Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[shynoz]

Always keep 4 set

even if with the 4 set im at 38% haste and 54% mastery and if i drop 2 pieces from set and switch them with 2 heroic WF off pieces i get to 41% haste and 56% mastery ??

[Monoroth]

Getting extra 3% haste and 2% mastery is almost nothing compared to 4 set. Keep the 4 set. Any fight that has 1 extra mob on which you can use DS will just increase value of 4 set, more then 3% haste and 2% mastery can do.

[shynoz]

Getting extra 3% haste and 2% mastery is almost nothing compared to 4 set. Keep the 4 set. Any fight that has 1 extra mob on which you can use DS will just increase value of 4 set, more then 3% haste and 2% mastery can do.

ohh i see so the way to go is go normal 4set then switch at heroic 4 set only.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Part of the reason why 4set is so good is that it allows us to drop quite a lot of haste, without current 4set you'd go for 50% haste but because we have a relatively big chance to get a free holy power finisher (even if it's DS) the proc will most of the time fill in the "blanks" you would notice before. Note this is just part of the reason why 4set is so good... Another reason why 4set is so good is that it's 1 more attack for us that triggers Hand of Light, which buffs mastery.

I also thought about ditching 4set on single target fights but it's not worth it when you have to find all the haste somewhere, I've done it with full haste gems and 578 ilvl (going for 50% haste that is) but I didn't find it better and numbers were a lot lower than they were with mastery build. Only (and I mean only) way I'd even consider to go without 4set is if the 2 items you replaced gave you 10% more haste (from 40% with 4set to 50% with the 2 higher ilvl items) and there's no way in hell that should be possible

[Meiffert]

Part of the reason why 4set is so good is that it allows us to drop quite a lot of haste, without current 4set you'd go for 50% haste but because we have a relatively big chance to get a free holy power finisher (even if it's DS) the proc will most of the time fill in the "blanks" you would notice before.

I don't understand your reasoning at all.
Sure, the 4set fills those empty GCDs we would have without it. But where does haste come into play here?

With my 4set, the stat values are: haste 5.41, mastery 5.39.
If I disable the 4set, they are: haste 4.72, mastery 4.78.

The relative value of haste and mastery stayed pretty much the same withing the error of the simulation.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

More spells to fill blanks = lowers value of haste and increases value of mastery.
Don't really see what you find so confusing, if you didn't have 4set you'd want more haste because you wouldn't have that extra ability to fill inn blank spots.

[Meiffert]

Why? Makes no sense to me at all.

Edit: seems to me that you think that haste somehow miraculously fills your GCDs or something.
Haste decreases our GCD (from 1.5 sec down to 1 sec at 50 %), which creates more GCDs to fill. At the same time it decreases the cooldown on most of our core abilities (because of Sanctity of Battle) by the exact same ratio.
That means that if 10 % of your GCDs are empty at 0 haste, at 50 % haste you will still have 10 % empty GCDs. The only difference is that for example 20 GCDs (and 2 of them empty) would take 30 seconds to perform without haste, with 50 % haste it will take you 20 seconds.
Haste would indeed fill some empty GCDs if we were over 50 % (because at that time we don't get extra GCDs any more, they stay at 1 second, but our ability cooldowns would still be lowered further). That is largely irrelevant though as the value of haste over 50 % is very low.

[shynoz]

More spells to fill blanks = lowers value of haste and increases value of mastery.
Don't really see what you find so confusing, if you didn't have 4set you'd want more haste because you wouldn't have that extra ability to fill inn blank spots.

ohh it makes sense , no blank spots equals more steady dps cause that DS proc will hit harder than the usual ds plus it procs naked ladies.. i mean Mastery! it procs mastery!

