Page 1 of 18
1
2
3
11
... LastLast
  1. #1
    Herald of the Titans diddle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    District of Columbia, USA
    Posts
    2,982

    "MMO's should abandon Raiding."

    It's too expensive in terms of resources

    "When WildStar announced that it was scaling its biggest raid down from 40 people to 20, commenter Belladonna did some math. The short version is that every single person who was playing the raid in its 40-person incarnation had personally cost $2,500 based on a handful of reasonable assumptions, which would require fourteen straight years of subscribing for Carbine to even break even on the money that the raid cost to develop. It's sort of a weak investment."

    It's designed for a tiny portion of the people playing the games

    "Why did Turbine stop designing raids for Lord of the Rings Online? Because no one played them. And that isn't a recent development, either. Sure, maybe Lord of the Rings Online is unique in that regard, but it sure doesn't seem like it.

    There are plenty of data to be unpacked in this post when it comes to raiding in World of Warcraft, some of it outdated, but at the height of the game's popularity (Wrath of the Lich King), it still makes a pretty clear argument that raiders made up about 10% of the population: About 1.1 million players were killing the first boss of the highest tier of raids available while the game's overall populace was upwards of 11 million."

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/11...27286446180475

    It's a little dated, and I don't see six reasons, but it does bring up some interesting points. What do you think of this? What would the alternative be if there is any?

    Personally I've always wondered what people that don't raid or PvP do in the game.
    "The problem with a rational mind is that it can rationalize anything."

    "I have an IQ of 145, and a PhD - but when I go to wipe my ass more often than not I will get poop on my hand."

  2. #2
    The Patient Wymarc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    England
    Posts
    232
    If I didnt raid there would be nothing left in the game to interest me enough to play it

  3. #3
    There has to be some form of endgame PvE or PvP content for players to enjoy once they reach max level. That's the whole point of an MMO, experiencing a journey because you are trying to reach the end of that journey, whatever your objective may be.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer NatePsychotic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    3,969
    It's a dated concept but what else could be put in it's place as far as endgame content goes? It's a tricky answer.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsychotic View Post
    It's a dated concept but what else could be put in it's place as far as endgame content goes? It's a tricky answer.
    DayZ, EvE Online and similar games are offering an alternative solution. Or, at the least, the approach to a different solution.
    Don't confuse me with the US-Slant. I'm the EU-Slant. :P

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Bathory's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    3,102
    So essentially, candy crush but you can walk around?
    A story of Firsts from around the world:
    http://thingsihaveneverdone.wordpress.com/

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    DayZ, EvE Online and similar games are offering an alternative solution. Or, at the least, the approach to a different solution.
    And many people are not into those kinds of solutions. I do not enjoy mining minerals to make bigger ships to mine more minerals. And DayZ is yet another minecraft-like game - Lots to do, but no motivation to do any of it.

    I'd be happy if they switched to dungeons full time, keeping them difficult in the process. Small-group content usually doesn't require a lot of coordination like raids do, and can be solved in a night or two if given the effort. Still endgame with an end goal - But able to reach more people as it doesn't require the large play time investment to even start.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  8. #8
    That's probably what is already happening. Mmo's in itself are very expensive to produce. WoW and it's raiding is what people call a "themepark" mmo, where we're offered new content fast enough that we're not bored (or so it says on the box :). On the opposite end of the spectrum, there are projects where the endgame is user-generated, like wars between clans and stuff. Most projects are somewhere in the middle, and that's what most people would expect of the mmo market in the coming years. Talks of WoW nature being unsustainable (for mmo's with less than crazy subscription numbers) have been happening for a long time now.

  9. #9
    Dreadlord Primalthirst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    933
    I think Blizzard bypassed the issue with the combination of LFR and Flex raiding.
    Didn't something like 60% of players who reached max level enter at least 1 raid in Mists?

  10. #10
    Stood in the Fire Rukioish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    California
    Posts
    407
    Does this even take into account that not every player is max level, or will ever reach max level.

  11. #11
    If WoW would have no raiding I'd stop playing that very second.

    Raids are what make an MMO an MMO, at least on the PvE front.

    Comparing WoW to Lord of the Rings Online or Wildstar is just silly. There is a very good reason why those games barely break a couple of hundred thousand subscriptions, or active players.

    And comparing WoW to DayZ or to EVE Online is not even funny. One is a completely different genre, it's like comparing CoD to SC2, and the other EVE Online is not really an MMO as we know it Jim.

    EVE is more like a Space Age Economy Sim than an MMO. It has a very small but very loyal playerbase who enjoy the complexity of its economy, politics and its hostile environments. EVE has no PvE at all. The game is essentially based on maths, pattern recognition, trolling, ganking, griefing, manipulation and politicking. It is an excellent game, but it takes a specific type of player to enjoy it.

    I haven't played EVE in years, yet I still have half a dozen notebooks filled up with economy related notes, spreadsheets upon spreadsheets from my tech/ship trading days and route print outs for hauling contracts. I don't know how many WoW players would enjoy spending 2 hours planning out a 5 hour, fuckton jump route to carry 400$ worth of shit around in game, getting a mini heart attack every time you jump into a system and find local choke full of gankers, just waiting to blow up your expensive as hell ship, take your cargo, and then you can say goodbye to the huge collateral you had to put in for the contract.

