CTC CAP: capped b4 buffs or with them!

[MerinPally]

Yeah, by Ditch I meant "stop using" rather than throw away, I kinda assumed that most tanks do what I do which is keep all their old gear for an entire expansion and then all the trinkets for a bit longer too

Sindragosa 25 trinket came in useful on Yorsahj progress for example.

[Deleted]

The other Pala Tank is doing it right. You want to have CTC cap with Raid buffs/flasks/food etc, having it alone from gear is just a waste. The rest he should gem into Stamina.

For Hagara, a Blood DK is an infinitely better Tank. If you'd bothered to have read up about your class and the fight, your Guild wouldn't have let the Prot Pala Tank. Blood DKs negate the entire Focussed Assault mechanic by just Death Striking half way through the cast. Heals you for the % of the damage taken recently (a lot) and shields you for it depending on your Mastery.

Also, if someone dies midfight and you need to CR them, you should be rebuffing them anyway, and as someone else pointed out, if you're having to worry about deaths midfight, there's clearly a bigger issue than how the Pala is getting his CTC.

[Deleted]

I don't get why people are all "hail DK's" when they're on hagara, that shit hurt at 0% but it was very doable with CDs, both own and external, so doing it now at 25%(?) I don't see all the fuss about saying stuff like "Having you as tank instead of a dk is stupid" Because they might have issues with dps and the dk does more then the paladin or w/e.

[Deleted]

Because if you look at the log, the majority of the Tanks deaths are from Focussed Assault.

Not saying it's at all needed to use a Blood DK, but if your Paladin Tank is dying from Focussed Assaults and you have a Blood DK available, you might as well take him.

[Soisoisoi]

I don't get why people are all "hail DK's" when they're on hagara, that shit hurt at 0% but it was very doable with CDs, both own and external, so doing it now at 25%(?) I don't see all the fuss about saying stuff like "Having you as tank instead of a dk is stupid" Because they might have issues with dps and the dk does more then the paladin or w/e.

At 25% nerf against an IL400 Prot Pally (my guildy, CTC>Stam), Focused Assault without a cooldown WILL kill him unless he gets a lot of healing.

The same as above but with my Death Knight's off-spec at about 390 item level, not mastery stacking (don't ask, still had less HP than the Prot Pally). The only healing I received during was Lifebloom ticks. Without using cooldowns, Death Striking ONCE. Survived wondering if she had hit me yet.

[Yoshimiko]

Solo tank on DK, it makes the fight WORLDS easier.
Our group has solid healers, but assuming you don't - tell teh DK to generate threat in the very first phase 1 - as much as possible. After that, start setting it up so he ALWAYS has 2x death strikes ready for her fury attack. With 402 gear, I found I could survive without a healer through most of that fight - only needing about 40k worth of healing on each phase 1. We ended up 1 healing, with a spriest & boomkin for tranquility and Divine Hymn when needed.

This was at the 10% nerf, I have no idea how easy the fight would be now, though.

---------- Post added 2012-07-11 at 01:50 PM ----------

I don't get why people are all "hail DK's" when they're on hagara, that shit hurt at 0% but it was very doable with CDs, both own and external, so doing it now at 25%(?) I don't see all the fuss about saying stuff like "Having you as tank instead of a dk is stupid" Because they might have issues with dps and the dk does more then the paladin or w/e.

I have a video somewhere or another of me soloing an entire phase 1 of Hagara, entire group died and left me with 1 crystal at 5% health. I survived until the lightning phase. DKs are completely overpowered on that fight, infact I'd say dks are overpowered in the entire instance - but that's for another day. I can hunt it down if you want - it's on a buddies stream page.

[Deleted]

At 25% nerf against an IL400 Prot Pally (my guildy, CTC>Stam), Focused Assault without a cooldown WILL kill him unless he gets a lot of healing.

The same as above but with my Death Knight's off-spec at about 390 item level, not mastery stacking (don't ask, still had less HP than the Prot Pally). The only healing I received during was Lifebloom ticks. Without using cooldowns, Death Striking ONCE. Survived wondering if she had hit me yet.