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

If that doesn't make sense to you then I suggest trying to play with 17k haste without 4set for a while and feel how clunky it gets compared to when you have 4set and 17k haste. You can go 18k haste or even 19k haste, it'll make your rotation even better but it doesn't beat the value of mastery when so many of your attacks (with 4set) triggers HoL.
*edit*
No Meiffert, 4set fills our GCDs and while sanctity of battle reduces the cd on our rotational abilities at the "same rate" as it reduces our GCD to fit a faster pace in our rotation every time you get a 4set proc you basically gain 1.x seconds (your gcd) of time for your CS/Judgement/Exorcism/ES to be ready again. Sure you could go to 50% haste but as discussed 100 pages ago with the increased number of mastery triggering abilities the value of mastery vs haste levels out (or goes in favor of mastery depending on who you talk to) not to forget that crit also sneaks up as a contender for stat prio (also depending on who you talk to)
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ohh it makes sense , no blank spots equals more steady dps cause that DS proc will hit harder than the usual ds plus it procs naked ladies.. i mean Mastery! it procs mastery!

Not sure if you're trying to be a smartass or not :P

[shynoz]

If that doesn't make sense to you then I suggest trying to play with 17k haste without 4set for a while and feel how clunky it gets compared to when you have 4set and 17k haste. You can go 18k haste or even 19k haste, it'll make your rotation even better but it doesn't beat the value of mastery when so many of your attacks (with 4set) triggers HoL.
*edit*
No Meiffert, 4set fills our GCDs and while sanctity of battle reduces the cd on our rotational abilities at the "same rate" as it reduces our GCD to fit a faster pace in our rotation every time you get a 4set proc you basically gain 1.x seconds (your gcd) of time for your CS/Judgement/Exorcism/ES to be ready again. Sure you could go to 50% haste but as discussed 100 pages ago with the increased number of mastery triggering abilities the value of mastery vs haste levels out (or goes in favor of mastery depending on who you talk to) not to forget that crit also sneaks up as a contender for stat prio (also depending on who you talk to)
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Not sure if you're trying to be a smartass or not :P

lol no smartass i swear! ah actually i find the sense on it since i was thinking that droping my 4set and replacing two H WF offset pieces to reach 40%+ haste was better than running with 38% haste with 4 set , but now that you made it clear to me i will go back to my 4set cause in AOE fights im a beast!! but i wasn't sure in single fights. Thanks!

[Meiffert]

Yeah, everything in your last post is true and makes sense. But that still doesn't explain why haste should be valued higher without having the 4set compared to with having it.

Without the 4set, there will be some empty GCDs, your rotation may be something like: CS - J - Exo - TV - CS - J - empty - CS - TV - J - CS - empty - Exo - etc.
With the 4set, many of those empty GCDs will be filled, which is way better: CS - J - Exo - TV - CS - J - DS - CS - DS - J - CS - TV - Exo - etc.

My point is that both of those sequences of abilities will stay exactly the same at 20k haste compared to 5k haste. The only difference will be the speed at which you press your buttons.

4set is great, it increases your damage by about 4 % as well as making the playstyle a lot more enjoyable especially for experienced players. You don't get stuck with just autoattacking nearly as often.

All of that still doesn't make haste sudenly a superior stat while missing the 4set. You said that having 4set allows us to drop a lot of haste and it could be viable to play without it if we had a good gear setup with 50 % haste. But there is no reason that haste should be stronger without the 4set.

These are real stat weights from my character (http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ffert/advanced) using SW.
With the 4set: haste 5.41, mastery 5.39.
4set disabled: haste 4.72, mastery 4.78.
Both stats are equally good with the 4set. Without it, they are still equally strong.

[Deleted]

Your officers are retarded

Well i may agree with at this point, spend the entire morning saying its not worth. so he did sims on and he still thinks its better and i still don't think it is, saying that crit is still as good as mastery and haste and the hit you can reforge, but i am losing 2 good stats for a belt that doesn't have my best stats on. i feel i putting too my effort in for a 6/14 hc guild
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...olymind/simple

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

If you don't have 4set and stick to 17k haste you'll have a lot less mastery abilities per minute (DS/TV etc), the solution to increase your number of mastery abilities per minute is to increase your haste. Now you could do the exact same thing with 4set (going way above 17k haste) but because you already are hitting mostly mastery abilities the value of mastery rating increases at a higher rate than haste rating (again, depending on which ret you're talking to). I tried going 50% haste with 4set for a full reset, while I did get more mastery triggering abilities out they hit for less. Not by a lot mind you but enough to make me not wanting to go there, there might be a "better" spot for "you" (meaning anyone or nobody) at 19k haste or 18.333 haste but that's down to preference because the difference in actual numbers is less than 1-2k dps. (according to what I've simmed my char at)

Again we're talking about minimal numbers, a lot of the time it would come down to preference but if I didn't have 4set I'd more or less try to go for the 50% haste mark (or there about).

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Well i may agree with at this point, spend the entire morning saying its not worth. so he did sims on and he still thinks its better and i still don't think it is, saying that crit is still as good as mastery and haste and the hit you can reforge, but i am losing 2 good stats for a belt that doesn't have my best stats on. i feel i putting too my effort in for a 6/14 hc guild
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...olymind/simple

Again, if your officers don't trust their raiders to do what's expected from them then they need new raiders and you should find a guild that has officers that trust their raiders to do their job. Not negative to you (or your officers) but conflict between the management in a guild and the average raider is never good, it's just going to fester and drive you (or them) down.

[Weightlifter]

Now I feel stupid for taking Asgorathian Blood Seal and replacing my old Sorrowpath Signet. It forced me to use str+mastery gems in orange sockets instead of exp+mastery, and now I'm almost 0,5% over both caps.

Bloodclaw Band would have been the best alternative but it never drops.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

You'd solve your hit/exp "problem" with the polearm from Thok.

[Weightlifter]

You'd solve your hit/exp "problem" with the polearm from Thok.

Nope. Putting a yellow gem on it would leave me slightly undercapped.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Yes but you could change your cloak enchant from 180 crit to 180 hit.
Also you could get the hit ring instead of the crit one and then use crit+mastery bracers from third boss :P
Lot's of options to nail the hit and exp perfectly, well close anyways. I'm Draenei so I'm going to be roughly 0.3% over no matter what I do unless I skip socket bonuses.

[Weightlifter]

Losing 160 hit and gaining 180 would make me even more overcapped. Because gems are 160 rating which is ~0,5%, it means that I will be either 0,1% under or 0,4% over.

Also, anything that involves getting new loot is out of question. Firstly, we will be extending our lockout until Garrosh is down, and secondly, there are other people who still need those items.

[Maegor]

You have the following scenarios with gearing:
1) 4pc normal at 40% haste - baseline
2) 4pc normal at 50% haste - sims a hair higher, although sims are single target, and most heroic fights have an add somewhere, plus any latency or rotational error makes option 1 actually better
3) heroic pieces in lieu of 4pc at 40% haste - mastery is probably at same level of option 1, str is higher, however you get less finishing moves (free ds/tv). Since free ds/tv are where we really hit hard, if you see less of those, then you will need quite a bit of str to make up the difference. Also, without free ds taking up the occasional spot in the rotation, you wait on hp generators instead of using the free ds
4) heroic pieces in lieu of 4pc at 50% haste - a mix of options 2 and 3 for the negatives. A rotational issue can really mess up your timing, and you need enough str to make up the difference on your abilities to losing the free ds damage, plus any time there is an add you are losing dps (which may be meter whoring to an extent, unless it is your job to help with the adds)

If the free ds wasn't +150% damage, then going with the highest ilvl pieces probably makes sense. But since a free ds hits about like a tv, then on single target fights, you are actually picking up free tv's, which as stated, is where our oomph is for damage.

[Vintersol]

Nope. Putting a yellow gem on it would leave me slightly undercapped.

It's not a problem if you are some points under the cap. In my current setup i have 7,39% expertise and 7,49% hit. If i manage to come to both caps, it results in a slight dps decrease. But this is related to the current gear comp.