1. #1361
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    First top 20 guilds will likely be all trolls rolling a horde comp so ret is out by default for factors not even related to class balance. Secondly if ret survived T11 which was a worse situation then we are in right now i doubt the class is going anywhere. You are making mountains out of molehills at this point huntingbear.

    as a small note being a paladin since TBC vs being a paladin since naxx who STARTED ret in T11 midtier is a far different scenario. You see to deal with the classes shortcomings in BC and come out viable and to say the class is unviable and not raid viable now is nothing but an insult.

    PvE ret is in a far better place it has ever been. We only need a 5% or so sustained bump, some aoe love, and maybe a unique raid cd more iconic then the basic devotion aura. Auras are a staple of paladins and a mastery 10 second raid aura would be quite acceptable.

    Thats it. The class isn't even that far behind.

    And you are worried about some retarded hydra boss with some fixate and aoe zone mechanics. That shit is childs play and one of the most basic gameplay elements in raiding.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-02-19 at 03:18 PM.

  2. #1362
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Which is exactly why I mentioned any BIS list should be made around trinkets and armor set and the first HTF wpn u roll forced into the gearset.

    This tier, I'm not worried about the bosses. I'm worried about the cluster fuck 30+ item loot tables or Ra-dens 50+ items table + Thunderforge mechanic. And then the VP system will return midtier making any gearing options a regret filled nightmare. I won't be surprized if some players quit the game or guilds die because of this next tier.
    Sounds like the focus should be on figuring out stat priorities with what values you want to reach and when. Like strength's and haste's influence on mastery and crit as well as weapon damage I gues. If you don't think it will be as simple as stacking haste then focus on mastery. I don't know how Ret's SimCraft APL is and how much confidence you put in it, but it doesn't seem like the Ret community has relied on it so far. There has to be some math involved somewhere, though.

    I'm glad I've never cared much for loot. It's nice to get new items but I hate how important it is. I try not to focus too much on it except from being updated on what I need and why.



    Sticking to a class/spec out of pure stubbornness/pride seems like it would just harm you in the end. I hope you still enjoy the game and it's worth it. I'll probably always have a Ret alt because it's what I started playing with my first char but I'm never going to sacrifice being able to play on the level I want to play at just because my class isn't good enough for it.

  3. #1363
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Sounds like the focus should be on figuring out stat priorities with what values you want to reach and when. Like strength's and haste's influence on mastery and crit as well as weapon damage I gues. If you don't think it will be as simple as stacking haste then focus on mastery. I don't know how Ret's SimCraft APL is and how much confidence you put in it, but it doesn't seem like the Ret community has relied on it so far. There has to be some math involved somewhere, though.

    I'm glad I've never cared much for loot. It's nice to get new items but I hate how important it is. I try not to focus too much on it except from being updated on what I need and why.



    Sticking to a class/spec out of pure stubbornness/pride seems like it would just harm you in the end. I hope you still enjoy the game and it's worth it. I'll probably always have a Ret alt because it's what I started playing with my first char but I'm never going to sacrifice being able to play on the level I want to play at just because my class isn't good enough for it.
    How 2/4 pce T14 and T15 works and as long as haste has more of the GCD to reduce and we have 0 reason to crit <nevermind the often 10% crit rates with over 40% crit> the stat will always be dogshit. THe only reason crit was even considered in Cata was because Haste was just so fucking bad.

    Esentially shortly checking items. Our stat %s will ALMOST the exact same haste/mast/crit ratio we have now with the extra rating ilvls tacked on. Haste should jump an extra 3% solely based on the large amount of sockets we will be gaining. And as Neldarie mentioned ealier if haste is somehow not good for you you're weapon is likely just dogshit. Weapon scaling THOUSANDS of damage between tiers is laughable for what it does to strengths value. Both haste and mastery will continue to push against the rating as a result even into the final tier.

    Also, Bonk MY Ret is WoW to me. If I somehow lost my account to a random perma ban for some retarded reason. Or lost the paladin / unable to be recovered I would quit the game and never look back. I wouldn't even level a new paladin even if it was between expansions.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-02-19 at 03:32 PM.

  4. #1364
    Haha, I do envy your devotion to your character. I just keep coming back with new accounts/chars/classes...

