Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[Neldarie]

I hope nobody agrees with the two above posters. Retribution paladins were the rock stars this patch (with the best initial burst). Most of us (the good of us atleast) were topping charts regularly

Hello, I stomp (when I want to), and no I don't agree with you

[Meanor]

Looking at the simcraft for heroic t14 you may notice, while it may be hard to read, that ret is actually second from the bottom.

Which of-course is not the truth. We are not second from bottom but then we aren't second from top. Middle of pack is what defines us better.

Furthermore, claiming that we were actually a great class this patch shows me that you have no idea what you're actually talking about and I am wasting my time by posting this but you caught me at a bad time.

Well some people do well vs their raid groups. However, the truth is, that if you take equally skilled players, you will never be no-where close to top. To op: if you are consistently topping meters you need to re-consider the guild you are in.

[anaxie]

Which of-course is not the truth. We are not second from bottom but then we aren't second from top. Middle of pack is what defines us better.



Well some people do well vs their raid groups. However, the truth is, that if you take equally skilled players, you will never be no-where close to top. To op: if you are consistently topping meters you need to re-consider the guild you are in.

Simcraft also had patchwerk , imbalanced troll / orc for all specs but rets, and classes jumping through wildly unrealistic hoops to achieve the simcraft numbers.

So yes the simcraft chart is accurate for the #1 players. If they are a god himself single target no gimmic.
Sadly nothing is single target non gimmic so the chart is completely irrelevant.

Also

To op: if you are consistently topping meters you need to re-consider the guild you are in.

Lets not push my buttons lest I get banned again making you look silly.

[Deleted]

Also Lets not push my buttons lest I get banned again making you look silly.

Simple mis-use of OP imo from Meanor

Feathers : I can see it has a 22sec ICD on top of having a clunky mechanic... It would have been better off to add 3333STR every 5s for 20s maybe..

[Deleted]

Also Lets not push my buttons lest I get banned again making you look silly.

He was talking to Peking_Man

[anaxie]

Simple mis-use of OP imo from Meanor

Feathers : I can see it has a 22sec ICD on top of having a clunky mechanic... It would have been better off to add 3333STR every 5s for 20s maybe..

Clunky because lining up that and zandalar since they are RPPM and no ICD is largely unrealistic. Better to line up a Zandalar only and a passive chunk of str.

---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 06:10 PM ----------

He was talking to Peking_Man

Oh yeah that guy is wrong. But considering his brief PoV with no examples it shoulda been ignored.

[Meanor]

Simcraft also had patchwerk , imbalanced troll / orc for all specs but rets, and classes jumping through wildly unrealistic hoops to achieve the simcraft numbers.

So yes the simcraft chart is accurate for the #1 players. If they are a god himself single target no gimmic.
Sadly nothing is single target non gimmic so the chart is completely irrelevant.

I agree. Tbh a better indication is what people are doing in average. Since that is a better than any individual performance.

Lets not push my buttons lest I get banned again making you look silly.

You never fail to make me /giggle. Welcome back =)

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I hope nobody agrees with the two above posters. Retribution paladins were the rock stars this patch (with the best initial burst). Most of us (the good of us atleast) were topping charts regularly

If you're topping charts on any fight in T14 except Garalon and maybe Windlord you're playing with bad players, honestly there's no reason a ret should beat anyone except on that fight and even on those fights we're not top. Yes we burst for 30sec but after that's gone our dps drops to ~100k-110k dps while other classes have 120k+ sustained dps. Our burst simply can't hold our average dps higher than everyone elses sustained. If you think it does then you got no clue, sorry.

---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 08:38 PM ----------

Are we that crazy if we just love this spec above all others and we cling to the hopes of shinier moments? Are we selfish being stubborn to play it in the detriment of the guild interest ??

It doesn't really matter if you play ret or not unless you're on the bleeding edge of progression, the moment you start pushing content so hard that you have to replace lowest dps that's the point where rets are gonna be replaced. At this level I asume people are of equal skill and thus ret being worst dps class = ret getting replaced. I'm not saying you can't get top 5 dps charts in your guild, I'm saying compare the best ret vs the best of any other class and the ret should lose every single time. That's not a "qq", that's a fact.

I play ret because I enjoy the class "flow" and toolkit, while our support and utility isn't as unique anymore paladins are good in raids because of those few unique buffs we bring. That said if you have a tankadin and 2-3 holy paladins you should consider yourself lucky if your guild takes you for the additional CDs which become much less valuable after 3 paladins in total. This changes with each encounter ofc.

[Freppi]

New post from Ghostcrawler about ret aoe.