    WoW players rage when they get ganked once while herbing.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2014-12-24 at 05:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooneye View Post
    Sexual assault is not always rape.
    *slowclap*
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooneye View Post
    Woman rapes a guy, gives birth to child and has custody of the child.
    I don't see why you should take the child from the woman unless she abuses it.

  12. #12
    Pandaren Monk Eis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Somewhere
    Posts
    1,890
    While those numbers are true, the number of people getting into raiding with the lower difficulty settings probably helps a great deal with the percentage of players participating. Difficulty is the prohibitive factor in raiding, and WoW has come up with some good solutions to that.

    Granted, LFR is ass, but still. Last xpac I would've never seen the inside of any of the raids had LFR not been a thing.

  13. #13
    I would prefer if they abandoned World of Warcraft completely and went back to making RTS games.

  14. #14
    I think that non-WoW MMOs should embrace other end-game models, because WoW itself has a near monopoly on the raiding population. WoW is probably the only MMO that can keep making raiding a central focus of the game. Other MMOs can't afford to do that without being labeled a "WoW-clone."
    When we looked at the relics of the precursors, we saw the height civilization can attain.
    When we looked at their ruins, we marked the danger of that height.
    - Keeper Annals

  15. #15
    Field Marshal reesi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Paradise
    Posts
    90
    What is one to do if there's no raiding? For me... I'm not raiding currently. I've been to caught up in the garrison and other stuff. Someone who doesn't raid or PvP, however, I'm not sure.
    Last edited by reesi; 2014-12-24 at 05:37 AM.

  16. #16
    I only play WoW because of it's raids. The RPG and story elements in 99% of all MMOs (including WoW) are terrible in comparison to SP-RPGs (KotOR, Dragon Age 1, Mass Effect, Witcher).
    The rest are daily chores and grinding...

    Without raids WoW would have been dead years ago.

  17. #17
    the only thing i can think of that i do when im not raiding is soloing old raids.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    I think that non-WoW MMOs should embrace other end-game models, because WoW itself has a near monopoly on the raiding population. WoW is probably the only MMO that can keep making raiding a central focus of the game. Other MMOs can't afford to do that without being labeled a "WoW-clone."
    Pretty much.

    WoW is doing very well with the model it has, keep in mind that WoW has more monthly subs then most MMO's ever sell in their early hype days. It's up to other MMO's to innovate with alternative models if they want some of Blizzards pie.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Koenigstiger View Post

    Without raids WoW would have been dead years ago.
    Without raiding WoW would be dead in days.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooneye View Post
    Sexual assault is not always rape.
    *slowclap*
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooneye View Post
    Woman rapes a guy, gives birth to child and has custody of the child.
    I don't see why you should take the child from the woman unless she abuses it.

  19. #19
    Titan unholytestament's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    From the Darknet
    Posts
    11,324
    I love the logic in this article.

    Wildstar was a failure and I'll talk about it like raiding was the ONLY CAUSE. LoTRO scaled down raids and I'm going to COMPLETELY IGNORE that it has been free to play for years now and that Turbine has some issues going on.

    OBVIOUSLY RAIDING HAS TO GO.

    Click bait is click bait.
    I mourn the loss of a man of true vision and talent. You were my idol, Mr. Giger.
    You gave faces to my dreams and nightmares and sparked my imagination throughout my entire life. You will be missed.

    Hans Rudolf Giger
    2/5/1940 - 5/12/2014

  20. #20
    Bloodsail Admiral Turbotef's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,095
    Quote Originally Posted by Shouryuken View Post
    There has to be some form of endgame PvE or PvP content for players to enjoy once they reach max level. That's the whole point of an MMO, experiencing a journey because you are trying to reach the end of that journey, whatever your objective may be.
    No, that's your reasoning on how an MMO should be. MMOs existed before raiding ya know! Sandbox and themepark styles. WoW got lucky, thus, it way of doing endgame has endured (far longer than it should have IMO, need new ways of doing shit.). I agree with that one poster, dump WoW and go back to RTS style so I can enjoy the WC story without wasting too much time and having more fun doing it (plus no silly faction divide cutting the playerbase in half). :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Koenigstiger View Post
    I only play WoW because of it's raids. The RPG and story elements in 99% of all MMOs (including WoW) are terrible in comparison to SP-RPGs (KotOR, Dragon Age 1, Mass Effect, Witcher).
    The rest are daily chores and grinding...

    Without raids WoW would have been dead years ago.
    I'm quite sure it was the raiding in WoW that brought in 500k+ in those first few months. /sarcasm

    You clearly haven't play FF14 then which nails the story parts and feel like almost like SP FF title before you get to the HM dungeons/raids and other multiplayer bits (you still play and group with others along the way mind you). So there goes that made up percentage of yours.
    Meow meow meow meow, meow meow meow meow, meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow!
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nipsoft/simple

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •