1. #3801
    (Sorry if this question was asked before, but digging through 190 pages isnt easy)
    Is the shado pan valor trinket comparable to drop ones(normal versions), I just got back in to WoW after a break and trying to gear up my pala, but I have no idea if i should buy the trinket or some other pieces, I won't do heroics this tier at all most likely so only normal gear taken into consideration, any adivces ?

  2. #3802
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    If you need one more AM (or RC for that matter) the obvious move is to take one more warrior or paladin, simple matter of fact is that dps is tighter than healing (survival) during progress anyways and healers are 9/10 times the ones getting swapped for a dps. Why would you "need" another (or more frequent) AM/RC/Tranq if you're hitting enrage? You don't, you need dps which warriors bring the most with the trinket.

    For STR dps it should be Warriors > Rets > your mom > dks
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  3. #3803
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    I am not sure why I continue to browse this thread only to read players saying Retribution is still not as strong as other melee. Ret is very strong and frankly the best melee class in the game right now to bring to raids.

    My guild is currently 25m 11/13H and basically more often than not I am above our warriors, rogues, and DKs on the meters on most fights in ToT. We all have around equal gear at 542-545 item level.

    I've played with various raiders/classes around 542-547 level (through heroic raid pugs and the like) and still, I come out on top or near the top competing very strongly.

    Basically, I have never been bottom of the barrel in ANY raid this tier and have been on the upside of the meters while still offhealing and providing utility spells/auras to those who need.

    Anybody who says a melee spot should go to a warrior or a DK over a Ret is wrong.

  4. #3804
    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    Whatever you been saying mate. But there is NO fight nor EVER will be one where extra AM > extra RC+SB. Not sure where you live maybe its the moon but unlike you I have seen this game's content inside out and mostly "top-end". Then there is another factor as Charles stated some pages back: Cutting edge guilds will prolly not waste loot on Rets in the first place. That is even now when Rets aren't actually shit, but in regards to what both Warrior and DK brings in the picture as a whole: they are shit.

    The point charles made is a better one than you're trying to make. Literally all I've said is "we don't know all the encounters yet, we don't know how valuable the trinket is going to be yet, they could make encounters where we need the faster Devo aura cd" and you're going off on some tangent about how you think I don't know top end raiding or something. Its a pointless argument and I'm done responding to you if you're just going to make ad hominem and "i'm better than you" responses. Also for the record, I've been raiding top end or damn near since vanilla.

  5. #3805
    Quote Originally Posted by Kowloon View Post
    I am not sure why I continue to browse this thread only to read players saying Retribution is still not as strong as other melee. Ret is very strong and frankly the best melee class in the game right now to bring to raids.

    My guild is currently 25m 11/13H and basically more often than not I am above our warriors, rogues, and DKs on the meters on most fights in ToT. We all have around equal gear at 542-545 item level.

    I've played with various raiders/classes around 542-547 level (through heroic raid pugs and the like) and still, I come out on top or near the top competing very strongly.

    Basically, I have never been bottom of the barrel in ANY raid this tier and have been on the upside of the meters while still offhealing and providing utility spells/auras to those who need.

    Anybody who says a melee spot should go to a warrior or a DK over a Ret is wrong.
    THIS in my Raid is the same scenario! warri,dk are sooo bad we have 3 ret's and rocking all the time the meters!

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  6. #3806
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    "My guild is yatta yatta of yatta yatta and rets are doing fine!"
    Yes but we're talking progression, yes rets are looking mighty strong on ptr atm and should be 3rd melee choice for progression after rogues and warriors. DKs and Rets will be close on the third pick melee but we'll see how ptr goes and maybe dk grips and so on turns out to guarantee them a spot in raids, again.

    When we're 2 months after progress started class balance and shit doesn't matter as much as it does when the actual race is happening.
    Also, "our rets are doing fine" yes that might be true but how's the skill on your players? how much do they care? DPS on a fucking meter isn't = skill.
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  7. #3807
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    "My guild is yatta yatta of yatta yatta and rets are doing fine!"
    Yes but we're talking progression, yes rets are looking mighty strong on ptr atm and should be 3rd melee choice for progression after rogues and warriors. DKs and Rets will be close on the third pick melee but we'll see how ptr goes and maybe dk grips and so on turns out to guarantee them a spot in raids, again.

    When we're 2 months after progress started class balance and shit doesn't matter as much as it does when the actual race is happening.
    Also, "our rets are doing fine" yes that might be true but how's the skill on your players? how much do they care? DPS on a fucking meter isn't = skill.
    I haven't been on the PTR for this upcoming raid at all but unless the changes coming to warriors/rogues in 5.4 are that drastic, I do not agree with you whatsoever. Ret should be #1 choice for progression.

