1. #1861
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicy View Post
    Ret is strong on most fights, if not all.
    Compared to who?

  2. #1862
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Prometheous View Post
    You should get the spark and primordius' trinket, those are our BiS for normal thanks to the ICD on the VP one. It is better than relic but only barely, I wouldn't waste my VP on it, save for ring/cloak/neck first.

    Cool cheers. Got the ring + neck so cloak is next on the list.

  3. #1863
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Compared to who?
    Jin'rokh, Horridon, Megaera, Durumu, Primordius are fights where ret can compete with most classes on as long as your raidleader lets you play our strengths, which they should.
    Iron Qon is a shit fight for melee in general if they haven't fixed the hitbox issues from PTR, havent personally done Twin Consorts/Lei Shen yet, but Lei Shen looks like a strong fight for us aswell where we can compete with most classes on.
    "Remembrance of things past is not necessarily the remembrance of things as they were."
    Juseeh
    T11 WR: 115, T12 WR: 45, T14 WR:44, T15 WR:37, T16: WR:28

  4. #1864
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicy View Post
    Jin'rokh, Horridon, Megaera, Durumu, Primordius are fights where ret can compete with most classes on as long as your raidleader lets you play our strengths, which they should.
    Iron Qon is a shit fight for melee in general if they haven't fixed the hitbox issues from PTR, havent personally done Twin Consorts/Lei Shen yet, but Lei Shen looks like a strong fight for us aswell where we can compete with most classes on.
    No compared to other dps specs, where is ret good? I know where ret is able to play to it's strenghts but that doesn't mean we'll beat other dpsers. Also so far we've only seen normal mode, things change drasticly on heroic. Been on PTR? Heroic mechanics fuck melee over hard and the fights that favour cleave, multidot and aoe fucks ret in particular. Like saying ret is going to be competative on Horridon HC if we're 100% on the boss and just abuse the damage increase he takes, at that point you're dragging your raid down which is my point. Any job a ret can do this tier some other dps spec can do better. Sad but true.

  5. #1865
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    No compared to other dps specs, where is ret good? I know where ret is able to play to it's strenghts but that doesn't mean we'll beat other dpsers. Also so far we've only seen normal mode, things change drasticly on heroic. Been on PTR? Heroic mechanics fuck melee over hard and the fights that favour cleave, multidot and aoe fucks ret in particular. Like saying ret is going to be competative on Horridon HC if we're 100% on the boss and just abuse the damage increase he takes, at that point you're dragging your raid down which is my point. Any job a ret can do this tier some other dps spec can do better. Sad but true.
    Horridon has 1900 million hp on 25man heroic, you need some dpsers to stay on boss fulltime, how is that dragging the raid down?
    And yes, I did test most of the PTR bosses on both 10man heroic and 25man heroic.
    Last edited by Juicy; 2013-03-09 at 05:08 PM.
    "Remembrance of things past is not necessarily the remembrance of things as they were."
    Juseeh
    T11 WR: 115, T12 WR: 45, T14 WR:44, T15 WR:37, T16: WR:28

  6. #1866
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicy View Post
    Horridon has 1900 million hp on 25man heroic, you need some dpsers to stay on boss fulltime, how is that dragging the raid down?
    And yes, I did test most of the PTR bosses on both 10man heroic and 25man heroic.
    Any melle you bring to Horridon you're most likely going to assign to interrupt or stun target which means dks will be insanely strong, Horridon dps comes from multidotters and ranged switching when the 3 special mobs are dead/taken care of. There's also stronger singletarget dpsers than ret you can stick on Horridon.

  7. #1867
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicy View Post
    Horridon has 1900 million hp on 25man heroic, you need some dpsers to stay on boss fulltime, how is that dragging the raid down?
    Because killing Horridon is not and will not be an issue, ever. He takes progressively more and more damage as the fight goes on and he takes 200% more damage for a while. Horridon is not a problem at all. The adds are much more important and that's why you will need to be on them, period, the end.

    Regarding Ret DPS compared to others, if you're not getting beaten by almost every other class in almost every situation, the people playing them suck. That's all there is to it. The only classes that shouldn't beat you consistently are Monks and Shamans - that's it.

