1. #4681
    High Overlord Zardox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Yes because timeless trinket overpowers feather and ret should be benched in 25 mans. Anymore useful insight today Zardox?
    I like that he mathed it out unlike alot of other people here. Even if it is wrong what he is saying you should treat him respectfully.

  2. #4682
    Quote Originally Posted by Zardox View Post
    I like that he mathed it out unlike alot of other people here. Even if it is wrong what he is saying you should treat him respectfully.
    Yeah I liked this post of his too
    Yeah I actually meant they could be replaced by Holy or Prot too, but if you don't bring them, it could be smart to bring a Ret. I don't know how good we are, if we're topping isn't it merely because you're spinning meters or more or less tunnelling one guy from start till finnish while ranged take care of adds?
    Quote Originally Posted by Feliclandelo View Post
    I wouldn't bring a Ret ever, if I was to min/max my setup. I'd bring a Protection Paladin, and probably 1 Holy Paladin (unless it was 10man, then I'd bring a Ret/Prot and not a Holy).

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/
    SO INFORMATIVE! About the fact that he clearly states he actually has no idea.
    I get the impression this guy doesn't even main a ret. And maybe a slight bit a bias towards it?

    See you in November Zardox. Thats about how infrequent your "contributions" are yes?
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-10-01 at 04:04 PM.
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    getting banned from mmoc is like being let out of your jail cell when your sentence is over.

  3. #4683
    High Overlord Zardox's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with admitting you're not sure of something, rather do that than not be sure and not stating it, leading people to think that you are sure. Do I dare say asking questions is never a bad thing? It's a shame that a new poster got nuked with hate after just 15 posts.

    Also not sure why it bothers you that I don't post often, seems a bit silly to me.

  4. #4684
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
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    It's not "nuked with hate", it's trying to stop the spread of misinformation, like the idea that the timeless trinket isn't worse than anything with a strength proc. Haste procs have been bad relative to strength procs since the start of the expansion with DMV. The reason for the quick attempts to quash such misinformation is that there have always been and always will be people who will believe it, which only hinders them. If a theoretical (or an actual) person is trying to better themselves, but come here and replace a feather with the timeless trinket because he said so, that's only a detriment to them.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with some debate over ideas, because that's how the best ideas rise up over the less accurate and less helpful ones, but the feather debate isn't really much of a debate anymore. We've known how strong it is compared to all the other ToT trinkets (that is, stronger than all of them all of the time, within relative ilvls) since ToT came out. The timeless trinket might be new this patch, but the type of trinket isn't, and we've known how much relatively worse than other trinkets haste procs are since the expansion came out.

  5. #4685
    High Overlord Zardox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredzilla View Post
    It's not "nuked with hate", it's trying to stop the spread of misinformation, like the idea that the timeless trinket isn't worse than anything with a strength proc. Haste procs have been bad relative to strength procs since the start of the expansion with DMV. The reason for the quick attempts to quash such misinformation is that there have always been and always will be people who will believe it, which only hinders them. If a theoretical (or an actual) person is trying to better themselves, but come here and replace a feather with the timeless trinket because he said so, that's only a detriment to them.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with some debate over ideas, because that's how the best ideas rise up over the less accurate and less helpful ones, but the feather debate isn't really much of a debate anymore. We've known how strong it is compared to all the other ToT trinkets (that is, stronger than all of them all of the time, within relative ilvls) since ToT came out. The timeless trinket might be new this patch, but the type of trinket isn't, and we've known how much relatively worse than other trinkets haste procs are since the expansion came out.
    He's the only person I've seen in a while that's done any sort of math on it. I'd rather not go into the discussion, about whether or not math is the only right way to prove things, since it will probably just get me infracted (again). However, for the people who do agree with that, it's not misinformation.

    Something Myself, Solsacra, and our little Scrubuster ret friend would say is: You have no clue. Do not pass go. Do not collect 2handed weapons.
    This is what I mean by hate.

  6. #4686
    This thread needs more math. Not just Anaxie and Solsacra meter padding.

