Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[anaxie]

Not necessarily, what makes that combo so strong now is that we are currently able to line up massive strength procs rather predictably with SW. of course we can't do this next tier, these massive AP boosting trinkets just arn't there. HoW's damage as a whole won't change. However, we will gain close to ~10k weapon damage quite quickly, obviously HoW gains no coefficient from weapon damage so, again, no gain.

Naturally this leads me to the conclusion that a weapon damage oriented setup is the way to go. mechanically with how the current iteration of the four piece functions with DP it really doesn't suffer from RNG, literally every other cast benefits from the stat trinket, whereas the benefits from the CD reduction trinket are not immediatly apparent, sure you gain increased access to CD's but that doesnt mean shit if you have no sustained dps.

Guardian and access to wings is essential because they are predictable and large gains. I'm not sure how important devotion aura and outgoing damage in general for these raids will be but seems like alot since they buffed tranqu and stuff last tier ONTOP ofthese trinkets reducing shit like Smoke bomb/ Rally / Devo.

And yeah with the TIER strength gains. Raw 30 ilvl str gains across the board, and the weapon I'd say we will finish the tier assuming HTF wpn and full heroic NON tf gear. idk... +18,000 weapon damage? roughly 75,000-77,000 raid buffed? Should be 150k un-modded damage per divine storm or 300k per hit if mastery goes beyond 60%.

We really at this point have to wait type of gear we are looking at and the trinket proc values to be finalized. I think suggesting Holy TV's single target power would be a good suggestion so we can potentially push towards a slightly more powerful set bonus. I'd settle on 70% increased damage on DS.

Guardian damage especially with 50% haste is pretty substantial and the potential to use him every 2 minutes or less is a pretty big dps upgrade on it's own. Nevermind the fact you can consider his 12% strength to be a lengthy trinket proc in additon to 20% damage uptime which is also nothing to scoff at. + the trinket itself can proc strength. No the CD reduction trinket is too good.

It kinda sucks because we have NO IDEA what the actual trinket procs are until we see them on live. Fuck I'm pretty sure feathers trinket tooltip is still wrong compared to the benefit it provides. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The CLEAVE trinket in comparison to others eems weak. If it's infact A FUCKTON higher then first mining shows. and If MULTIPLE DS hits can translate to the primary target. THAT may be the BIS trinket on more then a few encounters with our tier synergy. If you are hitting adds EVEN adds that heal on transitions if DS translates to the PRIMARY target. That is like having a DIRECT Holy templars verdict appear out of thin air.

The Cleave trinket should NOT be ignored currently especially considering the Xuen cloak proc is a aoe flurry that may end up proccing it aswell. Maybe even guardian swings would be affected?

So far the only trinket I'm fairly sure will be completely useless is the passive str / haste proc trinket unless that thing has like 80% uptime which I'm skeptical of.

---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 06:30 AM ----------

Have no fucking Idea which is the true spell I'd but the tooltip for the trinket on the spell ID lists the passive ratings trinkets as 6% crit mod, mast, haste. Which is roughly 4260 rating + whatever 6% critical damage is worth. That too me seems FAR more likely to be what the TRUE passive values are. We should consider the the CD reduction trinket likely won't go beyond the 17-20% and may Fully cap out at 580 ilvl at the 25% range.

Considering those things. I think we may need to take a look at the Cleave trinkets and see how it interacts with our spec. Oh and if the Cooldown reduction trinkets don't go beyond 20% let alone 25% DP all the way fuck SW.

---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 06:58 AM ----------

The % cooldown trinkets are pretty skewed. For instance you would be retarded to give the agi version to a enh shaman or hunter VS a rogue who gets a reduction on Smoke bomb AND their dps abilities.

---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 07:06 AM ----------

Rogues are speculating for trhe trinkets to be working similar to SoB. Essentially what this means is 50% reduction <if it is provided> WOULD NOT be -1 minute It would infact be translated the way SoB is which means it would be roughly 1:30 seconds.

[Reith]

Well the trinket is a pretty big deal if guardian does the same damage since he will be used every 1:30 on average. Wings uptime. The wings uptime was a big deal DP was a pretty cut and dry choice until the reveal that we may be looking at a 1 min wings CD. That changes EVERYTHING

Well, kind-of. Hammer of Wrath is not an AOE ability. It won't be better than DP on a fight with consistent 3+ targets in melee range, on average, or it'll just basically break even on 3 target fights depending on your RNG. It still makes it viable for those 1-2 mob fights (along with having to re-equip T15 4-set, yaay /sarcasm) but I don't think it beats DP outside of that. Holy Avenger is just terrible at this point, though. I doubt it'll get any adjustment.

