1. #1441
    Quote Originally Posted by catablitz View Post
    I think it started around page 3. Don't get me wrong mate, I do respect anyone who is using his knowledge and time for greater good, but you have to realise that some world class players take every detail seriously because they translate sim numbers to real time playstyle and can sometimes exaggerate on their point especially when experience and history proves them correct. In any case I am not judging behaviours.

    On a sidenote, you personally dissapoint me by stating in EJ forums that you are fine with burst over sustain dps, since there is a tradition for blizzard to deem highly said forums, but this is another story.
    so that's nice, blizzard steers their design philosophy on opinion of one forum thats f..... great .. now i know why is ret in such great state without cds lmao.. can you please passthrough a mace to me so i can punch myself in face for being an idiot and sticking to this class
    Last edited by Ianus; 2013-02-22 at 11:12 PM.

  2. #1442
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valex View Post
    Btw im curious, what profiler do you guys use to test out gear sets? char.dev has alot of stuff missing and I'd like to mess around with the 5.2 stuff to see whats what.
    I've been using wowreforge.com the trick with it is you can click on an item and modify the stats of the item. By modifying the items you can basically create the profile of the gear you want do the reforging and see where you can get. The part that matters the most is adding hit make sure you are adding a gem it doesn't matter about the set bonus unless the bonus is Hit or Expertise. If it is Hit or Exp you just make sure not to match that color so the values aren't thrown off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  3. #1443
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catablitz View Post
    On a sidenote, you personally dissapoint me by stating in EJ forums that you are fine with burst over sustain dps
    After reading that I suddenly realized that I wasted my time reading previous stuff...
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  4. #1444
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    anyone been on PTR with the latest build? I can't for the life of me get above 100k dps in a 25man raid with flasks and trying to manage T14 bonuses and the fight mechanics...
    Ofc 300 ms doesn't help and playing from EU on US based PTR realms... anyhow!
    How are you other rets finding PTR with the latest build without T11 prot pre-pull thing?
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  5. #1445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    After reading that I suddenly realized that I wasted my time reading previous stuff...
    The only complaint with burst neld is that if something happens mid cds like... huddle , cackles, exhales, hide tons of mechanics can just shut us down burst wise.

    And you can usually wait to do it in a timeframe where it won't be negated by those but doing so unsyncs it with at the very least Lei shiens and enough pushbacks on a long fight can cost you an entire cd.

    Or you get instances like Blade lord where the only way to get a full SW in is to pop it after a strike. Most of the time you're gonna be running out of temprest throwing hammers at him capping your HP. It's not entirely useless talent wise considering a rank 13th I put up recently even while fumbling with talents during my first cooldown because of super ninja pull. While I usually laugh at rank 13ths compared to 1s the whole Asian Ilvl thing has shit pretty badly skewed so... yeah.

    Anyhow back ontopic on stuff like blade lord doing more dps would be easy without a ton front loaded into burst. I'm sure we will see a few later on. IN the end I don't really care about burst or sustained I care about the big picture just like you. I'm kinda fond of Hammerdin time too .

    TLDR I agree with you burst / sustained doesn't matter a ton but we still need to have consistent single target / aoe compared to the best spec of each class.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 03:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    anyone been on PTR with the latest build? I can't for the life of me get above 100k dps in a 25man raid with flasks and trying to manage T14 bonuses and the fight mechanics...
    Ofc 300 ms doesn't help and playing from EU on US based PTR realms... anyhow!
    How are you other rets finding PTR with the latest build without T11 prot pre-pull thing?
    It's not gonna be a big deal to lose it. Never used it anyway. =/
    I do wonder how widely used this was tho.. like if it skewed blizzards numbers for us in 5.1 maybe we should get some albit minor compensation.

    Hell i sit half the raid fights because I'm just so exhausted with raiding after so many tiers. Glad i did tho, new tier so soon and I'll never get a break in this because of TF.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 04:09 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Balhale View Post
    What meaningful feedback regarding Simcraft have I ignored?
    It's not that it's just scary when the simcraft dev ret does questionable things... like using 5/5 T14 ret and 2/2ing the shoulders... or 2/2ing a darkmist Normal instead of just using relic, and you are still reletively green to the spec with very little high end raiding experience as Retribution.

    It's little things that makes me take anything you have to say with a tuckload of salt. I'd get into the early beta development for simc that myself and requ had to help you with while disregarded every valid opinion on what was wrong. But that was discussed and is still avail to read. If you want to discuss things thats cool but show me hard numbers to back up opinions. And by numbers I mean logs.