"Since the Seal of Righteousness change, Ret is actually one of the best specs at clumped AE. I’d encourage you to try it out. Now, AE is a pretty broad encompassing term and it depends a lot on number of targets, length of the fight and so forth. Players tend to focus less on the encounters that are considered easy and a lot more on those that are considered blocking, so the specific encounter mechanics of the hardest fights become the yardstick of which kind of AE is considered important at any point in time."

[Jaling]

If you're topping charts on any fight in T14 except Garalon and maybe Windlord you're playing with bad players, honestly there's no reason a ret should beat anyone except on that fight and even on those fights we're not top. Yes we burst for 30sec but after that's gone our dps drops to ~100k-110k dps while other classes have 120k+ sustained dps. Our burst simply can't hold our average dps higher than everyone elses sustained. If you think it does then you got no clue, sorry.

Have to agree. Earlier in T14 I was on a team were I would top DPS on almost every fight. Then I joined a more accomplished team and watched my rank drop. I can start out #1 with a pre-pot and our insane burst, but easily fall over the course of the fight. I don't mind; my team has fantastic players who get everything out of their class. I'd rather be 3-5 on the DPS meter (but still standing up on my own two feet, of course) and progressing through content than #1 and stuck on Garalon.

[Toxicity]

Ghostcrawler:
Since the Seal of Righteousness change, Ret is actually one of the best specs at clumped AE. I’d encourage you to try it out.

I can't test it now since i deleted PTR, but last time i check (3days ago or so) SoR was hitting like a wet noodle against 4 targets. Any US players can test it?

[Deleted]

We've been told many times over the course of this testing that ret was around the same spot as the other melee specs in terms of single target but that ret was lacking in the AOE/Cleave department and that was something you were going to look at.


@GC:
Since the Seal of Righteousness change, Ret is actually one of the best specs at clumped AE. I’d encourage you to try it out. Now, AE is a pretty broad encompassing term and it depends a lot on number of targets, length of the fight and so forth. Players tend to focus less on the encounters that are considered easy and a lot more on those that are considered blocking, so the specific encounter mechanics of the hardest fights become the yardstick of which kind of AE is considered important at any point in time.

I don't get it.
So a meaningless buff of 4% takes us from non-existent to top noch in aoe-cleave fights?
Does he rly believe in what he's saying?

HOORAY!

[anaxie]

I don't get it.
So a meaningless buff of 4% takes us from non-existent to top noch in aoe-cleave fights?
Does he rly believe in what he's saying?

HOORAY!

Not sure why they didn't just make it 12% weapon damage = to truth. Not like we would swap single target or anything.
Prolly consider swapping with that number.

I think he is confused by rets taking HA and spamming divine storm. Errmahgud dat aoe.

Or worse they base our aoe of... trash dps LOL. It's very likely they do tho.

[cidic]

Is it bad that I just want to lay into GC and rip him a new asshole with all the crap he is spewing. I would challenge GC to actually provide US with proof for once that our AE is "one of the best specs at clumped AE"

[Aceshigh]

That was my post and when I got GC's response I was less than impressed but now I can't post in that thread anymore. Every time I enter a new post when I hit submit it just turns the field blank again so I can't ask him much more about it. Less than impressed with his answer and I took a rather conservative approach in my post since many on here have been amazing with feedback for the past months, not asking for buffs to us or nerfs to anyone else, simply asking for the logic behind them. He took the 1 part of my post which I was unsure to include and picked it up right away. Ghostcrawler is almost too good at answering questions without actually answering questions, a skill which I am sure has served hi very well in his job as he deals with a lot of shit, but I think this particular issue deserved a better answer. From what I have seen the 50% buff to SOTR doesn't put us in a very competitive spot in sustained AOE and it still gives us 0 buff to cleave damage, something which seems to become more and more important. I''m glad I took it slow last tier, didn't do much progression raiding and had to be mainspec port considering how ret has been completely overlooked. Furthermore, Huntington has been saying it all week, the patch isn't ready to go live yet and a round of damage buffs put in mere hours before this patch goes live without testing completely confirms that, if we even needed it to be confirmed.

Lastly, I tried to ask him what kind of numbers he's seeing with the SOTR buff (since he likes to tell us all the time that our data doesn't line up with theirs) but as I mentioned I can't post in that thread anymore, still trying to figure it out. If anyone can ask him what kind of buff he's seeing from live SOTR to PTR (soon to be live) SOTR I'd love to see it so when we come back with something different n a weeks time we'll have something to compare it from. I know we won't get the answer because they don't do those kind of answers, but would still be nice. As Anaxie, Hunt, Reith and many others in this thread and across the community have said before wait a month or two till the progression race is over and we MIGHT see some more tuning.