    It seems crit is only good for specs that get some damage modification out of it. I have to say it's refreshing that haste has made such a strong comeback after how Ret was in Cata. So what you're saying for Ret T15 is basically keep stacking as much haste as you can possibly grab with gems etc then dump rest into mastery? I would also like to have some official view on using SimCraft as a guideline for stat weights. It really feels like the use of it has been avoided since MoP came out and I haven't really seen answer to why that is the case.

  5. #1365
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Simcraft is avoided because it was very poorly implemented for MoP. General concensus was the the developer was extemely inept and lacked credability in the class unlike Pbad who did it for Cataclysm. It's kinda like what EJ turned into in Cata/late wrath

    The developer being brand new to the class wouldn't listen to myself or Requital despite multiple attempts and problems pointed out while he posted how he was correct because he was the developer and we were wrong despite being proven correct and our longstanding history as pretty much 2 of the best rets in the world in the spec.

    ALSO:

    This ptr update has tons of raid craftables and new stuff we never saw incoming. Hopefully we get the bulk of the loot tables finished so a list can be hashed out.

    The fact there are like most armor slots avail from 5.2 crafting raid materials I'm curious. I'm also still waiting on the T2 and T3 version of Lionheart 5.2 craftables to get a tooltip so i can see if the damn thing is even competitive.

    Engineering lightning ingots have no CD on forge now tho on PTR. Stock up on living steel if u want to make a huge killing selling skyclaw mounts. Average prices of mats on AH now u could make a sky claw for under 10k. The widespread use of Ghost iron for... EVERYTHING next patch and the living steel being high demand again there should be a 300% markup easily.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-02-19 at 05:51 PM.

  6. #1366
    Don't worry, there is always that one guy who undercuts by like 80%..... So yea... <3 Malfurion.

  7. #1367
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    The fact there are like most armor slots avail from 5.2 crafting raid materials I'm curious. I'm also still waiting on the T2 and T3 version of Lionheart 5.2 craftables to get a tooltip so i can see if the damn thing is even competitive.
    The blacksmithing axe is a much, much, much better choice if it turns out that the third version is competitive. haste/mastery as secondary stats on the axe vs hit/exp on everything else. Remains to be seen if those will be changed though.

  8. #1368
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    The blacksmithing axe is a much, much, much better choice if it turns out that the third version is competitive. haste/mastery as secondary stats on the axe vs hit/exp on everything else. Remains to be seen if those will be changed though.
    I didn't look at nor care about stats. If the ilvl isnt 522 the weapons are worthless. Unless of course they are boe even in T3 form them i can make a few golds i suppose.

    The weapon SHOULD be atleast that or even 528 N:TF quality. I mean it is blacksmith only and it's not like getting 1 of 4 2handers from a raid is exactly hard.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 09:48 PM ----------

    Wowhead is claiming many of the items we don't see slotted on the loot table in my OP and the 2 BEST 2handers are bop trash drops and LFR failbag loot items YES! 522 item from lfr.

    What the fuck is this shit? Make TWO crit main raid heroic weapons and one has 1700 hit. what the actual fuck.

    If this is true hit forums in mass. Casters have TONS of options hunters have like 3, Dagger rogues? 3!

    we have what? 1700 hit sword off 3rd boss and crit axe of final boss. JOY

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 10:42 PM ----------

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...?page=122#2422
    PTR discussion thread

    I posted about the situation with weapons, have a look about 10 casters options, 5 rogue options, 3 hunter options and... 2 strength 2handers.
    Raise hell about this. We may not get the sustained we need even tho i make the simple suggestions in my post aswell. But we have got to make sure we have more then 2 2handed heroic options and maybe even get some goddamn loot ratings changed. We don't need 10+% hit. The situation with Ji-kuns trinket having 1700 may make ti completely unuseable by some classes just because of the terrible rating choice which easily could had been Mastery.

    Please post. Please bring up 2handed option concerns and the Hit itemization that needs removed on trinkets unless the intend for handed specs to just fall behind because of terrible design options.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 12:21 AM ----------

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3861?page=1#13

    The new PTR thread #3 they just put up.

    Please for the love of god.

    post about realistic sustained dps buffs.

    5% 2handed damage
    145-150% Crusader strike
    315% baseline TV
    20% mastery scaling bump
    Templar verdict stacking damage 1% X5 for 5% damage

    We don't need alot pick one or 2 of the above all are realistic buffs that could be implemented easily.

    Please post about the Missing 2handed weapons.

    Please post about the retarded amount of hit specifically the Malakk sword and the Ji-Kun feather. Maybe even the 1500 Expertise rep trinket.

    These things need attention and changed badly.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 12:38 AM ----------

    Fucking buffs 2 min baseline aw
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-02-19 at 09:50 PM.

  9. #1369
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    ---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 12:44 AM ----------

    not really sure what to make off it, guess it will be good with new 4 set, But just means we rely on our next tier's bonus's being better than other classes to just stay middle of the pack
    Last edited by rinzshady; 2013-02-20 at 12:47 AM.

  10. #1370
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rinzshady View Post
    ---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 12:44 AM ----------

    not really sure what to make off it, guess it will be good with new 4 set, But just means we rely on our next tier's bonus's being better than other classes to just stay middle of the pack
    Well SW is gonna stay best talent and between ultra tvs and hammer spam and of course the 2 set. Mastery is gonna be getting some good hot lovin. Atm I'm pushing GC for a 15% mastery rating scaling increase.

  11. #1371
    oh my god ghostcrawler actually came through for ret. I am stoked.

  12. #1372
    High Overlord Bombercloner's Avatar
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    I'm not following ret stuff as much as you other guys, but I am ret and making AW 2min baseline sounds amazing to me. Plus getting the buff to our seals while we still use the 4pc. I predict 2Pc t14 + 2Pc t15 will be better than 4pc tier14, but I am no expert. (not even close )

  13. #1373
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bombercloner View Post
    I'm not following ret stuff as much as you other guys, but I am ret and making AW 2min baseline sounds amazing to me. Plus getting the buff to our seals while we still use the 4pc. I predict 2Pc t14 + 2Pc t15 will be better than 4pc tier14, but I am no expert. (not even close )
    Yes it will be. Currenlty it was looking like 4set until 4 set would be way to go. Now well. WIth how op our 4 set is we should be #1 to swap since our current 4 set just got gutted. heh.

    Tell your raid leaders. Need mai conqu!

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 01:03 AM ----------

    However, in case it wasn't obvious, these were all single-target changes. We haven't completed AE, healing or tanking changes. Healing or tanking numbers look pretty solid overall though, so don't expect much change there. (And feel free to disagree, but please provide some kind of evidence to back it up.)
    Sounds like we may get a divine storm buff too. Cross them fingers.

  14. #1374
    We like our recent change to a lower cooldown on Avenging Wrath for Retribution in PvP. We like it so much that we want to make it a baseline change for Retribution and not a set bonus, since many PvE paladins are benefiting from shorter wings today, and our recent DPS testing suggests that Ret needs a DPS buff. However, this does mean changing the existing T14 4pc PvE bonus.

    So the list of changes reads like this:
    - Retribution has a two minute cooldown on Avenging Wrath baseline.
    - We are reverting the PvP set bonus change. The Retribution set bonuses remain as they are on live. This line will no longer appear in patch notes.
    - We are changing the T14 4pc PvE bonus to +10% damage on Seals and Judgment. We want you to graduate to the T15 set bonus fairly quickly and you won't be losing the shorter Avenging Wrath cooldown.
    yay! i knew i could count on blizz hehe

  15. #1375
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    no ptr threads up on EU yet so can't copy/paste yet, I'll do my part to be heard.
    9thorder.com | 14/14 Heroic 25-man | West 114 | Recruiting for Warlords of Draenor!

    Follow our raids on Twitch!Bear - Retribution PoV

  16. #1376
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Yes it will be. Currenlty it was looking like 4set until 4 set would be way to go. Now well. WIth how op our 4 set is we should be #1 to swap since our current 4 set just got gutted. heh.

    Tell your raid leaders. Need mai conqu!

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 01:03 AM ----------



    Sounds like we may get a divine storm buff too. Cross them fingers.
    I'm going to be testing those changes as soon as they come out. Do they have those raid buffing dummies anywhere on the PTR?

