1. #3381
    Quote Originally Posted by Temperance Brennan View Post
    within the same itemlevel: Hells=Bo-Ris>Uroe>>>Zerat. Bo-Ris pulls ahead slightly at high gear levels because we have so much haste on our gear.
    they are not the same ilvl or i would have not asked =D the Zerat is TF and the Hells is not...

  2. #3382
    Easy answer: sim it

  3. #3383
    Quote Originally Posted by Flowe View Post
    Easy answer: sim it
    yes that would be a easy answer but i was under the impression that sims were WAY off when it came to rets. something about crit scaling and trinket procs come to mind. dont know how old that info its tho.

  4. #3384
    The Patient Dmchomerun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Except those 516's are 3.5 speed making them much less attractive and LFR weapons end up pulling ahead I do believe.
    Weapon DPS far outweighs weapon speed, and although the 516s are only 3.5, the weapon damage outweighs the small loss from weapon speed.
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  5. #3385
    Quote Originally Posted by Paintpauller View Post
    yes that would be a easy answer but i was under the impression that sims were WAY off when it came to rets. something about crit scaling and trinket procs come to mind. dont know how old that info its tho.
    Mhhh i have no problems with latest simcraft build.

    I think when you don't need the hit from zerat frozen hells is slightly better , but when i'm right both weapons were close ....

  6. #3386
    Quote Originally Posted by Paintpauller View Post
    they are not the same ilvl or i would have not asked =D the Zerat is TF and the Hells is not...
    I'm sorry, I must have misread what you wrote.

    The answer depends on whether you use all the hit rating on your zerat. if you do, zerat is better. if you don't, hells is better.

    also, even if sims are unreliable for ret, it's okay for comparing single items, because whatever bugs are active during 1 sim are also active during the next.
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  7. #3387
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    Anaxie, I noticed you have the h tf jin'rohk tank ring in the bis list, is that because of mass amount of strength on it?

  8. #3388
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    I would rather see the 4 set bonus be something like, "25% chance on holy power consumer or 25% chance whenever you use a templar's verdict, you also trigger a divine storm". Since we will get alot higher haste levels in the next tier. Another button to press feels just unecessary. So why not just give us an extra bonus dmg instead of another DP proc

  9. #3389
    Quote Originally Posted by filfa View Post
    Anaxie, I noticed you have the h tf jin'rohk tank ring in the bis list, is that because of mass amount of strength on it?
    it's because the megaera ring is awfully itemized with hit and crit. optimal combination is primordius and ra-den, but not everyone has access to ra-den.
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  10. #3390
    Quote Originally Posted by Reghame View Post
    anaxie, while i was testing the new 4 piece the only time any proc would be wasted with DP is IF you use the DS proc WITH dp up as well, this may be a bug but i dont know. as it stands we would only waste procs like that on pure AOE where we just spam DS.
    As for replacing TV with DS permanently, i don't see it being a problem as long as they keep the damage bonus on the tier set.
    and yes, the current T16 is just place holder with the bonuses on the last set, we still have no idea what stats are on it(PLEASE GOD! NO MORE HIT! 11% WAY MORE THAN ENOUGH!) i also hope it looks cool too, almost had a heart attack over how horrendous the season 14 set looked like and thought that was the t16 set, i nearly cried.
    I tested T16 and when you have DP and DS proc at same time, DS consume one at the time. So they fixed bug with latest PTR build.

  11. #3391
    Quote Originally Posted by monoroth View Post
    I tested T16 and when you have DP and DS proc at same time, DS consume one at the time. So they fixed bug with latest PTR build.
    Good news
    Buff it to 100% and off GCD with 40% chance and we have a nice bonus

  12. #3392
    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    Good news
    Buff it to 100% and off GCD with 40% chance and we have a nice bonus
    It won't ever be off the GCD because then you could just macro it and forget it even exists. They don't want it to be passive.

  13. #3393
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    They could very easily make the 4set work like the current ele shaman 4set, just a plain and simple passive. Making it use a GCD (which strips us of one holy power) and not being a significant damage increase (single target) is definitely NOT the way to go imo.
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  14. #3394
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    They could very easily make the 4set work like the current ele shaman 4set, just a plain and simple passive. Making it use a GCD (which strips us of one holy power) and not being a significant damage increase (single target) is definitely NOT the way to go imo.
    It's fine as long as the 2-set is improved.