    Obviously, DPS on a meter isn't the end all because a half-brained twit can pad meters. That is why Retribution should be even more so chosen over other melee because (for example) we can instant cast FoL for 150-200k on targets whenever possible and still provide very competitive DPS through the entire encounter.

  8. #3808
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kowloon View Post
    I haven't been on the PTR for this upcoming raid at all but unless the changes coming to warriors/rogues in 5.4 are that drastic, I do not agree with you whatsoever. Ret should be #1 choice for progression.

    Obviously, DPS on a meter isn't the end all because a half-brained twit can pad meters. That is why Retribution should be even more so chosen over other melee because (for example) we can instant cast FoL for 150-200k on targets whenever possible and still provide very competitive DPS through the entire encounter.
    That shows how much of the progression race at the top 5 world you understand then.
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  9. #3809
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    That shows how much of the progression race at the top 5 world you understand then.
    Maybe the problem isn't the retribution class as a whole but the individual players themselves.

  10. #3810
    I can't think of any single encounter where you'd pick a ret for their healing capabilities as a dps. Suggesting a ret should get a raid spot because they can save a person with a instant flash of light is as stupid as saying a warrior should be taken cause he can taunt a boss and use die by the sword to "tank" it for 8 seconds.

    If your flash of light was able to save a person, then you're not doing something good, whoever is dying is a mong and took avoidable damage and/or healers are bad.

    In majority of guilds, it comes down to player skill vs player skill, but in top end raiding everyone is so close that it comes down to class vs class / spec vs spec.

    Going by the journal, I also can't think of any fight in siege of orgrimmar where AM > Cry+Banner combo. If by some random reason there is one fight like that, you'd most likely swap a healer for a holy paladin and still keep the ret out of the raid.

    Been raiding the past 2 weeks with Divine Purpose (Last week 30% haste 48% unbuffed mastery build). i'll do a sanctified wrath mastery run again this week and get some comparisons up.

  11. #3811
    Throwing a few FoLs doesn't make us non replaceable, neither does AM which is situational at most and only slightly better than smokebomb/AMS, AND holy and prot have it also.
    Rogues have great mobility, amazing switch/cleave capacity, which we don't. Dk have the Mass-grip, Mass-snare which are amazing in every fight with adds sensible to CCs, better switching/cleave capacity and their DPS is less hurt by movement thanks to their pet, Death coil, strong diseases and such.

    Even in terms of personal defensive CDs, cloak+feint+elusion+vanish are better and on shorter CDs than any of our CDs. AMS and death pact too., though IBF is shit for dps DKs.

    So yeah, in terms of raw damage, Ret is fine, but raw damage is rarely the key to kill a boss aside from patchwerk-style fights, which aren't many (maybe 1-2 per tier) and even then, we only dps as much, we are far from OP, and the amazing burst that used to characterize us is now only not bad, thanks to enhanced sham, assa rogues and others I surely forget..
    Besides that, DPS on your meters/logs depends on so many things to so many levels aside from how viable your class is. I would only cite raid composition, Rdps, strategy, your specific role in it... and I'm not being exhaustive.

    We are a viable choice for any semi-hardcore guild, but to compete at the highest level and catch those world first, it has yet to happen a Ret is absolutely better than any other melee. And no, it is not because of our damage done.

    The problem in this thread is most people seem to be too lazy to set the context in which they are telling things, and are monolithic on their point of view and act childish at first sight of debate.

    As for the ptr trinkets and set bonuses, I won't even get into this because fighting like mad dogs and being as absolute as we can read here about things that are WiP is just pointless, unless you are talking conditionnal at all time, provide extensive testing and are actively participating in official sticky blue post and twitter to try and make things better.

    Oh, and I love ret, it has never been so fun since our broken time in ICC and I don't care if don't play the most OP class/role combo. I just play it because it is viable in my progress context without me slowing back my guild, and because I love it.
    Did I say I love ret ? Here, Ret is fun, Ret is cool.