    Players like Nelda I hold in extreme high regard and pay attention their input. But that is because they have proven themselves to be one of the best players in the spec in the world. It sucks that the Simcraft dev shoes your filling was Pbad's and he fit that imagine exactly. Hell he bumped me off several times and showed us all just how powerful the Creche was when we were initially ignoring it for just one example.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-02-23 at 04:22 AM.

  6. #1446
    Just want to point out there is a Thunderforged Polearm in the list on the front page atm. Take it for what its worth.

  7. #1447
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoons View Post
    Just want to point out there is a Thunderforged Polearm in the list on the front page atm. Take it for what its worth.
    Trash drop thunderforges. That is to be expected. Until we see a boss drop on journal and a heroic TF version don't get ur hopes up.



    ---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 04:43 AM ----------

    Apparently the DK howling blast buff was... Base damage? well I guess maybe they might not be getting buffed as hard as we thought...
    Might of frozen wastes was compensation for a broken OP 2 set... how op? Think 4pce ret prenerf broken.

    Perhaps we are balanced now for tier? Time will tell.. Itemization has a pretty high chance to break us tho.. haste shouldn't drop below 25% tho the extra sockets make that a guaranteed thing.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-02-23 at 04:50 AM.

  8. #1448
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    Issues with ret in pve = 1). lowish overall output, 2). and very inferior AoE.

    Burst can be considered as "utility" and in >most< cases it actually outweighs high sustained when it comes to PvE. Like playing around encounter mechanics / knowing when to actually put that burst to use etc etc. Many fights in the past had those moments where all you want to do is "throw kitchen sinks" at shit to make the cut (ragH p3, magmaw weaken etcetc).

    I actually agree with people who prefer ret as a high burst model spec. Unless well ya wanna really homogenize everything WoW ever had...
    Last edited by Neldarie; 2013-02-23 at 04:57 AM.
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  9. #1449
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    Issues with ret in pve = 1). lowish overall output, 2). and very inferior AoE.

    Burst can be considered as "utility" and in >most< cases it actually outweighs high sustained when it comes to PvE. Like playing around encounter mechanics / knowing when to actually put that burst to use etc etc. Many fights in the past had those moments where all you want to do is "throw kitching sinks" at shit to make the cut (ragH p3, magmaw weaken etcetc).

    I actually agree with people who prefer ret as a high burst model spec. Unless well ya wanna really homogenize everything WoW ever had...
    We will have to see the T15 set in full swing with 2 min SW wings active and of course the Capacitate gem. Hopefully ret still has broken proc mechanics from jar of abomb era. Unless we got completely gutted with Gurth, hopfully the sword was what was changed.. not us.

    AoE tuning phase should be soon. If howling blast doesn't get gutted I'll consider it a total failure.

    They cant buff DS too much either because if they do were gonna be in a situation where without TV proc up we storm. I think a 150% DS would make that a reality no? Then again it would be aoe and single target buff XD I'd take it.

    Honestly the easiest solution would be simply DS spreads censure. Repeated DS bursts would of course then ramp up our aoe as censure begins to stack. The would be a hell of alot better then tabbing between targets to spread censure on every single enemy to keep up in multitarget.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-02-23 at 05:00 AM.

  10. #1450
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    Remove DP, get on use 10-15sec duration 40-60sec CD ability that makes your DS hit for a little less, cost 0 holy power and apply censure to targets it hits. And there ya have a proper AoE cd.
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  11. #1451
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    Remove DP, get on use 10-15sec duration 40-60sec CD ability that makes your DS hit for a little less, cost 0 holy power and apply censure to targets it hits. And there ya have a proper AoE cd.
    That would be awesome... 0HP? maybe even broken lol.. but goddamn we need somethin.

    If they are intent on making us the burstadin give us aoe burst too.

  12. #1452
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Just buff Censure damage by like 5-7k damage per second and make it a unique debuff so you can only have it on one target at a time... doesn't have to be complicated.
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  13. #1453
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Just buff Censure damage by like 5-7k damage per second and make it a unique debuff so you can only have it on one target at a time... doesn't have to be complicated.
    That would exacerbate the problem of terrible cleave unless they put all their eggs in Divine Storm.

  14. #1454
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    That would exacerbate the problem of terrible cleave unless they put all their eggs in Divine Storm.
    They could add a dot to our cleave crusader strike (forgot the name of spell, it's 06.20 in the morning ptr testing and analysing shit all night)
    I'm trying to avoid anything that's going to involve haste or in particular mastery because it's going to work on everything (including burst) which is going to cause pvp issues. Hell why even add a dot to the cleave crusader strike? why not increase the holy damage wave it does? I think DS and TV are fine but they really should make the T15 4set have it so cleave crusader strike can proc an increased DS aswell considering how much cleave there's to do in T15 encounters...

