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  1. #181
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Well one of the reasons people are feeling like dots are falling off faster is because they are, previously we had to refresh devouring plague every 24 seconds, now we refresh pain every 18 seconds instead, so it is 25% more often that we're refreshing our secondary dot.

    Also, some random and unrelated observations:
    - affliction feels a Lot like shadow pre-patch, where Malefic Grasp is Mind Flay, Haunt is Mind Blast (use it when you get a shadow orb pro... I mean a Soul Orb proc... I mean a Soul Shard proc), Agony is DP, Corruption is Pain, Unstable Affliction is Vampiric Touch - except without Evangelism or Shadow Empowerment to maintain. So it's pretty fun (I recommend Sacrificing your pet so you feel even more shadowy, and you have stronger dots)
    - Yesterday a ret paladin did over 150k dps during his burst cooldowns on Ultraxion, so that was pretty nuts! ^^
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  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    Well one of the reasons people are feeling like dots are falling off faster is because they are, previously we had to refresh devouring plague every 24 seconds, now we refresh pain every 18 seconds instead, so it is 25% more often that we're refreshing our secondary dot.
    Yes, and you can really feel it. Even though we have less stuff to care about now, they frequently occur at the same time and you have to make better decisions. You have to think ahead and plan much more than before because if two DoTs are about to fall off, you have to refresh one a bit earlier so you can get a perfect refresh on the second one.

    Pre-patch we were often not put in this position. At any given time, you had one thing to manage, sometimes two (Mind Blast-VT). Now it is often two things, sometimes three.

    What I do not like though is how awkward our rotation feels. It doesn't seem to have any flow. Don't know how to explain it but that's how I feel.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    Well one of the reasons people are feeling like dots are falling off faster is because they are, previously we had to refresh devouring plague every 24 seconds, now we refresh pain every 18 seconds instead, so it is 25% more often that we're refreshing our secondary dot.

    Also, some random and unrelated observations:
    - affliction feels a Lot like shadow pre-patch, where Malefic Grasp is Mind Flay, Haunt is Mind Blast (use it when you get a shadow orb pro... I mean a Soul Orb proc... I mean a Soul Shard proc), Agony is DP, Corruption is Pain, Unstable Affliction is Vampiric Touch - except without Evangelism or Shadow Empowerment to maintain. So it's pretty fun (I recommend Sacrificing your pet so you feel even more shadowy, and you have stronger dots)
    - Yesterday a ret paladin did over 150k dps during his burst cooldowns on Ultraxion, so that was pretty nuts! ^^
    I'm really lovign affliction. Its got a lot of what I liked about shadow plus a lot of utility talents and skills.

  4. #184
    Mechagnome Lufi's Avatar
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    I'm really liking the feel of all the instants as shadow it is really awesome for me, it's a rotation that doesn't get boring. Affliction is also quite nice. These are probably my 2 favorite specs now and I hope that the talent choice remain the same for shadow (FDCL and DI). Oh and they finally tied VT with a decent mana regen so no more shadowfiends in the wrong time just for mana or stopping for a dispersion for mana which is really awesome I just hope it doesn't get nerfed for helping shadowplay too much since mana seem to be plenty for off-healing.
    Last edited by Lufi; 2012-08-30 at 08:57 AM.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    From Darkness, Comes Light
    Not 100% sure as I have not tried this actual talent, but the instant cast would still trigger the GCD wouldnt it?
    If so at current level 85 we spend 2 GCD for 2 Mind Spikes, which otherwize would be a Mind Flay.
    So at level 85 on my priest, MF hits for 30.750, MS for 19.200 * 150% * 2 = 57.600 or a net gain of 26.850
    VT ticks 6 times per 15 seconds (roughly) or 24 times per minute at 15% = 3.6 per minute (a litle more actually) lets say 4 for easy accounting.
    This means we gain 4 / 2 * 26.850 = 53.700 per minute / 60 = 895 DPS

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    Shadow Word: Insanity
    By the same means Insanity, for me, hits for 37.850.
    Yes consuming 1 SW:P, 5.370 damage. Effective gain 32.480 * 3 times per minute (a bit more actually) = 97440 damage / 60 = 1.624 DPS
    For 2 consumed SW:P, 10.740 damage. 27.110 * 3 per minute = 81.330 / 60 = 1.355 DPS

    or am I doing something wrong?