Heroic Thunderforged Tier is confirmed. So I guess like DS vs holy TV or not 581 HTF 2/2 tier is going to MAKE us go for the new bonus.

The problem is that it will take a lot of ilvls to actually only break even on 1-2 target fights. That's more of a problem than you think. That's something that Blizzard should be changing, either by nerfing the 4-set and/or buffing the 2-set, or just giving us a flat buff somewhere else. We need to bring this to Blizzard's attention. This is something they'll fix if people bring the issue up, if they don't know about it already.

Not sure just how WELL weapons scale since Ilvl can cause larger and larger gains per 1Ilvl the higher it goes but I think 42,000 581 ilvl weapon is a pretty likely scenario. Which with SoL would be a 13-14,000 weapon damage gain. Perhaps DP will push ahead from SW on a pure scaling standpoint because of raw weapon damage jumps.

just times it by 1.08 until you get to 581. like so: 581-549=32, so you'd do it four times. 31,629 top end damage times 1.08 four times = 43030.9.

[Neldarie]

Basically you're all wrong and SW shits on everything with CD reductions + haste>crit>mastery inc mark my words.

[anaxie]

But if you do that Nelda then we essentially have no set bonus I'm pretty sure the -10% dps drop from T15 4 set needs made up in ways other then ilvl stats gains everyone else gets. The only way to game the proc is through artifically adding things that CAN proc the 4 set and things the 4 set can proc.

SW shits right now because of trinket mechanics but as weapon damage scales upwards Hammer slowly falls behind in damage. It's average crit damage is certainly nothing to be amazed at rather then looking at your best cd stacked crit and pointing fingers.

Which leads me to my next point. If we DO opt for SW that means 4 set is essnetially POOF gone. The question then becomes are the dps gains from potentailly LOTS of extra mastery and LOTS of extra weapon damage gains to come and the potential to have a shorter cd wings with a simplistic Hammer,CS,Hammer,TV repeat rotation optimal in situations without considerable adds where the New T16 would have an edge.

Personally I think at this point they need to buff TV to 315% weapon damage as compensation. Increase the damage of DS to 125% baseline. And simpley just remove the T15 bonus entirely from the equation and give it flat +5% generic passive dps.

TLDR The new 4 set cannot function properly without DP
Hammer generally looks better because the MAJORITY of it comes under cooldowns / +20% modded damage. TV's average which majority fall outside cooldowns / procs is pretty much the average damage HoW produces WITHOUT the consistent benefit HoW has. Add another massive 30 ilvl weapon jump and we are looking out weapons outscaling hoW. And 4 set + DP produce a loop of consistent sustained damage.

Ontop of all this lies a major mechanic soon to come. Flurry of Xuen which is basically a 360% weapon damage Cleave. and on it's own very strong single target damage. If this cloak proc has a chance to proc PER aoe target hit. Well, that alone could catapult DP.

---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 08:19 AM ----------

Believe me I would LOVE to keep hammer spam. It's my favorite time when I'm dpsing anything in the game currently. However we are being pushed away from the talent which I don't view as a great design choice but thats where we are.

[Neldarie]

Doesn't matter what the 4set is and its very minor in the first place (looking at entire picture). No way it can compete with SW at all even w-o CD reduction trinkets. Crit will become even stronger with that cloak proc + if RPPM mentality stays haste will still be king. Mastery is just a shit stat people here too thick to understand why. And ye not to even talk about CRIT DMG increasing trinkets. Wep dmg EVEN with the loss of AP (500str) gems got shit on this tier compared to last (crit alot higher than it used to be vs mastery), so ye don't get me wrong but it won't change for the next either, considering how everything thats NEW only benefits crit and not mastery (aside the new 4set, which IS weaker than current when it comes to mastery value).

[Deleted]

The more and more this patch is revealed, the more and more I get all Giddy with excitement. it's like Christmas all summer.

