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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    1. In theory, yes, it's a very minor DPS loss to use the 2nd death before MB assuming MB is off CD. In practice the difference it'll make will be nearly negligible.

    2. If you are casting the 2 Insta-MS while MB is off CD, yes it's a DPS loss. 2 GCD + Mind Blast cast time = ~2.7s, casting MB = ~1.15s (Haste level dependant).

    In regards to 3. - It's a DPS gain to have MB on insta-cast compared to cast time. You save time and can continue the rest of your rotation faster than normal, which is why Glyph of MS is a DPS increase.
    Isnt that only if you decide to go FDCL?

  2. #202
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywardenn View Post
    Isnt that only if you decide to go FDCL?
    If you are only interested in the best DPS possible, FDCL is currently the best option to go in this tier. Even with Dragonwrath 'bugs' (though logically the 'bug' makes sense) FDCL performs better than Mindbender. Even if the difference is marginal, elitists (and those DPS Whores among us) will take it even if they don't particularly like the mechanic.

    Conversely, if you choose to run with whatever suits your playstyle and you happen to hate FDCL, Glyph of Mind Spike will still be a DPS increase on fights which require you to Spike at any point on, for whatever reason; be it to quickly nuke an add or to remove DoTs off the target (as Insanity a) only removes Pain and b) has a timer requirement).
    For all the times where Spiking won't be necessary the only glyph we have which will increase DPS is Glyph of Mind Flay. Glyph of Inner Sanctum should be used in place of Glyph of Mind Spike if there is no spiking required in the encounter and you aren't running FDCL.

  3. #203
    I dont know how about you but i prefer FDCL and Shadowfiend rather than ONLY Mindbender and yea on bosses like spine Mindbender + PI only.

  4. #204
    Stickied since we are in the home stretch to MoP.

  5. #205
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Listek View Post
    I dont know how about you but i prefer FDCL and Shadowfiend rather than ONLY Mindbender and yea on bosses like spine Mindbender + PI only.
    On Spine ToF+Mindbender is better. The 15% increased damage is huge.

  6. #206
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    1. In theory, yes, it's a very minor DPS loss to use the 2nd death before MB assuming MB is off CD. In practice the difference it'll make will be nearly negligible.
    Delaying the second SW:D (just like delaying the first SW:D) has the same result as delaying Mind Blast. Both delay Orb production by the same percentage of time. Since SW:D does more damage than Mind Blast, and Orb production time is lost regardless, the best priority is still SW:D back-to-back, then MB.
    {[( )]}

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    Delaying the second SW (just like delaying the first SW) has the same result as delaying Mind Blast. Both delay Orb production by the same percentage of time. Since SW does more damage than Mind Blast, and Orb production time is lost regardless, the best priority is still SW back-to-back, then MB.
    Actually it would be better to MB and then sw:d twice, since you can queue up the first sw:d during the cast time of the MB.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    If you are only interested in the best DPS possible, FDCL is currently the best option to go in this tier. Even with Dragonwrath 'bugs' (though logically the 'bug' makes sense) FDCL performs better than Mindbender. Even if the difference is marginal, elitists (and those DPS Whores among us) will take it even if they don't particularly like the mechanic.

    Conversely, if you choose to run with whatever suits your playstyle and you happen to hate FDCL, Glyph of Mind Spike will still be a DPS increase on fights which require you to Spike at any point on, for whatever reason; be it to quickly nuke an add or to remove DoTs off the target (as Insanity a) only removes Pain and b) has a timer requirement).
    For all the times where Spiking won't be necessary the only glyph we have which will increase DPS is Glyph of Mind Flay. Glyph of Inner Sanctum should be used in place of Glyph of Mind Spike if there is no spiking required in the encounter and you aren't running FDCL.
    Weird, thought that Mindbender was simming as the best option at that tier. Must have missed that.

  9. #209
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Actually it would be better to MB and then sw:d twice, since you can queue up the first sw:d during the cast time of the MB.
    It's possible. SW:D does 10% more damage than MB, though.
    {[( )]}

  10. #210
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywardenn View Post
    Weird, thought that Mindbender was simming as the best option at that tier. Must have missed that.
    Mindbender and FDCL sim very similar numbers (FDCL very, very slightly ahead) but when you then add Shadowfiend's DPS (even if it's minor due to it being a 3min CD) FDCL pulls ahead single target, and the proc rate pulls FDCL ahead in multi-target situations anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    It's possible. SW:D does 10% more damage than MB, though.
    Are you talking about 5.0.4 or on beta?

    Don't forget that on live our 2set buffs SW:D damage by 55%. This will change come MoP.