  6. #186
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by namliam View Post
    Not 100% sure as I have not tried this actual talent, but the instant cast would still trigger the GCD wouldnt it?
    If so at current level 85 we spend 2 GCD for 2 Mind Spikes, which otherwize would be a Mind Flay.
    So at level 85 on my priest, MF hits for 30.750, MS for 19.200 * 150% * 2 = 57.600 or a net gain of 26.850
    VT ticks 6 times per 15 seconds (roughly) or 24 times per minute at 15% = 3.6 per minute (a litle more actually) lets say 4 for easy accounting.
    This means we gain 4 / 2 * 26.850 = 53.700 per minute / 60 = 895 DPS


    By the same means Insanity, for me, hits for 37.850.
    Yes consuming 1 SW:P, 5.370 damage. Effective gain 32.480 * 3 times per minute (a bit more actually) = 97440 damage / 60 = 1.624 DPS
    For 2 consumed SW:P, 10.740 damage. 27.110 * 3 per minute = 81.330 / 60 = 1.355 DPS

    or am I doing something wrong?
    Looks about right, but your using level 85 numbers and my guide is written for level 90 - so our numbers shouldn't match

    That said, I need to redo that section because the values are out of date anyways now. I'm still expecting an Insanity redesign or at least a buff to bring it into relevance - the problem with it right now is that even if it dealt more damage, it probably wouldn't be useful just because of its design, which is annoying.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-08-31 at 08:10 PM.
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  7. #187
    Well right now - to me - is right now more important than what may be or will be at level 90. Still farming silly shit at DS and FL, dont want to look like the second rate priest that I really am behind all the number crunching.

    Even at 35% nerf and the 20% nerf of raggy I am gonna be looking how to do my best dps NOW, rather than later.
    However the world will look in 4 weeks time after 5 hotfixed, 2 patches, 3 updates and a new xpack, no one will know and to be honest I dont even care to speculate.
    What will be, will be....

    Course things may change as well if you use the Glyph of Mind Spike on the back of FDCL, but yeah streaght up I would say - in a semi perfect world - there is about 1k dps difference between the two talents which is not "nothing".

  8. #188
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by namliam View Post
    Well right now - to me - is right now more important than what may be or will be at level 90. Still farming silly shit at DS and FL, dont want to look like the second rate priest that I really am behind all the number crunching.

    Even at 35% nerf and the 20% nerf of raggy I am gonna be looking how to do my best dps NOW, rather than later.
    However the world will look in 4 weeks time after 5 hotfixed, 2 patches, 3 updates and a new xpack, no one will know and to be honest I dont even care to speculate.
    What will be, will be....
    I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be concerned with how to do your best dps now, and focusing on the current content - but this isn't a guide for Cataclysm post-5.0. It's a guide for level 90 in Mists of Pandaria

    Someone has to speculate on what will be best at level 90, even if changes are going to occur that will invalidate my older sections (and then I'll rewrite them as the time comes). You're welcome to write a guide for level 85 post-5.0 if you like though.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-09-01 at 12:54 AM.
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  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by namliam View Post
    Not 100% sure as I have not tried this actual talent, but the instant cast would still trigger the GCD wouldnt it?
    If so at current level 85 we spend 2 GCD for 2 Mind Spikes, which otherwize would be a Mind Flay.
    So at level 85 on my priest, MF hits for 30.750, MS for 19.200 * 150% * 2 = 57.600 or a net gain of 26.850
    VT ticks 6 times per 15 seconds (roughly) or 24 times per minute at 15% = 3.6 per minute (a litle more actually) lets say 4 for easy accounting.
    This means we gain 4 / 2 * 26.850 = 53.700 per minute / 60 = 895 DPS