Okay, tell your healers to step up their game? I often heal a pally tank w/o cooldowns on hagara during focused assault =/

[Plwmar]

Since I saw that this thread was made in my honor (thx bud :P ) thanks all for the replies I will proceed then to explaining my current reforges *ahem cough cough* I am currently unbuffed @86.36% from ctc cap...add some of the normal buffs (motw,horn of winter,mastery food [always :P ] mastery elixir and resistance elixir (I kind prefer that over the stam flask which is more useful in certain fights eg haggara hc and warmaster hc) and where am I?91.12% off of ctc cap...switch one of my stam trinkets with fire of the deeps...see what I did there?also there is the choice of the bh trinket (eg yorsahj for shadow dmg mitigation or zonnozz) and extra stamina in the rarest case where the healers actually have a hard time keeping me up.So with 1 trinket you still get capped either way.so why not go for hit/exp cap (ok 8.06% hit but I calculated EVERY SINGLE REFORGE it was the closest I could get to a hit cap with minimal loss on cap side) but we are talking about 10 man hc raids.25% nerf yeah?not 0% nerf.neither 25man raids.tank dps counts either way you spin it.since our healers are good I rarely even switch to ctc trinkets anymore.I saw Merinpally the thread feel free to moist :P Thank you very much for all the posts so far (although the soulshitter vortex still is a bit necessary for the extra stam the mastery proc can very well go sit in the fire tyvm :P ).I have done my research so far and I have the gear alternatives to keep ctc cap in some fights.And the good thing is you have to keep researching all the time news never stop you never know what you may find out with different reforges Thanks for the support everyone I really hoped I was doing it right.

[Wesco]

Is clearly tanking/healing issue, was tanking that hagara assault with no CD prenerf on 10 men.
CTC cap or not, you will be fine just need to step up on healing or tank using his CD smart.

Like right before the attack a rshaman can spirit link. since link aint much useful on 10 men.

right now on COMBAT TABLE COVERAGE

102.4% is your goal with buff + food. (flask too but I aint sacrifice a hp flask for mastery so easy to get capped at this tier )
Nothing more need to be said, I don't care if someone dies or not.

Also Hagara you can use whatever setup you want these days, with 25% nerf this whole instance is a joker -

[Soisoisoi]

Okay, tell your healers to step up their game? I often heal a pally tank w/o cooldowns on hagara during focused assault =/

Missing the point, let me make it a bit more simple:
Paladin requires heals
Death Knight doesn't require ANY outside heals, barely even their own.

[snip]Thanks for the support everyone I really hoped I was doing it right.

Assuming the Pally in your sig, you are 11.28% off of the CTC cap WITH buffs. The stacking dodge trinket doesn't give you that much (4.07% ctc), and proccs aren't always active, so you're kinda not doing it right. If you are going for the CTC cap you should do it so it's always at that, not with proccs.

[Deleted]

Missing the point, let me make it a bit more simple:
Paladin requires heals
Death Knight doesn't require ANY outside heals, barely even their own.

I understand fully, but saying a RL or the raid is wrong because of choosing a paladin over a DK is not something you can say without all the information.

[Soisoisoi]

I understand fully, but saying a RL or the raid is wrong because of choosing a paladin over a DK is not something you can say without all the information.

Didn't say they were wrong, just making it harder on themselves.

[Wesco]

I understand fully, but saying a RL or the raid is wrong because of choosing a paladin over a DK is not something you can say without all the information.

Nothing is hard in this game atm, is just focus and do what you are suppose to do and do it right.
I would prefer paladin over dk any day for tanking tough dk too weak.

[Soisoisoi]

I would prefer paladin over dk any day for tanking tough dk too weak.

Don't know if serious...?

No, really... did you read this rest of this thread, or have you even played a Blood DK? I can only assume you've been playing completely wrong if you have. :|

[MerinPally]

Nothing is hard in this game atm, is just focus and do what you are suppose to do and do it right.
I would prefer paladin over dk any day for tanking tough dk too weak.