  7. #4687
    Well only good thing in this thread is you do get some decent info once every 5 pages or so, and yes more math now and then would be helpful,
    Last edited by rinzshady; 2013-10-01 at 05:00 PM. Reason: '

  8. #4688
    Warchief Thete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charleslol View Post
    This thread needs more math. Not just Anaxie and Solsacra meter padding.
    gnome + survives fight = fail

    The only maths you'll ever need.
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  9. #4689
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardox View Post
    He's the only person I've seen in a while that's done any sort of math on it. I'd rather not go into the discussion, about whether or not math is the only right way to prove things, since it will probably just get me infracted (again). However, for the people who do agree with that, it's not misinformation.
    And as I pointed out after he did his math, he didn't go about it the right way (if I learned anything from the old t14 trinket thread, and the math that did actually happen for things in this thread that no one cares to go look at just because you might have to search for a key word). I don't know nearly everything about theorycrafting, or all of the math behind it all, but I do know that he was comparing them in the wrong ways. You don't add up the benefit of each second of the proc to determine it's strength, you average it, you average the proc's benefit over a minute, or over 5, or 10, or however long you want to. Beyond that, he did 0 math for the real strength of feather, which is the end of the proc for ES snapshotting and the like and the fact that it's up on pull. Those are big things which were completely ignored in his math.

    Just because you see some math, doesn't mean it's right or applicable. There are people in this thread who have done the math before, and have gotten it right to everyone's knowledge at the time. Since I'm no grade-school math teacher, I'll take their word on the subject without seeing all their work, since I know they know how to do it. Call me crazy, but the results haven't lied to me yet, and I doubt they'll start now.

  10. #4690
    I find it interesting how people come to a post named for Anaxie then trash him for what he designs to put in it. Start your own thread and have at your math? You don't have to post here. It's a free forum. Make a post named "Superduper Page O'Math!" and have a good day.

  11. #4691
    Tanyn: There's no point flooding the forum with new threads. This is more or less a thread for everything related to Retribution Paladins. People are just not always as welcoming because they think they know it all.

    Anaxie: You seem to not really understand what is going on. I'm not a hardcore raider anymore, I'm 25 years of age and I am spending time studying the last 2 years of my masters degree. I've raided since the game came out, did Naxx40 13/13 as a top20 guild, got Kil'Jaeden down before 3.0 hit and I played in Envy for a while during WotLK. I stopped raiding hardcore after we managed to clean up the first heroics in Catalclysm, and decided to take a more casual approach, getting around 70% of content down on HC before next tier was released.

    I used to be a lot like you. I was in a top tier guild, my ego was larger half the server together (at that time I was doing PvP tournaments such as Dreamhack, ESL and doing rank 1 Gladiator boosts, which only "proved" my ego more right) and I felt like I was the best. I even held a few top10 rankings on WoL quite some time as Holy. The difference is I eventually grew up, and realised I can play this game just fine with friends and still be one of the better players. The only difference is I treat other people with respect and I value math/data more than my own experiences, since they can be wrong.

    I can't tell how old you are, but you act like you just hit puberty. You want to "mold people into being a top5 ret worldwide" yet you're ranking around 55-60 on WoL? Surely it can't be a gear issue, since you're in a top dollar PvE guild. You even trashtalked the other Paladin that was ranked 13th worldwide and you trashtalk the Paladin from Method. Is this solely because they are performing better? Even went as far as to call EJ/Exemplar for trash, when they are probably the only ones making this possible working together with our good friend Theck (keeping the Simcraft for Ret up to date).

    Basicly all I am doing is trying to bring some numbers and math into this thread, and perhaps you should try to take a chillpill and think about the way you post. If you disagree with me that is absolutly fine, but please do so in a constructive manner and show me how I am wrong instead of going "you're wrong you're bad". This isn't the 3rd grade anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anyway I'm not here to start a fight or argument, I just don't like when people blindly follow someone or contradicts you without any form of explanation.

  12. #4692
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Just do what I do, unless I know a poster or his signature has some sort of credible information (say high ranked guild) I flat out ignore them. I'm not saying I'm "pro" but I got a few years of experience and I communicate with a lot of rets in EU and a few in the US of A. This is the internet, be careful about what info you find and use. I never go to raids for instance with a new stat or rotation build, I sim them and then go to LFR to see a comat relevant situation of the build. I also use what I have of experience.
    I think the work of Anaxie (and some other rets in good guilds) in this thread is excellent, but regardless of that, I think we should be more receptive. Saying we shouldn't give credibility to those who post here because they aren't in high ranked guilds is excessive, and the "you should believe me cause I communicate with X" doesn't help. Especially because the knowledge of a player doesn't have to be determined by the other players of his roster (except when you are talking about heroics).