[anaxie]

Doesn't matter what the 4set is and its very minor in the first place (looking at entire picture). No way it can compete with SW at all even w-o CD reduction trinkets. Crit will become even stronger with that cloak proc + if RPPM mentality stays haste will still be king. Mastery is just a shit stat people here too thick to understand why. And ye not to even talk about CRIT DMG increasing trinkets. Wep dmg EVEN with the loss of AP (500str) gems got shit on this tier compared to last (crit alot higher than it used to be vs mastery), so ye don't get me wrong but it won't change for the next either, considering how everything thats NEW only benefits crit and not mastery (aside the new 4set, which IS weaker than current when it comes to mastery value).

And then we have a huge add tier where our tier tells us to divine storm. What happens to mastery then?

HoW didn't fall behind? No fucking kidding when we have 26k strength procs from feather alone during guardian cycles and spark / primo. Both of which are going bye bye for 10 second 11k procs and reduced guardian strength output.

Meanwhile next tier adds more mastery generated attacks into the roation. and Weapon damage scaling doesn't slow down it actually gets more excessive because the higher the ilvl becomes the more weapon damage / stats you are given PER 1 ilvl. Just look at starshatter 2/2 vs HTF wpn going 2/2 it's nearly a 500 weapon damage difference on those 8 ilvls alone.

[Neldarie]

And then we have a huge add tier where our tier tells us to divine storm. What happens to mastery then?

Then you just reforge/adjust for the fight if thats really the case And it never was about HoW really; it was about wings lasting 10seconds longer thus having much higher uptime (so its pretty obvious with CD reduction stuff).

[anaxie]

Then you just reforge/adjust for the fight if thats really the case And it never was about HoW really; it was about wings lasting 10seconds longer thus having much higher uptime (so its pretty obvious with CD reduction stuff).

We can't even make a decision atm. The proc values are likely wrong and only 17%. I bet the cleave trinket values are wrong. We have no idea what the weapon procs we were promised are yet. There are still too many game changers floating around. I hardly expected trinkets to be this huge a factor and thought feather unbeatable. They showed me D:

The sad truth is it's extremely likely T15 / T16 / and 3+ trinkets and DP + SW are going to be a factor for the entirety of T16 and different sets outperform one another one seperate encounters unless we just get perfect T16 itemization / more sockets. If we do end up sticking with SW or it becomes to go to talent choice for an encounter. T15 seems unbeatable. It's easily +10% dps give or take several % on varying mastery levels.

This would likely increase as Haste hits the 50% marker allowing the perfect rotation during SW wings. Hammer,CS,Hammer,TV not even a .1sec wasted. and beleive me I have done entire Wings bursts with non stop holy tvs.

The thing that I always go back to when comparing the set bonus that makes me upset is SINGLE target it's TWO GCDs for LESS damage then a Holy TV with Significantly lower and fewer proc chances. DP helps cushion this RNG but again. It's 2 GCD's for the damage that used to come from ONE GCD. Extra GCD allows for something like... idk a Crusader strike which could potentially proc ANOTHER massive SINGLE gcd attack.

T16 is driving me fucking crazy

[Neldarie]

Well ye of course it's way too early to tell right now for sure what will happen. But it's just speculation based on information we're currently fed + knowledge of spec + history that proves itself really. I mean who knows they may brainfart and make dmg range on weapons retarded high. But ye that cloak proc will prolly be pretty crazy on ret seeing how its prolly affected by SoL+AW+we are 2handed melee+if its RPPM shit.

[Revvo]

I just feel like these trinkets are too good to be true. At a reduced percentage maybe, but with normal non-TF at 39%? ehh.

[anaxie]

Well ye of course it's way too early to tell right now for sure what will happen. But it's just speculation based on information we're currently fed + knowledge of spec + history that proves itself really. I mean who knows they may brainfart and make dmg range on weapons retarded high. But ye that cloak proc will prolly be pretty crazy on ret seeing how its prolly affected by SoL+AW+we are 2handed melee+if its RPPM shit.

You are right if it's melee mechanics based the cloak should be affected by SoL good catch. Actually since it's weapon damage which by default is affected then thats a 100% confirm. Durp

When looking at SW <as we should> we need to think of the bigger picture OUTSIDE HoW, Divineshit, and Templars. Flurry of Xuen, Lightning strike, and Censure are CONSIDERABLE damage contributers that are fairly passive that would periodically gain the = 20% damage for an extra 10 seconds. Far more frequent depending on the trinket formula.