    By the same means Insanity, for me, hits for 37.850.
    Yes consuming 1 SW:P, 5.370 damage. Effective gain 32.480 * 3 times per minute (a bit more actually) = 97440 damage / 60 = 1.624 DPS
    For 2 consumed SW:P, 10.740 damage. 27.110 * 3 per minute = 81.330 / 60 = 1.355 DPS

    or am I doing something wrong?
    7 ticks per cast of VT for me (3051+ haste), average of 9 if you count in mastery. You don't count in the possible mastery proc of the last SWP tick either. I also don't generally see it as that simple, you did count the alternative gcd value of FDCL procs, but you didn't even touch the alternative gcd values of SWI. It does take a global, more than that, you refresh SWP more often with it, I don't see a correct way of calculating such matter without simming it really. And you know what sims say about it.
    The real issue with FDCL is the DTR proc. Slash sigh, I expected them to fix this, it's been up for all of beta.
    Last edited by Celentes; 2012-09-01 at 05:22 AM.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celentes View Post
    7 ticks per cast of VT for me (3051+ haste), average of 9 if you count in mastery. You also count in the alternative value of MS gcd, but do not do so for SWI (you really could be mindflaying there too).
    The real issue with FDCL is the DTR proc. Slash sigh, I expected them to fix this, it's been up for all of beta.
    I'd venture a guess they don't care since it is a nonissue at level 90.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Chimaera View Post
    I'd venture a guess they don't care since it is a nonissue at level 90.
    Bah, sorry for the habit of editing posts after >.<

    They did realize it's gonna be up for about a month before mop hits. They could at the very least turn off DTR effect for mind spike completely.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Celentes View Post
    7 ticks per cast of VT for me.
    Yes my priest is far from BIS, yes I neglected mastery for both calculations but I believe mastery also works on both situations adding DPS to both more or less equally.

    Yes it is far from actual simming offcourse napkin math can only get one so far... still simply by rounding from 3.6 to 4 for FDCL
    and assuming you are clipping 2 SWP ticks, you gain 500 dps...

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by namliam View Post
    Yes my priest is far from BIS, yes I neglected mastery for both calculations but I believe mastery also works on both situations adding DPS to both more or less equally.

    Yes it is far from actual simming offcourse napkin math can only get one so far... still simply by rounding from 3.6 to 4 for FDCL
    and assuming you are clipping 2 SWP ticks, you gain 500 dps...
    Nope. Your FDCL benefit calculation is about 1.5x times worse than it actually is, it scales directly with mastery and haste both. You don't need bis to get VT +2 ticks, its around 2450 haste at the moment, although you do need more than that to get the full VT duration back to 15 seconds. SWI does not scale with mastery, it counterscales with it, albeit quite minorly; also, again, you did not even mention the alternative gcd value of SWI + refreshing SWP earlier.

    So in your math, you don't add enough benefit to the one and don't withdraw nearly enough from the other. It's like making a little mistake in favor of one and a big mistake in disfavor of the other. It doesn't work like that.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-01 at 05:23 PM ----------

    Although, to be thorough, you did not include the benefit of mastery for mindflay either. But that doesn't do any better for the whole logic.
    There's also an untouched point of SWI being clunky due to the overlapping timings with MB cd and VT refresh, so it's a sort of masochism anyway.
    Last edited by Celentes; 2012-09-01 at 10:30 AM.

  14. #194
    I would say it is nearly imposible to refresh SWP earlier than you would normally?
    You would refresh SWP just before the last tick, you would use SWI at the same time (losing the GCD) and re-adding the SWP only after that.

    Hmz, I can see the neglecting of the MF on SWI... That is surely true...
    If we are accounting for this it would certainly reduce the gain of SWI significantly, adding in the strickt requirement for SWI to work properly and the far more flexible nature of FDCL, add in the MS glyph for 3 instant casts in a row.... feeling more love now for FDCL :P

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by namliam View Post
    I would say it is nearly imposible to refresh SWP earlier than you would normally?
    You would refresh SWP just before the last tick, you would use SWI at the same time (losing the GCD) and re-adding the SWP only after that.

    Hmz, I can see the neglecting of the MF on SWI... That is surely true...
    If we are accounting for this it would certainly reduce the gain of SWI significantly, adding in the strickt requirement for SWI to work properly and the far more flexible nature of FDCL, add in the MS glyph for 3 instant casts in a row.... feeling more love now for FDCL :P
    I withdraw the extra gcd for reapplication argument, you're right, it'll go off just like normal.
    FDCL is generally a better shaped talent. They should redesign SWI, its current state is lacking, and not solely due to damage.