  11. #211
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Mindbender and FDCL sim very similar numbers (FDCL very, very slightly ahead) but when you then add Shadowfiend's DPS (even if it's minor due to it being a 3min CD) FDCL pulls ahead single target, and the proc rate pulls FDCL ahead in multi-target situations anyway.
    The sims with FDCL include Shadowfiend. FDCL pulls ahead fairly significantly on multi-target fights, like you said, but you can't add Shadowfiend's DPS to a sim that already includes Shadowfiend's DPS.



    Are you talking about 5.0.4 or on beta?

    Don't forget that on live our 2set buffs SW:D damage by 55%. This will change come MoP.
    I'm talking about level 90. It's even better right now.
    {[( )]}

  12. #212
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    The sims with FDCL include Shadowfiend. FDCL pulls ahead fairly significantly on multi-target fights, like you said, but you can't add Shadowfiend's DPS to a sim that already includes Shadowfiend's DPS.
    My sims don't include Shadowfiend, AFAIK.




    I'm talking about level 90. It's even better right now.
    Fair enough, was just asking.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Stickied since we are in the home stretch to MoP.
    Yay! Thanks Queen of Corgi's! ^^

    I better do a big update soon.
    Youtube ~ Yvaelle ~ Twitter

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    It's possible. SW:D does 10% more damage than MB, though.
    Actually thinking about it more, since you would follow-up a sw:dx2 + MB with a DP it probably doesn't matter too much which way you do it (since they have the same CD).

    So it would be either:

    sw:d, wait on GCD, sw:d, wait on CD, Cast MB, during cast time cast DP.

    or:

    Cast MB, during cast time cast sw:d, wait on GCD, cast sw:d, wait on GCD, Cast DP.

    Either way you would have to wait on two GCD's. So it's not a big difference looking at it that way.

  15. #215
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    My sims don't include Shadowfiend, AFAIK.
    Odd, but alright then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Actually thinking about it more, since you would follow-up a sw:dx2 + MB with a DP it probably doesn't matter too much which way you do it (since they have the same CD).

    So it would be either:

    sw:d, wait on GCD, sw:d, wait on CD, Cast MB, during cast time cast DP.

    or:

    Cast MB, during cast time cast sw:d, wait on GCD, cast sw:d, wait on GCD, Cast DP.

    Either way you would have to wait on two GCD's. So it's not a big difference looking at it that way.
    SW:Dx2 only produces one Orb, unfortunately, but that's beside the point. Since SW:Dx2 has the same cooldown as MB, and both produce orbs at the same rate, delaying SW:D (which does more damage per cast) in favor of MB will be a minor dps loss. Like you said, it's not a big difference.
    {[( )]}

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    SW:Dx2 only produces one Orb, unfortunately, but that's beside the point. Since SW:Dx2 has the same cooldown as MB, and both produce orbs at the same rate, delaying SW:D (which does more damage per cast) in favor of MB will be a minor dps loss. Like you said, it's not a big difference.
    Oh blerg... I think I am going to go take a nap now...

  17. #217
    Shadow Word: Insanity should now deal 2667 to 2815 damage plus 290% of spellpower at level-85 (up from 2235 to 2359 plus 243% of spellpower).

    Mindbender damage has been increased by 20%. It now does 80% as much damage per hit as Shadowfiend (up from 66.7%).
    Has anyone crunched the new numbers?

  18. #218
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    I guess it's too early to have the numbers yet, but a quick guess is that Mindbender should be the best choice for PvE, since it was almost equal with FLCD

    SW:I got a quite significant boost but i still think that the awkwardness of the mechanic would prevent it from being a viable choice.
    Last edited by Keosen; 2012-09-19 at 06:51 AM.

  19. #219
    I agree on the awkwardness of insanity, however a 2+ multi-dot scenario would lean heavily in Insanity's favor.

  20. #220
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Done a quick number crunch for the talents based on the SP values and DPET values (apart from where they've had to be adjusted, of course) given at the beginning of the thread.

    Mindbender: 157320*1.2 (20% buff) = 3146.4 DPS
    FDCL : 2485.68 + 895 from Shadowfiend = 3380.74 DPS
    Insanity: 2271 + (21057*2.9) = 63806.3 DPET, ~ 3544.8 DPS. Adding on Shadowfiend's 895 DPS, you get 4439.8 DPS. <- Feels very very wrong. I'm not accounting for the missed ticks but even then, this number seems high.

    My maths is either horribly wrong or Blizzard have just massively buffed Insanity, I'm personally hoping it's the former. Please can someone double check my maths/do their own maths and please please please prove me wrong over Insanity.
    Last edited by Cycobi; 2012-09-19 at 04:02 PM.

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