Try using death strike and stop spamming Heart Strike or Plague Strike and you'll see wonders. However, paladins are still damn good, to claim they're either particularly stronger or weaker than DK's would be to be wrong.

The last time anyone was as wrong as you have been, Wesco, was when Neville Chamberlaine got off that plane and waved the paper in the air and said that england would not enter into a war with Germany. All the tanks at the moment are fine, sure the nerf has made it more equal (with no nerf it was favoured to DK's but due to the nerf we may as well all be equal - healers will still have their favourites as all tanks take damage in differnt ways and healers adapt to it and get used to it).

[Plwmar]

Assuming the Pally in your sig, you are 11.28% off of the CTC cap WITH buffs. The stacking dodge trinket doesn't give you that much (4.07% ctc), and proccs aren't always active, so you're kinda not doing it right. If you are going for the CTC cap you should do it so it's always at that, not with proccs.

Well I dont use Fire of the deeps on my armory as it is right now.And not planning in using the hc dodge trinket anywhere in the near future (although I have it).So using the trinket along with a mastery elixir,food and the rest of the buffs it gets me to that cap.

[MorphexEU]

CTC is worthless on hagara
your friend is doing it right.
gem more stam so you're at 102.4 WITH buffs

This, end of story.

Uhh... back to the topic at hand.

I'm guessing the whole "warriors/paladins are bad tanks for DS" basically came from the bleeding edge progression race, yes? That's the only place that specific classes should (emphasis on 'should') matter.

Yeah, guilds used 1 druid / dk + 1 paladin. Because warriors was rather "bad" in the bleeding progression, and paladins couldn't tank it all. DK's and druids where superior due to their magic reduction, healthpool and armor amount (unavoidable damage hinting). Paladins was choosen over warriros due to their raid utility and the fact that they had more HP.

Now you can tank DS 25man HC with any tank, even in just normal 25man DS gear.

And hey guys!

[MerinPally]

And hey guys!

I remember you.

Could it be?

Yes... in the mountains...

[Nelrock]

Missing the point, let me make it a bit more simple:
Paladin requires heals
Death Knight doesn't require ANY outside heals, barely even their own.

Uuuuh. I don't. Hardly take any damage from FA...could easily WoG it back if needed.

[MerinPally]

Uuuuh. I don't. Hardly take any damage from FA...could easily WoG it back if needed.

Stop doing normal modes then where you can't break it on movement. No non DK/druid can stand there taking a Focused Assault with no heals on heroic (which is what this discussion is about) and use merely a WoG to survive without using a major cooldown.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/q...?s=3128&e=3534

Is the last kill I was at and I took 2.5 million damage from Focused Assault, and I know I got low on some of those assaults. Looking at the graph, it appears I probably took.. 13? Maybe 14 Focused assaults? Call it 14 and it means I took about 180k damage per Focused Assault. Keep in mind that those numbers are skewed as some of those were with Divine Protection so without that it would be 225k health per assault. It was not up for every assault so I'll go for a happy middle ground of 210k. Now, keep in mind there other damage sources (ice lances maybe) and sure, you can JUST about survive this.

But what I haven't included in the above is that I had the -10% damage taken from a shaman healer and the absorbs from a priest. So without the absorbs from that priest we're looking at about 230k. Now take away the 10% damage and it's 253k.

So yeah, you may "just" be able to survive this without heals or anything (excluding cooldowns because they aren't always around) but... why would you risk it? Seriously why would you?

This is all with the 30% nerf, back when this whole "DK and bears good, paladins bad on hagara" thing was relevent, the numbers would have been worse. Sure we can do it easily now it's 30% nerf and we could do it before but it was a lot harder. The discussion you quoted a part of, was talking about BEFORE the absolute shitload of nerfs.

Please don't mix up someone talking about the past and your experience of the present. Things change. And even now it's risky, but that situation would never even arise as noones healers are shit enough for them to alllow the tank to go 5 seconds with nothing on him whatsoever.