EDIT: Just logged in and the only realm that was up was Medivh, but it was still up. Looks like we might not get a second delay

[Deleted]

Is it bad that I just want to lay into GC and rip him a new asshole with all the crap he is spewing. I would challenge GC to actually provide US with proof for once that our AE is "one of the best specs at clumped AE"

They won't risk getting ridiculed by some people who can "make them look silly" in a heart beat. That's why you see big mouthfuls CMs "bragging" with their "impressive" progression.

Their argument is "because we say so, 'cause we have the right data/feedback". Childish, isn't it ?

He took the 1 part of my post which I was unsure to include and picked it up right away. Ghostcrawler is almost too good at answering questions without actually answering questions, a skill which I am sure has served hi very well in his job as he deals with a lot of shit, but I think this particular issue deserved a better answer.

Of course he does, he can talk more and louder than you and fool you in the face. And smiling at the same time. It's his job.
Though, in the current state of affairs, I wish he wouldn't have any design decision role..

[SirTolomay]

to this whole debate of ret aoe....after looking over world of logs for 25m hardmode on windlord...it seems ret outperformed most other dps specs. i chose that fight since it is the purest aoe fight we have for t14...so by those standards yes ret aoe is one of the best. it all depends on what you consider aoe...cause 2 or 3 targets does not constitute aoe.
personally i prefer single target buffs as most bosses are not aoe fights anyway.

[Neldarie]

to this whole debate of ret aoe....after looking over world of logs for 25m hardmode on windlord...it seems ret outperformed most other dps specs. i chose that fight since it is the purest aoe fight we have for t14...so by those standards yes ret aoe is one of the best. it all depends on what you consider aoe...cause 2 or 3 targets does not constitute aoe.
personally i prefer single target buffs as most bosses are not aoe fights anyway.

How about you actually get a clue at what AoE really is, before making yourself look stupid? And look at Windlord NORMAL instead (since heroic is all about the 600% dmg burn burst into boss at what ret actually excells).

Besides 2-3 target "aoe" or lets call it Cleave is something that ret isn't that horrible at due to "censure cleaving". Passive dmg is what carries true AoE. Lack of passives as retribution is the true downfall of that concept.

And tbh there is no such thing as "pure aoe" encounter in the first place. Splitting logs and looking at the timeframes where THAT is the case is most productive to see reality.

But yes since Windlord is the perfect for ret scenario in terms of AoE potential lets look at it more closely (because patchwerk tank-spank type; hence passive dmg isn't as valuable as it usually is elsewhere):
Here is an example: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/b960h...?s=4884&e=4931

[Reith]

Where does Ghostcrawler get off saying that Ret is now "one of the best at clumped AOE" when all they did was change Seal of Righteousness from 6% to 9%? We're still crap on the most common number of enemies: 2-4. And not only are we crap on those amounts of enemies, we have to jump through hoops to do our maximum damage on 3-4 targets while many other DPS specs get to take it easy. This sucks...

[Deleted]

to this whole debate of ret aoe....after looking over world of logs for 25m hardmode on windlord...it seems ret outperformed most other dps specs. i chose that fight since it is the purest aoe fight we have for t14...so by those standards yes ret aoe is one of the best. it all depends on what you consider aoe...cause 2 or 3 targets does not constitute aoe.
personally i prefer single target buffs as most bosses are not aoe fights anyway.

Thought it was a joke... sorry.
You must not have touched a paladin in the whole tier as a DPS to state something this inaccurate. As a paladin, even with SotR outside of +600% when 6 adds are up, you literally are as deep as you can be in a dungeon hole, and when you blow CDs on +600% phase, that's when you blow up the charts.

AOE is damage on 4+ targets (since 3 censures are easy to keep up) without cooldowns and keep up - even if just a little - with arcane mages, SP, locks. This means getting an increase in DPS compared to single target that is significant, unlike we have here (go from 110K single to 125K AOE meeh).

This is the second post in a row that is taunting by its total ignorance of the class, as if we were not frustrated enough by the situation Ret is in. Please stop.

As for the use of HA for bursting AOE, if only the adds have enough health to make us use it in its full duration, yeah, we will blowing them up, but at the cost of our CDs, so I don't see why it should be seen as OP by some crab in a drawer. Besides, this means that the adds should be a priority to kill worth to use our CDs on not to waste damage on the boss (such as green phase of H-Maloriak for instance).