Assuming the trinket formula is SoB based and not a DIRECT reduction say 50% reduction only gives us a 1:30 CD. This would #1 make DP have to consistently OUTPERFORM the gained HoW more frequent HoW usage AND it has to outperform the more frequent 20% damage uptime. It's very likely the 2 set will be multiplicative with wings and not additive. Perhaps someone could check? Not that it matters too much would make wings be a 21% damage benefit while the proc is active.

I mean at this point in the game you could think of the Wings being a 90 second with the trinket for +20% damage for 10 seconds. Sadly it's not that easy because thats also 10 seconds of powerhouse attacks.

---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 09:28 AM ----------

I don't even know what I'm saying anymore I'm too stuck on dropping T15 and trying to game T16 as best as possible.

Immerseus, Golden lotus, <maybe sha?>, Dark Shamans, Nazgrim, Garrosh, Paragons <even tho the cleave is useless dps unless it procs Xuen damage per target> are what I would ASSUME to be fights where the tier would excel and DP would be pretty fairly mandatory.

Do others fights have significant adds?

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

[/COLOR]I don't even know what I'm saying anymore I'm too stuck on dropping T15 and trying to game T16 as best as possible.

Immerseus, Golden lotus, <maybe sha?>, Dark Shamans, Nazgrim, Garrosh, Paragons <even tho the cleave is useless dps unless it procs Xuen damage per target> are what I would ASSUME to be fights where the tier would excel and DP would be pretty fairly mandatory.

Do others fights have significant adds?

Regardless of the fights I wouldn't scrap the current tier 4set (I might even go grab gloves in case there's some mentally retarded strong shoulders offset next tier) There's bound to be fights where our aoe range (8yards) isn't going to be efficient compared to our single target (and locks, boomies, spriests is going to be strong for the spread out aoe anyways).

The only thing I'm curious about is how much stronger mastery is going to get when we have 50% uptime on AV, you can't do HoW more than every other GCD regardless of haste (unless you have a trinket proc with 10k+ haste and hero, or primordius with 5 haste stacks) so mastery is going to be really strong. Can't help thinking that strength might be stronger than haste as well next tier looking at some of the trinkets and special effects...

[thegoodrogue]

I just feel like these trinkets are too good to be true. At a reduced percentage maybe, but with normal non-TF at 39%? ehh.

Well supposedly it is only 17% on the normal, which makes a LOT more sense than 40%. 40% with Unbreakable Spirit and 40% off some of healers biggest cooldowns (see tranq/revival) would be undoubtedly game-breaking.

H TF upgraded (>IF<) would be like 20% I imagine, still a sizeable chunk and first CDR trinket that's been useful.

These could be Golden Lotus rewards, who knows and only upgradeable to 18-19 maybe.

Seventeen Percent IIRC Mouse-over the spell for more details, could just be a placeholder.

[Deleted]

I'm not taking those trinkets at all seriously in their current condition. It's a bit like discussing the artistic merits of a block of marble before the sculptor has even picked up their hammer and chisel.

[Elapsed]

Hey guy sorry to divert the convo. I'm a holy pally with a ret offspec and I got a new trinket, problem is I'm trying to figure out which set of 2 would be the best for me.

I have as options
Primordius' Talisman of Rage
Brutal Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault
Gaze of the Twins

Which do you folks think would be the better two to rock. I still don't have any set bonuses yet but I'm due to get 2 piece this week

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Hey guy sorry to divert the convo. I'm a holy pally with a ret offspec and I got a new trinket, problem is I'm trying to figure out which set of 2 would be the best for me.

I have as options
Primordius' Talisman of Rage
Brutal Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault
Gaze of the Twins

Which do you folks think would be the better two to rock. I still don't have any set bonuses yet but I'm due to get 2 piece this week

don't ever use gaze of the twins as ret.

[Elapsed]

don't ever use gaze of the twins as ret.

cool, thanks. It was all I had as an option before. I will DE it later

[Aiya]

Drop Gaze of Twins, it's our worst trinket option in this raiding tier.

[Reghame]

just fascinating! i can't even express how invigorating these trinkets are! the possibilities of customization have just skyrocketed and the amount of different dps builds could arise from this astounding changes! someone help me, i have no idea where to even BEGIN on how to theorize how or what will even work or could even be allowed to happen!

WELL DONE BLIZZARD! IM PROUD OF YOU AFTER ALL THESE YEARS YOU HAVE DONE WHAT I COULD NOT EVEN IMAGINE POSSIBLE!

oh my, i may be having a seizure over how incredible these trinkets and future possibilities can come around now.