    This doesn't mean I agree Feliclandelo's theory about trinkets or stats, anyways.

  13. #4693
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feliclandelo View Post
    Tanyn: There's no point flooding the forum with new threads. This is more or less a thread for everything related to Retribution Paladins. People are just not always as welcoming because they think they know it all.

    Anaxie: You seem to not really understand what is going on. I'm not a hardcore raider anymore, I'm 25 years of age and I am spending time studying the last 2 years of my masters degree. I've raided since the game came out, did Naxx40 13/13 as a top20 guild, got Kil'Jaeden down before 3.0 hit and I played in Envy for a while during WotLK. I stopped raiding hardcore after we managed to clean up the first heroics in Catalclysm, and decided to take a more casual approach, getting around 70% of content down on HC before next tier was released.

    I used to be a lot like you. I was in a top tier guild, my ego was larger half the server together (at that time I was doing PvP tournaments such as Dreamhack, ESL and doing rank 1 Gladiator boosts, which only "proved" my ego more right) and I felt like I was the best. I even held a few top10 rankings on WoL quite some time as Holy. The difference is I eventually grew up, and realised I can play this game just fine with friends and still be one of the better players. The only difference is I treat other people with respect and I value math/data more than my own experiences, since they can be wrong.

    I can't tell how old you are, but you act like you just hit puberty. You want to "mold people into being a top5 ret worldwide" yet you're ranking around 55-60 on WoL? Surely it can't be a gear issue, since you're in a top dollar PvE guild. You even trashtalked the other Paladin that was ranked 13th worldwide and you trashtalk the Paladin from Method. Is this solely because they are performing better? Even went as far as to call EJ/Exemplar for trash, when they are probably the only ones making this possible working together with our good friend Theck (keeping the Simcraft for Ret up to date).

    Basicly all I am doing is trying to bring some numbers and math into this thread, and perhaps you should try to take a chillpill and think about the way you post. If you disagree with me that is absolutly fine, but please do so in a constructive manner and show me how I am wrong instead of going "you're wrong you're bad". This isn't the 3rd grade anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anyway I'm not here to start a fight or argument, I just don't like when people blindly follow someone or contradicts you without any form of explanation.
    If you're not here to start a fight or argue, you shouldn't make posts like this. Really, you shouldn't make posts like this at all. As far as you bringing math and numbers into this thread, I've already pointed out your approach to the math is flawed, and that there are in fact numbers in this thread for some of the recent questions (such as feather vs spark), you just have to spend a little time and search for them, since the pages go by quick here. They do have a search function for that kind of thing.

  14. #4694
    But Fredzilla why don't you point out where I am wrong? Instead of saying "somewhere someone said X". That piece of information is not very helpful to me. Also where did my math go wrong? As far as I know, you even questioned things I already explained like how much str it gives you over the course of a minute, just as an example. Was I wrong about that too?

    It is very confusing when people try to explain you're not right, without actually linking or describing anything. You're just claiming I am wrong, and then you want me to go find out where I am wrong. Not sure how far this would get you in real life.

    Atleast according to my math, and the Simcraft Feather, with regemming, is perhaps few hundred DPS ahead of Zandalar if all the hit is in excess. So I don't know what you're still on about.

  15. #4695
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredzilla View Post
    I don't know nearly everything about theorycrafting, or all of the math behind it all, but I do know that he was comparing them in the wrong ways. You don't add up the benefit of each second of the proc to determine it's strength, you average it, you average the proc's benefit over a minute, or over 5, or 10, or however long you want to. Beyond that, he did 0 math for the real strength of feather, which is the end of the proc for ES snapshotting and the like and the fact that it's up on pull. Those are big things which were completely ignored in his math.
    It was only confusing because you didn't read my other post apparently.

  16. #4696
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanyn View Post
    I will repost this since it seems to be an issue every page or two.

    I got some information gathered up today when I was posting some Retribution stuff on our guild website. I will just throw down the information and if Anaxie wants to use it for the OP then feel free. This is assuming we stick with the 40% Haste area as our breakpoint.

    Gemming for the Expertise/Haste caps 7.5% / 40%.

