1. #1401
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catablitz View Post
    Well, as far as the sustain dps expectations are concerned, I wouldn't hold my breath...It seems that some theorycrafters in EJ have no problem whatsoever with the huge discrepancy between burst and sustain phases. Given the fact that it has become quite funny that many blue answers have followed feedback and concerns expressed from said forums, I get the feeling that burstadin will never change. At least not as long as EJ squad is fond of the current situation.
    It's actually better imo to have roughly the same average output but do with burst highs and lows rather than flat sustained dps - let's you take more advantage of burn phases, e.g. H-Wind Lord or the end of H-Elegon. See also ret's burst on Spine in DS.
    Looks like Balfail just talking to himself over at EJ. Burst is better to have then sustained he says? Oh lawd

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    Last edited by Malthanis; 2013-02-25 at 08:07 PM.

  2. #1402
    The changes aren't on the PTR yet but as soon as they are I'll be doing a shit-ton of dummy tests. I guess like 7 minutes every time? or something. It'd be way better if they still had the raid test dummies...

  3. #1403
    I think it's maybe time for some of you to get over yourselves with this "sustained" circlejerk. Currently, assuming SW which is likely to be used in most cases, we're looking at 1m 30s of "downtime". I'm having a hard time figuring out in what situations this leaves us so severely behind. Please enlighten me if you have obvious examples from this tier and the next. Currently I only see a problem with our aoe and cleave abilities and from what we hear adjustments are inbound there as well.

    In 5.1 we've been middle of the pack, only outclassed by specs known by all to be op. Somehow I feel many of your worries boils down to the feeling like it should be our turn to be top dog.

  4. #1404
    Quote Originally Posted by Ostwind View Post
    I think it's maybe time for some of you to get over yourselves with this "sustained" circlejerk. Currently, assuming SW which is likely to be used in most cases, we're looking at 1m 30s of "downtime". I'm having a hard time figuring out in what situations this leaves us so severely behind. Please enlighten me if you have obvious examples from this tier and the next. Currently I only see a problem with our aoe and cleave abilities and from what we hear adjustments are inbound there as well.

    In 5.1 we've been middle of the pack, only outclassed by specs known by all to be op. Somehow I feel many of your worries boils down to the feeling like it should be our turn to be top dog.
    Middle of the pack on single target sure, but then you have a fight that adds the possibility of cleaving or AoE'ing then we shoot to the bottom. This is where our problems lie. The 2 minute AW puts us right where we should be right now for single target. What we need now is a true cleave, or a major buff to our AoE.

    Also you're using the word sustained differently. Let me clarify.

    Burst + Sustained = Overall Damage

    We wanted higher overall damage or what most people mistakenly call "sustained." Every melee class above us also got buffed (warriors were buffed and nerfed) which is why most rets feel we still need more overall dps now. Look at frost DKs for example, they had better single target, cleave, and AoE damage than us and still got MORE buffs than we did.

  5. #1405
    The Patient Dmchomerun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ostwind View Post
    I think it's maybe time for some of you to get over yourselves with this "sustained" circlejerk. Currently, assuming SW which is likely to be used in most cases, we're looking at 1m 30s of "downtime". I'm having a hard time figuring out in what situations this leaves us so severely behind. Please enlighten me if you have obvious examples from this tier and the next. Currently I only see a problem with our aoe and cleave abilities and from what we hear adjustments are inbound there as well.

    In 5.1 we've been middle of the pack, only outclassed by specs known by all to be op. Somehow I feel many of your worries boils down to the feeling like it should be our turn to be top dog.
    I think the point you are missing is if we didn't have cooldowns, we would be doing Cata DPS (Just a little sarcasm I guess). The only reason we sit where we are on the charts and ranks with other classes/specs is because of our burst damage. I personally enjoy the rotation to some degree and enjoy how the spec feels, the problem is damage outside of our burst every two minutes. With this recent change to AW, it keeps us right in the middle of the pack; but I think a lot of other Retribution players (at least the ones that give a damn about the current state-of-affairs of the class) feel that the problem is that we rely too much on our cooldowns and our speels deal too low damage outside of cooldown periods. You would think that using Templar's Verdict, a finisher that takes 3 global cooldowns to use, would hit harder than it currently does.

    The biggest thing is that Retribution players DO NOT WANT to have to rely on cooldowns.

    And to be honest, I am more worried about the gear itemization for then next patch now after the most recent changes to Retribution.
    Last edited by Dmchomerun; 2013-02-21 at 01:29 AM. Reason: -
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  6. #1406
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    I just want them to stop making our class solely reliant on burst. It would be nice to see just a solid sustained dps tier where cooldowns seem so "in the past". I just really hate them to the point where the class is so boring and all i think about while dpsing is "On to the next AW...".

  7. #1407
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    Who gives a shit about how ya deliver those numbers in one big bulk of burst or sprung over 2min of ABC juggling? Middle of the pack single-target you say? Check again, you're wrong.