  17. #1377
    We're not seeing Ret DPS below where we want it on live, except on AE or cleave fights, which these changes aren't targeted to correct.
    Either that means our scaling is so good that the sheer increase of ilvl will put us on par with the other melees or we're supposed to be behind 5-10% behind warriors or dks.

  18. #1378
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    First top 20 guilds will likely be all trolls rolling a horde comp so ret is out by default for factors not even related to class balance. Secondly if ret survived T11 which was a worse situation then we are in right now i doubt the class is going anywhere. You are making mountains out of molehills at this point huntingbear.

    as a small note being a paladin since TBC vs being a paladin since naxx who STARTED ret in T11 midtier is a far different scenario. You see to deal with the classes shortcomings in BC and come out viable and to say the class is unviable and not raid viable now is nothing but an insult.

    PvE ret is in a far better place it has ever been. We only need a 5% or so sustained bump, some aoe love, and maybe a unique raid cd more iconic then the basic devotion aura. Auras are a staple of paladins and a mastery 10 second raid aura would be quite acceptable.

    Thats it. The class isn't even that far behind.

    And you are worried about some retarded hydra boss with some fixate and aoe zone mechanics. That shit is childs play and one of the most basic gameplay elements in raiding.
    I dont know what numbers you look at or is you use raidbot but from what i have personally experienced ret is farther behind than 5%. We had both our ret go holy because why gear a ret when you can gear a dk or warrior? I have heard this before but when i looked at that guilds logs their dps wasnt exactly the best and i havent seen any ret in the high rankings. I dont know maybe i am missing something.

    I am asking because we have two holy pallies who had been ret since tbc but their dps wasnt close to the other dps asking about going back to ret. I am more likely to let them leave from the dps i have seen on live and on PTR from ret pallies. We have the extra heals and they have been applying to other guilds but their isnt the interest in ret even at 510ivl. I am guessing if the numbers stay the same on the PTR, they will either stay holy or keep applying to guilds. Odd, that from what people say on here they are going to compete and i dont see it from the testing we have done normal and heroic on live and the PTR.
    Last edited by isadorr; 2013-02-20 at 02:45 AM.

  19. #1379
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    I dont know what numbers you look at or is you use raidbot but from what i have personally experienced ret is farther behind than 5%. We had both our ret go holy because why gear a ret when you can gear a dk or warrior? I have heard this before but when i looked at that guilds logs their dps wasnt exactly the best and i havent seen any ret in the high rankings. I dont know maybe i am missing something.

    I am asking because we have two holy pallies who had been ret since tbc but their dps wasnt close to the other dps asking about going back to ret. I am more likely to let them leave from the dps i have seen on live and on PTR from ret pallies. We have the extra heals and they have been applying to other guilds but their isnt the interest in ret even at 510ivl. I am guessing if the numbers stay the same on the PTR, they will either stay holy or keep applying to guilds. Odd, that from what people say on here they are going to compete and i dont see it from the testing we have done normal and heroic on live and the PTR.
    What do you expect? bairdy doesnt have a sha touched weapon. No shit his damage is behind.

    If you are talking about any add based fights. What exactly do you expect? Single target isn't suffering and GC just admitted our aoe was dogshit today and AOE tuning is going to happen shortly. If we get some umph into our aoe rotation we should be set. Especially if in the tuning they nuke the shit out of HB aoe damage. Then 2 set indirectly increases our aoe already from the next tier. and 4 set is a great additon. But then the majority of rets power has always come from tier sets <hello stormadins in iCC , Hello DS, Hello... Hammeridins? Thankfully wings are baseline now so our rotation stays same as live.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-02-20 at 02:52 AM.

  20. #1380
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    What do you expect? bairdy doesnt have a sha touched weapon. No shit his damage is behind.
    Suprising you dont know this but raid leaders and Gm's of progression guilds talk/bullshit about changes, classes specs on how to build the next raid team. I am not taking what i said from my own perspective alone. The others who are holy were also trying out ret and go off weapons while they were healing, we had them dpsing on the ptr with sha-touched weapons. Even with arcane nerfed, afflic,dk, and warriors were stil far ahead and 2 of our mages played fire and were still ahead.

    Im not putting anything down but i can tell you that it isnt just one guild or raid leader of good progression guilds thinking of dumping ret altogether especially with dk buffs. It is about numbers right?

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