    Under 17,000 Haste and below Expertise cap: Exp/Haste gems. Reforge all Expertise to Mastery.
    Under 17,000 Haste and AT the Expertise cap: Str/Haste gems.
    At 17,000 Haste and below Expertise cap: Exp/Mastery gems. Reforge all Expertise to Mastery.
    At 17,000 Haste and AT the Expertise cap: Str/Mastery gems.

    Thok's Trinket and how it affects your Haste Rating needed for 40%: (Thank Healiocentric for the nice image.)



    LFR(2/2): 5.9754% | 17000 / 1.059754 = 16041 Haste Rating
    Flex(2/2): 6.6823% | 17000 / 1.066823 = 15935 Haste Rating
    Normal(2/2): 7.5427% | 17000 / 1.075427 = 15808 Haste Rating
    WF-Normal(2/2): 7.9764% | 17000 / 1.079764 = 15744 Haste Rating
    Heroic(2/2): 8.514% | 17000 / 1.08514 = 15666 Haste Rating
    WF-Heroic(2/2): 9.0035 | 17000 / 1.090035 = 15596 Haste Rating

    - - - Updated - - -

    The reforging is obviously just for red slots. Not yellows or blues. So, please don't make a comment that says that we can gem for straight Mastery or Haste. Of course we can, but not in Red Sockets if you want the bonus.

    The reason this works is that you want to eliminate as much Expertise on your gear as you can. So, you can effectively pick up more Mastery instead. More Mastery/Haste gear instead of Expertise/Haste or Expertise/Mastery. This works this way because they budget secondary stats on gems 2x over primary stats. IE, 320 Expertise over 160 Str.

    The 17000 Haste is a roundabout number. It's not like you have to be at or over 17000. I just threw out the other numbers for the trinket at the request of another guildie.

    That table pretty much covers any information I wanted to get. Never seen it before so please, don't take me for some kind of fool or troll.
    The reason I was asking was, because I simply didn't know why some did exp / haste, some Str/ haste, and some even did a mixture of both
    and I was confused. I never wanted to start some kind of fight like what is going on here now.

  17. #4697
    Could we please play on the ball instead of on the person? I know it's easier to attack another person than to attack his ideas, but I don't want to see one of the few good (and accessible) ret paladin sources locked because a few posters without ill intent decided they wanted to flame each other.

    Feliclandelo: your math is wrong. 7K STR for 10 seconds every 60 seconds is NOT 70K STR per minute. That's like saying: my car has 300 extra horsepower for 10 seconds when I press my turbo button which needs 1 minute to recharge, so it gets 3K horsepower per minute. no, it gives 300 horsepower with a 1/6 uptime, or 50 horsepower. Spark gives a flat 7330 STR for 10 seconds every 60 seconds (simplyfied, but that's about right). averaging that gives 7330/6 STR, or 1221 STR on average. In addition, you'll have 0% chance to have this active on every pull, or even during BL if you BL on pull, because on average it takes 54s to stack to 10.

    feather: a linear increase to 10 stacks over 10 seconds. first of all, the tooltip seems to be bugged and the normal trinket actually give a 1.6K buff instead of a 1.3K STR buff. I haven't got a normal version myself to test this so I cannot confirm this. secondly, due to RPPM mechanics, this trinket will nearly always be up during pull, unless you use the trinket swap technique to delay the proc. this means that on any fight where you open with your CDs, this trinket will reach 10 stacks at around the same time as Guardian reaches 12 stacks, and during the same period as your AW will be up. You also have a decent chance your dancing steel is active, and that crit banner is active. these are all effects which are unlikely to be active at 54 seconds after pull.

    because ES takes a snapshot of our SP (for nearly 600% of it), this is huge. my personal math on this matter suggests that ES does 6% on tick 1, and then increasing by a fraction of a % each second, with the final tick doing 55%. just raidbuffed, the first tick is 8K, for a total of 120K damage. with all procs and without gimmick buffs, ES has gone up to 25-30K for me. that means that the full ES does 375-400K damage. that's over triple the normal damage. THAT's the real power of feather: you can line up your better scaling attacks with the final few stacks, and those attacks will do far more damage than is needed to counteract the lower initial STR you gain.
    Currently only reading the Funny Pictures Megathread because the rest of the forums is filled with piss, whiners and pissed whiners.