  15. #3395
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    i don't think people realize that generating HP when your already spamming finishers does not mean anything. your doing WAY more damage by spamming Tvs an DSs with the 4 piece + dp than trying to generate HP and use plain old Tvs.
    also, it would seem the DP+ 4 piece bug where using DS while having a DP and 4 set proc would consume two, it now only consumes one of them which is a VERY VERY VERY large AOE/cleave dps increase now that it is fixed. whats that? we heard you like to DS spin for AOE. so we let you spin while you spin so you can spin some more!

    jokes aside, the 2 piece is also getting some flack that i also took for granted but after VARIOUS ptr tests, using skada on 10 minute long fights the buff had roughly 40% uptime. thats nothing to really scoff at considering its a FLAT 5% damage boost. aka its roughly a 2% dps increase depending on procs which i believe is what they usually want 2 piece sets to be

  16. #3396
    Quote Originally Posted by Temperance Brennan View Post
    it's because the megaera ring is awfully itemized with hit and crit. optimal combination is primordius and ra-den, but not everyone has access to ra-den.
    It's because if you are using double hit rings. There a pretty good chance you are over the hit cap so the dodge and hit are basically the same in value funny I'm sure. But expertise which can pretty much be considered mastery is better then crit.
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  17. #3397
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    ohh, before i forget. it would seem on the PTR if you logged out with the old sacred shield on before the talent changes, you would get the prot sacred shield AND the new passive.
    having both i can say i feel very strong but still able to be taken down in the right hands. being able to shield myself or my allies while having a soft barrier for hard siwtches is indeed nice. i would like this bug to turn into an actual thing where they nerfed holy shield by maybe 30%ish and having the sacred shield talent unchanged.

  18. #3398
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmchomerun View Post
    Weapon DPS far outweighs weapon speed, and although the 516s are only 3.5, the weapon damage outweighs the small loss from weapon speed.
    Really? Cause I thought weapons speed was absolutely huge, to the point where they normalized almost every single weapon in the game. Something comes to mind about the 3.7 rag mace being pretty much on par with the 410 3.6 DS weapon. Could be wrong but I thought the importance of speed is what caused the normalization.

  19. #3399
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reghame View Post
    i don't think people realize that generating HP when your already spamming finishers does not mean anything. your doing WAY more damage by spamming Tvs an DSs with the 4 piece + dp than trying to generate HP and use plain old Tvs.
    The thing is that isn't "free", atm we only gain 2 holy power. The one holy power we miss is 33.33% of a TV or another DS in a aoe situation. They either need to buff up the proc damage increase so it's actually doing enough damage to cover a third of a TV and the damage of a filler.
    1 less holy power means:
    33% of 275% wep damage + 1727 = 92% wep damage + damage loss from a potential Templar's Verdict + any hand of light damage
    + either crusader strike, judgement, exorcism.
    CS = 125% wep damage + hand of light
    Judgement = [54.6% of Spell Power + 32.8% of AP]
    Exorcism = [ 6,960 + 67.7% of AP ]

    Average out the filler damage potentials to around 80-100% wep damage (some to compensate for holy damage ignoring armor)
    So the 4set DS proc needs to hit for around 200% wep damage for it to be a single target MATCHING output source, let alone a bonus as in a damage increase. Now I'm not going to be completely moronic and say that the 4set proc needs to hit for 250% wep damage on ALL targets, that would be OP as hell. Make it do 250% (or more) to primary target and then the regular 100% to others!

    This tiers set bonus was strictly single target, next tier (with the current scaling) is ONLY aoe. Now looking at the fight next tier it's fine but it's retarded that a set bonus ONLY goes one way, if there's a strict one target boss fight next tier we might as well ignore our 4piece as it currently sits and go for the offpieces which might have better itemization OR use our current 4set which is insanely strong for single target (if you're lucky) and with higher ilvl weps next tier as well you're just going to dream of the 2mill TV crits.

    I agree the 2piece is very good but I hate that it procs from art of war, it makes it unreliable and it's going to clip itself so much and then you're not going to see it for 20 seconds again. I'm being overly negative though, our set bonuses are good "first wave of ptr" changes but they need a lot of adjustments and scaling changes for them to be considered "good". Increasing the duration of the 2set proc would be a good start.
    Last edited by Huntingbear_grimbatol; 2013-06-21 at 07:45 PM.
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  20. #3400
    The Patient Dmchomerun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Really? Cause I thought weapons speed was absolutely huge, to the point where they normalized almost every single weapon in the game. Something comes to mind about the 3.7 rag mace being pretty much on par with the 410 3.6 DS weapon. Could be wrong but I thought the importance of speed is what caused the normalization.
    I just looked again and I got WSpeed and WDPS mixed up on my weights, BUT, considering how different the speeds are, you're looking at something like 55 DPS.

    I did a sim for someone a handful of pages back, and without the secondary stats added in to either weapon, the 516 had a raid finder weapon beat by about 5k DPS.

    Edit: Page 149 is the post where I did that.
    Last edited by Dmchomerun; 2013-06-21 at 08:17 PM.
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