    Bottomline is simple. Total output is the only thing that matters not BURST or SUSTAIN or w-e the fuck else ya wanna call it.
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  8. #1408
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    The 2 min AV cd is all fine and dandy but it doesn't help at all in our sustained dps issue, which fights do we pop CDs as soon as they come up? Patchwerk fights or fights with no "down time" or no "burst phases" and it's in theese kinds fight we actually can say that shorter burst cd = higher average DPS.
    But encounters don't work like that, Lei Shi is a great example, there's frequent down phases and damage potential fluxiate alot. I've hold on to AV for 30+ seconds just because I know there's a burst phase or hero coming up in that time, then the overall dps is effectivly dropping because rets rely on their CDs to have "competeative" overall dps, which is stupid beyond imagination.
    They can make so many changes or atleast try them now that PTR has been running for a good month but instead they sit around waiting for us to quiet down.
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  9. #1409
    Does the 2 minute AW change mean we'll be using Sanctified Wrath most of the time now? And should they fix that tier of talents to even it out some? I'm not sure of how they really rank currently. I've been Protection most of this tier and haven't kept up. I thought that we used HA if we had the 2-pc and SW if we had the 4-pc. I'm just trying to ascertain how this change affects that tier of talents. Thoughts?

  10. #1410
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanyn View Post
    Does the 2 minute AW change mean we'll be using Sanctified Wrath most of the time now? And should they fix that tier of talents to even it out some? I'm not sure of how they really rank currently. I've been Protection most of this tier and haven't kept up. I thought that we used HA if we had the 2-pc and SW if we had the 4-pc. I'm just trying to ascertain how this change affects that tier of talents. Thoughts?
    Actually, before this, Sanctified Wrath probably would've had trouble competing with the increase in weapon damage and T15 set bonuses.

  11. #1411
    If you're 600 or more over hit cap, would it be adavantageous to use haste gems instead of hit?

    I have a gear set that may be a dps increase if I could trade the hit for something else.

  12. #1412
    im tempted to keep t14 till heroic with the 10% judgment/seal damage change going on our old 4pc bonus. not sure if t15 normal is better than 517 t14.

  13. #1413
    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    Who gives a shit about how ya deliver those numbers in one big bulk of burst or sprung over 2min of ABC juggling? Middle of the pack single-target you say? Check again, you're wrong.

    Bottomline is simple. Total output is the only thing that matters not BURST or SUSTAIN or w-e the fuck else ya wanna call it.
    Sure, if you can sit on the same target all fight long.

  14. #1414
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rahkarn View Post
    If you're 600 or more over hit cap, would it be adavantageous to use haste gems instead of hit?

    I have a gear set that may be a dps increase if I could trade the hit for something else.

    Reforge the hell out of that hit!

    And if it comes partially from gems, re-gem out of it.


    Being over hit cap is fine, but don't allow yourself to be over hit cap with the hit not reforged or not gemmed.
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  15. #1415
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Sure, if you can sit on the same target all fight long.
    By that I ment almost bottom WITH sitting on same target all fight long :P
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  16. #1416
    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    By that I ment almost bottom WITH sitting on same target all fight long :P
    Isn't that the main concern for Rets, though? That you get easily replaced by Warriors/DKs because you're forced to do a role that is hard to get away with in my situations. We can't just look at total damage done when progressing through a raid.

    Not only does this question the viablity of Rets during progress but it's also the main reason I personally don't enjoy the spec as much as I do playing a dot class that is all over the place or just wrecking everythinig with AoE damage.

  17. #1417
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    Thats the thing even if you don't bring any utility to the raid (rets actually do) and do the best overall dmg you will still get a spot. What I was refering to was the class performance which is very irrelevant in what it comes in terms of dmg (burst or sustain) as long as the grand total is big enough. Middle of the pack would actually be quite great for a ret to validate the spot. Sure damage isn't everything when you are evaluating that said role, but it is a major aspect/contribution/what ya bring to the raid.

    Main problem with this game is how it favours ranged. If you want to design interesting encounters with new and fresh mechanics you will favour ranged by default. So what I do not understand is why melee dps aint overpowered as it SHOULD be considering the "high upkeep". And yes t14 was really boring fights as a whole. Let's see if ToT changes it and where melee (ret specificly) end up in terms of demand in progress raiding.
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  18. #1418
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Most guilds have atleast 2 holy paladins (25man) so devo and hand abilities doesn't exactly have a great value vs warrior banners and hp buffs and higher dps.
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  19. #1419
    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    Let's see if ToT changes it and where melee (ret specificly) end up in terms of demand in progress raiding.
    Don't get your hopes up. This teir and every one since the beginning of time favors ranged.

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  20. #1420
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Actually, before this, Sanctified Wrath probably would've had trouble competing with the increase in weapon damage and T15 set bonuses.
    So, SW is the way to go in 5.2? Or is it still pretty much up in the air depending on the fight?

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