  18. #4698
    Nzall if you read my post again, I do account for uptime? I could break it down to average per second, but I break it down to average per minute. Where's the difference? Your point is exactly what I did? I took the RPPM into consideration. I also mentioned that Feather will be up on pull almost everytime, which lines up with ES perfectly, but it will only happen once, which really does not make a huge impact over the course of 6 minutes (go simulate it with Simcraft, there is basicly no DPS difference with the 2 trinkets, if the hit is not utilized on the Feather).

    So I agree and I understand perfectly what you're saying, but that 1 ES will hardly make a difference. As I said, the sims I ran where I was over hitcap when equipping Feather, and I simulated a full regem of hit/haste gems into pure haste and what not, to gain a bit of extra dps showed that Feather would yield around 400dps more for me. So don't say I didn't mention or describe it. Go check the posts I made after. I felt no difference on live either when swapping the trinkets around (still being over hitcap).

    What Spark doesn't do for the first ES, it makes up for the extra 2000'ish dps it has from the additional passive haste over a reforged Feather. Take that into consideration too!

    "Fabled Feather of Ji-kun provdes a stacking 1333 strength each second for 10 seconds. This gives a total gain of 73315 strength over the cource of 10 seconds 1333 + ((1333*2) + (1333*3) ....... + (1333*10)) = 73315. This trinket has a RPPM of 1.21 (slightly ahead of Spark of Zandalar) and ends up giving you 88711,15 strength over the course of one minute. "

    88711 / 60 (in seconds vs. minutes. The unit doesn't matter, as long as you describe it which I did.) = 1478 str on average (in your numbers).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredzilla View Post
    It was only confusing because you didn't read my other post apparently.
    If you are refering to a response you made to me, I have described that scenario about lining it up with ES for the first proc. I also again, did EXACTLY what people are saying I "forgot" as averaging the gain over the course of a minute (or seconds as just done above). Again, I have to emphasize. Feather <--> Spark, doesn't matter if you're way over hitcap. For min maxing, Feather and regemming (atleast for my gear, even though I have both the trinkets from SoO now). Whichever is higher iLvl should be used.

    You guys jump the gun so fast. If the math is wrong, tell me! But make sure you check my posts properly!
    Last edited by Feliclandelo; 2013-10-01 at 11:09 PM.

  19. #4699
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
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    You in fact did not average anything of the course of anything. Neither trinket will give you anywhere remotely near (and I quote your math) "81396,3 strength provided per minute" or "88711,15 strength over the course of one minute." No trinket in the game at this point gets even halfway there. It's literally impossible for the average over the course of a duration longer than the proc itself to be higher than any individual instance of the proc. An average is always less than the highest point (if it varies like feather), and is further reduced (over the course of a minute) by all of the time it is not up. What nzall said is right as far as the average strength from each proc per minute.

    Beyond that, though, you cannot possibly say your math is right when you leave out key components of what makes the (feather) proc so strong, which, as I and nzall and countless other people throughout this entire thread have said, is being able to 1. Snapshot ES with the vastly higher strength gain from the end of the proc, and 2. Having the proc up on the pull with all CDs (and hero for applicable fights). What you imply in your math is neither of those 2 points make any noticeable difference whatsoever in the trinkets' relative strengths, which is some of the worst misinformation I've seen in awhile since we have always heavily relied on our CDs, which are only inflated when lined up with trinket procs.

    Neither of us are jumping any guns. We said your math was wrong and told you why. You chose to ignore us and stubbornly assert you weren't wrong because you chose not to listen to what we said. Feather and spark are not interchangeable, no matter how much hit you have. Except from extreme cases (LFR feather vs H TF spark maybe), feather will always win.

    Edit: You also cannot possibly assume you will only snapshot ES with the first feather proc. I can guarantee it can and will happen more than once throughout a fight/night, which further increases its strength.

    EditEdit: You also cannot even think about mentioning the concept of min/maxing and say they are interchangeable when you even said yourself feather was still better in the sims you did. That would be the complete opposite of min/maxing.
    Last edited by Fredzilla; 2013-10-01 at 11:44 PM. Reason: Jackpot # post

  20. #4700
    High Overlord Zeranox's Avatar
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    Finally got my 4-set today so I'm very curious how it will turn out for tomorrow's raid but I have a question though.

    I've been looking at Anaxie's and Ask Mr robot. What concern me with Mr robot is that it says the crit trinket is BiS rather than the amp trinket which I don't really understand. The amp. trinket seems way stronger.

    Is it a close competitor to the amp. trinket or how is it?

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