  8. #1868
    Quote Originally Posted by Footsz View Post
    As a personal input I tried SOR with ~ 4-5 adds and noted a sizeable AOE increase. But some verification be nice, don't wanna seal swap too many times for no reason (or seal swap to a loss in DPS).

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-07 at 01:07 AM ----------



    The big benefit to using CS over Judgement normally is that CS has a faster cooldown, and will generate faster holy power. During avenging wrath (with sanctified wrath) that benefit is negated, because your GCDs will end up as this:

    HoW
    Judge
    HoW
    TV
    HoW
    Judge
    HoW
    TV

    The time between judgements is just long enough its cooldown comes back up, and we wouldn't be able to weave CS in more often, so we swap to judgement for SW'd wings.
    Thanks a lot!

  9. #1869
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Because killing Horridon is not and will not be an issue, ever. He takes progressively more and more damage as the fight goes on and he takes 200% more damage for a while. Horridon is not a problem at all. The adds are much more important and that's why you will need to be on them, period, the end.

    Regarding Ret DPS compared to others, if you're not getting beaten by almost every other class in almost every situation, the people playing them suck. That's all there is to it. The only classes that shouldn't beat you consistently are Monks and Shamans - that's it.
    200% still means it will take a while to actually kill Horridon, especially at 1900 mil hp. Also ret is nowhere near as bad as you both keep repeating all over again everywhere.
    "Remembrance of things past is not necessarily the remembrance of things as they were."
    Juseeh
    T11 WR: 115, T12 WR: 45, T14 WR:44, T15 WR:37, T16: WR:28

  10. #1870
    Quote Originally Posted by Prometheous View Post
    You should get the spark and primordius' trinket, those are our BiS for normal thanks to the ICD on the VP one. It is better than relic but only barely, I wouldn't waste my VP on it, save for ring/cloak/neck first.
    That doesn't really jive with any of the math I've seen. Spark, by all accounts is quite bad. Possibly because it can virtually never line up with cooldowns? I'm not sure.

  11. #1871
    Anyone with primordius trinket here? I can't stack it more than 3 it always fall off before another stack.

  12. #1872
    Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. I see that the trinket list here is different, and a few people disagree with the trinkets we recommend. I'm stalking MMO-C forums to find people who disagree and do some theorycrafting. Trinkets are tough, but we simulate all of them to get the average uptime (here's a list of those simulated values). This takes the RealPPM into account, as well as a person's Haste. Here's some in-depth details about how we handle trinkets. Also, we're using the latest proc information from Ghostcrawler.

    That being said, I'd like to make sure everything is working right on our trinkets, just in case one of them needs adjusting. For this exercise I'm using the stat weights of: STR (3.52), Haste (1.93), Exp (2.5), Crit (1.46)

    As you can see from that math, the Brutal Talisman destroys the other trinkets. Now, let's do a reality check with napkin math regarding these trinket procs:
    • Brutal Talisman: 15% chance for 15 sec w/ 75 sec ICD. That is a 20% uptime. So 20% * 8800 STR = 1760 STR
    • Darkmist Vortex: 15% chance for 20 sec w/105 ICD. That's a 19% uptime. So 19% * 7796 = 1481 Haste
    • Spark of Zandalar: Get 10 stacks once every 2 minutes (5RPPM). 20 sec duration over 120 seconds = 16% uptime. 16% * 8279 = 1325 STR
    • Primordius Talisman: 3 RPPM. So it's up for 10 sec out of every 20 sec for a 50% uptime. 50% * 1538 = 769 STR

    Now, Haste affects the RPPM, so let's apply about a 30% buff from extra procs to the two RPPM trinkets. NOTE!! Mr. Robot factors in your actual Haste when ranking the trinkets for your character. Anyway, the new numbers would look like this:
    • Brutal Talisman: 1760 STR
    • Darkmist Vortex: 1481 Haste
    • Spark of Zandalar: 1325 STR + 30% = 1722 STR
    • Primordius Talisman: 769 STR + 30% = 1000 STR

    So my question to all of you: am I missing something? (It's possible, we have data coming out our ears for our 5.2 updates). Or do you prefer the other trinkets for a different reason, since a lot of trinkets just come down to personal preference for people. Or does the math work out and make sense and Mr. Robot's original rankings are right?