  16. #196
    Forgive me if I'm asking the obvious, but sometimes I need to rephrase something in my own words to understand and remember it, since English is not my first language. So let me ask this:

    (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    you want to refresh SW: Pain or VT before DP if it would fall off during the GCD.
    So that means that refreshing SWP and VT > 3orb DP, since both DoTs falling off (and reapplying them later rather than refreshing before last tick) would be worse dps loss than delaying DP?
    And what if BOTH DoTs need to be refreshed - DP will have to wait for 2 GCDs?

    (2)
    Quote Originally Posted by Aica
    Of course, if MB/SW: Death cooldowns are going to expire at the same time the dots expire, then DP>MB>SW: Death>SW: Pain>VT.
    On the other hand, MB and SWD cannot wait and must be used ASAP regardless of DoTs falling off at the same time? And in such moment the 1. rule above is no longer valid and DP comes as first priority?
    Last edited by solshine2510; 2012-09-10 at 03:05 PM.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Celentes View Post
    They did realize it's gonna be up for about a month before mop hits. They could at the very least turn off DTR effect for mind spike completely.
    Honestly, they are probably pretty happy with the way DTR works currently. They always like it for people to move to the next gears pretty quickly when new content comes out and the few times where using something old past it's intended use it gets nerfed pretty quickly. So getting a proc on MS and wiping your dots is probably viewed as added incentive. Purely my own speculation of course

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by solshine2510 View Post
    Forgive me if I'm asking the obvious, but sometimes I need to rephrase something in my own words to understand and remember it, since English is not my first language. So let me ask this:

    (1)

    So that means that refreshing SWP and VT > 3orb DP, since both DoTs falling off (and reapplying them later rather than refreshing before last tick) would be worse dps loss than delaying DP?
    And what if BOTH DoTs need to be refreshed - DP will have to wait for 2 GCDs?

    (2)

    On the other hand, MB and SWD cannot wait and must be used ASAP regardless of DoTs falling off at the same time? And in such moment the 1. rule above is no longer valid and DP comes as first priority?
    (1)

    Delaying DP is not a DPS loss until you've lost time on either the MB or SWD CD. Thus casting other stuff above DP as long as you don't lose time on either of those CDs isn't a dps decrease.

    (2)

    If you lose time on either the CDs of MB or SWD you're losing dps. However if you have 3 orbs already (and you've let yourself get to this situation) then not casting DP first would be a bigger DPS loss than the loss incurred by delaying those two cds.

  19. #199
    Thank you for the clarification above!

    I've been wondering two things myself:

    1: If MB and SWD are off cd (below 20% ofc), You did use the first SWD.. is MB or the 2nd SWD prio? (considering you're not full on orbs etc)

    2: Is to cast Mind spike x2 (with glyph and FDCL) a big dps loss before a MB?

    3: Same as 2, dot's are running. MB is still on a 2sec cd and you have 2 FDCL procs..

  20. #200
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainxinator View Post
    Thank you for the clarification above!

    I've been wondering two things myself:

    1: If MB and SWD are off cd (below 20% ofc), You did use the first SWD.. is MB or the 2nd SWD prio? (considering you're not full on orbs etc)

    2: Is to cast Mind spike x2 (with glyph and FDCL) a big dps loss before a MB?

    3: Same as 2, dot's are running. MB is still on a 2sec cd and you have 2 FDCL procs..
    1. In theory, yes, it's a very minor DPS loss to use the 2nd death before MB assuming MB is off CD. In practice the difference it'll make will be nearly negligible.

    2. If you are casting the 2 Insta-MS while MB is off CD, yes it's a DPS loss. 2 GCD + Mind Blast cast time = ~2.7s, casting MB = ~1.15s (Haste level dependant).

    In regards to 3. - It's a DPS gain to have MB on insta-cast compared to cast time. You save time and can continue the rest of your rotation faster than normal, which is why Glyph of MS is a DPS increase.

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