  12. #3812
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    regardless of which str dps gets more our of the CDR trinket, it does not matter. you gain MUCH MORE DPS by using the other 2 viable options that using it would possibly make your raid take more of that AOE damage that you wanted to avoid in the first place. if your needed the extra CD's that badly then your healers are possibly lacking, your dps is lacking hence your healers strain longer, or the encounter is just broken. if it stays as is, the crit stacking trinket is gona be another ji-kun, except its MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger. i'm more or less interested in this rumor about gorehowl and these other weapons. if they have procs themselves then im interested to see how these things will work with our current PTR kit. then again, its looking more or less like a wait n see type of deal once more.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And as for the whole which dps is better, at this point it doesn't matter. last time i checked all 3 str dps classes were at least relatively close on sims, all 3 brought some sort of utility for certain fights, and the ptr is changing things about all 3 of them. we don't know who is going to be the best next patch till it lands. and as far as im concerned, no one who is not in the top 5-10 guilds gives a flying shit what class you are ATM, stop standing in fire and do your rotation, priority right and no one cares.
    as far as i know, this last tier cant be used as an example of how rets were bad either. we didn't get any of our buffs until AFTER a majority of top guilds already cleared the content so saying X didn't use a paladin for all of these fights don't matter cause we WERE bad, now we are alright, and getting BETTER on the ptr.

    also, man everyone needs to stop taking everything so serious. its one thing to joke around but everyone needs to stop acting so hurt about everything. lets all just play a nice board game, get mad at that then take it out on some normal BGer noobs instead of on each other on the forums

  13. #3813
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    Largely what we have here is low and high end players having a pissing contest. If you are new to hardcore/Semi-hardcore raiding and largely inexperienced at First month / week zone clears Nelda is trying to point out. Anyhow again. We need to wait until we actually see itemization. Currently we wouldn't touch CDR trinket if the crit trinket stays broken like this because it is too powerful linked with the Stats % trinket for the crtical damage % gains. Wait and see what happens in the first major boss itemization build. Chill

    A big thing to point out too is Top 1-10 world and top 10-100 World are a WHOLE different ballgame as far as raiding structure goes.
    Prior to feather and 4 set... Primarily feather. I felt so fucking useless in ToT. Now I pretty much feel like a god, before those items I felt like a wet noodle. Of course 15% SoL played a pretty huge part midtier.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-07-07 at 07:35 PM.

  14. #3814
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    oh, i forgot to mention this earlier about the CDR trinket. If you are using the Unbreakable Spirit talent and the CDR trinket, you don't get as much benefit out of the CDR trinket on things like Divine Shield and Divine Protection. so what you get is like a 20 second CD on DP and i believe a 2.1 minute something CD on bubble. (dont feel like doing math or going on the PTR to check, sorry) that being said though, a 50%ish cd on DP + the old prot 2 or 4 piece from t15 could be very strong. i'm not sure what this could all do with prot paladins next tier since i don't like to fiddle around with numbers TOO much. would seem like a problem people were suggesting about us using our old tier cause it was better or something along that line. we shall see.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Largely what we have here is low and high end players having a pissing contest. If you are largely in experienced at First month / week zone clears Nelda is trying to point out. Anyhow again. We need to wait until we actually see itemization. Currently we wouldn't touch CDR trinket if the crit trinket stays broken like this because it is too powerful linked with the Stats % trinket for the crtical damage % gains. Wait and see what happens in the first major boss itemization build. Chill
    exactly, we just need to wait out the storm of changes is all.

  15. #3815
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reghame View Post
    oh, i forgot to mention this earlier about the CDR trinket. If you are using the Unbreakable Spirit talent and the CDR trinket, you don't get as much benefit out of the CDR trinket on things like Divine Shield and Divine Protection. so what you get is like a 20 second CD on DP and i believe a 2.1 minute something CD on bubble. (dont feel like doing math or going on the PTR to check, sorry) that being said though, a 50%ish cd on DP + the old prot 2 or 4 piece from t15 could be very strong. i'm not sure what this could all do with prot paladins next tier since i don't like to fiddle around with numbers TOO much. would seem like a problem people were suggesting about us using our old tier cause it was better or something along that line. we shall see.

    - - - Updated - - -



    exactly, we just need to wait out the storm of changes is all.
    #1 this isn't a prot thread
    #2 Babble babble babble
    #3 this has already been said
    #4 Common sense

  16. #3816
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Footsz View Post
    The point charles made is a better one than you're trying to make. Literally all I've said is "we don't know all the encounters yet, we don't know how valuable the trinket is going to be yet, they could make encounters where we need the faster Devo aura cd" and you're going off on some tangent about how you think I don't know top end raiding or something. Its a pointless argument and I'm done responding to you if you're just going to make ad hominem and "i'm better than you" responses. Also for the record, I've been raiding top end or damn near since vanilla.
    That's totally fine. Main difference between our arguments is the concept of "top-end".