    While they're at it they should make the cleave crusader strike require no target so we can break stealth shit, think of it like a no stun shockwave. Get 1 holy power if we hit anything.
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2013-02-23 at 05:28 AM.
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  15. #1455
    DS aoe spreading censure is an excellent idea to the point of overfixing things (gief!), but... it requires SoT and wouldn't that mean permanent exile of SoR which was supposed to be buffed?


    Actually Huntingbear gave a great idea. What about HotR giving 1 HoP per target hit?
    Last edited by catablitz; 2013-02-23 at 11:00 AM.

  16. #1456
    Quote Originally Posted by catablitz View Post
    DS aoe spreading censure is an excellent idea to the point of overfixing things (gief!), but... it requires SoT and wouldn't that mean permanent exile of SoR which was supposed to be buffed?


    Actually Huntingbear gave a great idea. What about HotR giving 1 HoP per target hit?
    Like I proposed on EJ, HotR would make sense spreading censure. DS is a finisher. Period. So far, my predictions for HotR as CP builder and DS as finisher came true.
    Also, SotR "exile" would mean much to the improvement of Quality of Life due to removal of stance-dance crap.

  17. #1457
    I don't see the issue with ret being a burst class, it makes us unique. I feel what the rest of you are missing is that we should be asking them to completely remove all other damage and cram it all into our burst - no damage at all unless AW or GoAK is active. Then we get to cut the bullshit and AFK for 60-90 seconds at a time, while seeing satisfying numbers. Losing DPS due to the cenure ticks are less of an issue, because it's still hitting like a truck until it fades.

    It'll also address the PvP issues. "We have no damage outside of CDs" - truer than ever. "Execution sentence, although in use being a DPS gain, simply doesn't tick all that hard" - No longer an issue, now the second tick will hit for overkill on a tank unless pain suppression and a tanking CD are active. Think of all the fun other players will be having... You'll get to see 3 teams of Disc, Holy, Blood out of sheer fear that they might come against a ret pally. Bolder teams might be Disc, Resto, Demo. Though, more popular might be Ret, Ret, Ret. If this is found to be in any way unbalanced, I'm sure Blizzard will resolve it some time in the next arena season.

  18. #1458
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    It's not a problem that ret is a burst oriented spec, but when we have to chose between using our burst to keep our overall dps on a acceptable level (which is still 5-7k dps behind any other dps spec in T14 BiS gear) or use our burst when it's "needed" in the encounter? Don't get me wrong, having a strong burst is very handy for fights like Council of Elders in T15 or Spine of Deathwing in Dragon Soul... but there's rarely more than 2 of theese type of fights in a tier which means we'll be wanted in 2 encounters out of 10-14.

    Also there's specs in wow that burst as good as rets or close to us and they got 10k more sustained dps than us, yes I also agree that ret should be a "bursty" spec but not at the cost of being rock bottom by such a huge gap like we are at the moment.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 04:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by catablitz View Post
    DS aoe spreading censure is an excellent idea to the point of overfixing things (gief!), but... it requires SoT and wouldn't that mean permanent exile of SoR which was supposed to be buffed?


    Actually Huntingbear gave a great idea. What about HotR giving 1 HoP per target hit?
    max 1 holy power per HotR wave, otherwise it would be op.
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  19. #1459
    I think it'd be great if they could just buff/remove DP to the point where it was the "sustained damage" option. HotR spreading Censure sounds like a great idea. One that's been around on this forum forever and they haven't done. They could even have HotR debuffs stack in 5 charges. 2% reduced damage each charge and also add a damage component, like adding 2% to holy damage taken from finishers. I don't really mind the 1 HP for each target hit, but it may be a little OP. Maybe cap it at 3? Maybe the more targets you hit with it reduces the CD on it? So, if there's a ton of adds you can SotR / DS spam. Just brainstorming, so none of this is even remotely fleshed out to be a viable idea yet.

  20. #1460
    The HotR change that someone suggested above wasn't taking about the HP gain, it was more about being able to use HotR without a target, and giving the one Hpower charge that it normally does IF we hit anything, which I think is a great idea.

    DS spreading Censure would be awesome, but I think Blizz is scared to do that on fights where we would have like 20 enemies with Censure, Censure hits quite hard to kinda support our single target sustained, if that went into our aoe at a huge capacity like that our aoe would be through the roof. If saidchange was to occur Blizz would probably cap Censure targets at 5 or something, which I think it okay.

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