    Edit: added to answer megraam: it will be very rare to stack it past 3. Even stacking to 3 is probably not that common. It should proc 3 times per minute, on average and last for 10 seconds, so you need procs to happen pretty quickly to even get to a stack of 3.
    Ask Mr. Robot Human Minion

  13. #1873
    As far as I know, for the talisman, the expertise aren't extra stats, you're going to be expertise capped anyway, therefore you need to calculate its value using our highest non-cappable stat, and even then it's a bit iffy, because that 1467 expertise might not fully become haste from reforging, parts may become crit or mastery. That's why you're overvaluing it.

  14. #1874
    Deleted
    Someone from the Mr. Robot team, cool. After reading your post I have a side remark regarding your stat weights:
    Personally I think (in most circumstances) Exp (and hit) should, at best, be of equal value to our strongest non-capable secondary stat.
    I know that we have some more experienced rets here, so I ask if you would agree with my logic?

  15. #1875
    Pinkcrusader, what would your reasoning be for setting them equal to your strongest non-cappable secondary stat? What are you trying to achieve with that? (note, that has NO snooty undertone, I'm really just curious to the reasoning... but you know how tone of voice gets lost on the internetz)
    Ask Mr. Robot Human Minion

  16. #1876
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkcrusader View Post
    Someone from the Mr. Robot team, cool. After reading your post I have a side remark regarding your stat weights:
    Personally I think (in most circumstances) Exp (and hit) should, at best, be of equal value to our strongest non-capable secondary stat.
    I know that we have some more experienced rets here, so I ask if you would agree with my logic?
    You're more likely to convert crit or extra expertise to mastery, but it depends on your gear, obviously.

    On another unrelated note, 42% haste is not possible (or not optimal) if you don't have ra-den loot.

  17. #1877
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicy View Post
    200% still means it will take a while to actually kill Horridon, especially at 1900 mil hp. Also ret is nowhere near as bad as you both keep repeating all over again everywhere.
    Keep telling yourself that and we'll talk again in about a month or two and you tell us how your guild killed Horridon and how we killed Horridon (if rets are taken) and then we might see. Keep in mind that I talk about how bleeding edge guilds will progress this, which means like top 20-30 or so world. Not top ~100 like the guild I'm in.

  18. #1878
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Pinkcrusader, what would your reasoning be for setting them equal to your strongest non-cappable secondary stat? What are you trying to achieve with that? (note, that has NO snooty undertone, I'm really just curious to the reasoning... but you know how tone of voice gets lost on the internetz)
    That would be because of reforging away of the expertise into our best 2ndary stat (haste) on other pieces of our gear.
    We get a 1467Exp trink ? : reforge it and then we reforge other pieces of gear with expertise to gain 1467 of haste or a mix of haste/mastery depending of personnal gear.

  19. #1879
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    You're more likely to convert crit or extra expertise to mastery, but it depends on your gear, obviously.

    On another unrelated note, 42% haste is not possible (or not optimal) if you don't have ra-den loot.
    I'm at 31.5% haste unbuffed atm,

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-09 at 11:10 PM ----------

    @ Zoopercat
    Don't know if you took Spark of Zandalars lack of an ICD into consideration. If you go by 10stacks at 120 seconds then "20" stacks will happen at 240 seconds, stacks build up again as soon as the first 10 is reached.

  20. #1880
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Keep telling yourself that and we'll talk again in about a month or two and you tell us how your guild killed Horridon and how we killed Horridon (if rets are taken) and then we might see. Keep in mind that I talk about how bleeding edge guilds will progress this, which means like top 20-30 or so world. Not top ~100 like the guild I'm in.
    If you're worried about not being taken into raids as a ret in a rank 40-100 guild, you might start considering trying to improve your play.
    "Remembrance of things past is not necessarily the remembrance of things as they were."
    Juseeh
    T11 WR: 115, T12 WR: 45, T14 WR:44, T15 WR:37, T16: WR:28

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