    @some posts above: Numbers Retribution currently delivers are real good. But what do you actually bring past those numbers? Did you ever ask yourself that? Both DK (mass-grip) utility and Warrior DbtS when tanks fall down make or break fights/kills (both unique and "irreplaceable" at that). Thats talking "cutting-edge" / "top-end". When the size of the hole you have to get is so narrow to make it, that if you twitch you get stuck. Numbers game is the game of the casual/not-so good guilds/players.

    PS: I have absolutely nothing against casual players. I quite enjoyed raiding MoP rather casually myself. What I do have a problem with is people who never ever seen real "top-end" say top1-5 world comming here pretending they have.
    Last edited by Neldarie; 2013-07-07 at 09:42 PM.
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  17. #3817
    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    Throwing a few FoLs doesn't make us non replaceable, neither does AM which is situational at most and only slightly better than smokebomb/AMS, AND holy and prot have it also.
    Rogues have great mobility, amazing switch/cleave capacity, which we don't. Dk have the Mass-grip, Mass-snare which are amazing in every fight with adds sensible to CCs, better switching/cleave capacity and their DPS is less hurt by movement thanks to their pet, Death coil, strong diseases and such.

    Even in terms of personal defensive CDs, cloak+feint+elusion+vanish are better and on shorter CDs than any of our CDs. AMS and death pact too., though IBF is shit for dps DKs.

    So yeah, in terms of raw damage, Ret is fine, but raw damage is rarely the key to kill a boss aside from patchwerk-style fights, which aren't many (maybe 1-2 per tier) and even then, we only dps as much, we are far from OP, and the amazing burst that used to characterize us is now only not bad, thanks to enhanced sham, assa rogues and others I surely forget..
    Besides that, DPS on your meters/logs depends on so many things to so many levels aside from how viable your class is. I would only cite raid composition, Rdps, strategy, your specific role in it... and I'm not being exhaustive.

    We are a viable choice for any semi-hardcore guild, but to compete at the highest level and catch those world first, it has yet to happen a Ret is absolutely better than any other melee. And no, it is not because of our damage done.

    The problem in this thread is most people seem to be too lazy to set the context in which they are telling things, and are monolithic on their point of view and act childish at first sight of debate.

    As for the ptr trinkets and set bonuses, I won't even get into this because fighting like mad dogs and being as absolute as we can read here about things that are WiP is just pointless, unless you are talking conditionnal at all time, provide extensive testing and are actively participating in official sticky blue post and twitter to try and make things better.

    Oh, and I love ret, it has never been so fun since our broken time in ICC and I don't care if don't play the most OP class/role combo. I just play it because it is viable in my progress context without me slowing back my guild, and because I love it.
    Did I say I love ret ? Here, Ret is fun, Ret is cool.

    I was just going to post something like this, the only reason you would not bring a ret is because you are trying to get world first or perhaps server first, sorry, raiding with good competent people is more important to me and my guildies, so long as you are competent at your class you can clear all content in this game, short of perhaps some broken encounters.

    Before some of the top end rets go off on this post try and remember that when you are hosting a thread like this and commenting on it you are trying to help all rets, not just the 1% who are going for world firsts.

  18. #3818
    You guys seem to forget bubbletaunt swag. $$
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  19. #3819
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy8 View Post
    I was just going to post something like this, the only reason you would not bring a ret is because you are trying to get world first or perhaps server first, sorry, raiding with good competent people is more important to me and my guildies, so long as you are competent at your class you can clear all content in this game, short of perhaps some broken encounters.

    Before some of the top end rets go off on this post try and remember that when you are hosting a thread like this and commenting on it you are trying to help all rets, not just the 1% who are going for world firsts.
    Exactly what that guy posted that you quoted. And thats why it is also important to break thick ice of bias for those casual/semi-hardcore players who never experienced the 1%, thats if you wanna see Ret from all angles that is.
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  20. #3820
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    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    #1 this isn't a prot thread
    #2 Babble babble babble
    #3 this has already been said
    #4 Common sense

    #1 i just mentioned it for prot, the entire post was not pointed toward them. its still a very interesting to take account for with talent choices and trinket choice in the future.
    #2 Babble babble babble
    #3 if it was already said, its not needed to say that it has been already said, its a DAMN LARGE thread, things can be missed and im trying to post useful information on what i can occasionally test.
    #4 i can be a douche too, so ill just quote you and say one word. "chill"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    Exactly what that guy posted that you quoted. And thats why it is also important to break thick ice of bias for those casual/semi-hardcore players who never experienced the 1%, thats if you wanna see Ret from all angles that is.
    yes, it would seem the stigma for us this expansion has been that we were trash for all encounters all the time because someone in a high end guild said they didn't use them for some reason or another. currently we are more than ok and next patch is looking like just flat out buffs. minor or not its still something to take into consideration.

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