked. Things like this only matter if you can duplicate them.
    "You little hoochees!" - Daos, Lord of Terror

    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    "NEENER-NEENER RETS ARE WIENERS."

  17. #6297
    Perhaps I came at you for no reason Swampooze, that was not my intent. I was just excited to see a discussion that actually still matters with actual theorycrafting going on to back it up, this late into the tier. Regardless if you're 14/14 HC or not, understanding why it happend or how is always good to know. I like where the thread is right now, people are being constructive and are supporting most of their arguments with math, theory, practical experience or logs and not refuting eachother. I remember it was basicly me vs. 27 fanboys when I came in here and started the whole "Stop saying Feather blows Spark out of the water" and "40% cap should be taken with a grain of salt". I'm glad we finally sorted it out.

    Dad is proud.

  18. #6298
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredzilla View Post
    That being said, it's always much better to know the given parameters of the sims being linked. Things like this only matter if you can duplicate them.
    yes

    you can only trust patchwerk encounters with sims.

    its extremely rare for me to ever see 3 adds in melee on malkorok because ranged in my guild like to go berserk as they spawn. other guilds have a paladin tank which can bring them in easily and quickly for cleave.
    you might screw up your glider on ij and have to run all the way back in.
    some bats might stick to the thok tank as they come in.
    you might go to a new guild and they let you tunnel nazgrim in d stance.
    one week you may have more warriors in raid, the next you may have more shamans. one of these may disconnect or lag or mistime their banner/lash.

    just a few scenarios which directly impact the validity of simulations. unfortunately you dont get 50k attempts per week to average it out. just the one.

    even if you can accurately sim the exact encounter from start to finish, you WILL still get screwed over somehow. i dont argue with the results of sims on hard and fast single target tunnel encounters because it is the scenario in which fewer factors can come in to play. you dont have to stop dps, move, switch to adds or waste gcds bopping etc. so much of your damage is externally impacted by the skill and actions of the other people in your raid. so weird for an mmo...

  19. #6299
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    My Throne
    Posts
    6,487
    you know what i do on Maloraok since we had 5 chain wipes from retards 5 weeks ago? I put RF on and afk the fight and get all 3 add sto middle instantly fight ends with me doing like 38 million to bloods. But at this point 1 night clear > wiping like to be on WoW as little as possible till WoD if that makes sense.

    Also funfact this week one shot everything up to thok. Then wiped to thok for an hour and then an hour or 2 the second day. Then one shot the last 3. A far cry from our 4 hour full clear week before by far.

  20. #6300
    disregard ranks, acquire one night clears.

    its the dream...

    too many times oneshotting everything up to like siegecrafter then wiping on paragons for two hours. demolish both paragons and garrosh in one attempt the next night...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •