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  1. #341
    I think you're completely wrong, but it could be me. More feedback pls.

  2. #342
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    SW:P's DPET is so low on your sim because the sim is casting it so often: I'd guess you have low or heavy movement enabled. You should be choosing SW:P over VT until mana becomes a problem.
    Last edited by Aica; 2012-10-24 at 11:41 PM.
    {[( )]}

  3. #343
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarc View Post
    I think you're completely wrong, but it could be me. More feedback pls.
    Well look at it from a general gear standpoint. Let's say you have:

    476 ilvl
    Raid Finder
    Intellect
    Stamina
    Spirit

    Haste

    Then you recieve:

    489 ilvl
    Normal
    Intellect
    Stamina

    Crit
    Mastery

    Even though the 489 ilvl piece is the worst itemization we can get and the 476 ilvl piece is the best itemization we can get the 489 ilvl piece will be an upgrade because of the higher allotment of stats, most prominently Intellect. In this case you could stick with the lower 476 ilvl piece because OH EM GEE Haste or use the 489 ilvl upgrade even though the secondary stats blow Shadow Orbs.

    I've been generalizing here and if you're under Haste cap by a relatively narrow margin Quick in Yellows isn't a bad choice.

  4. #344
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    Well look at it from a general gear standpoint. Let's say you have:

    476 ilvl
    Raid Finder
    Intellect
    Stamina
    Spirit

    Haste

    Then you recieve:

    489 ilvl
    Normal
    Intellect
    Stamina

    Crit
    Mastery

    Even though the 489 ilvl piece is the worst itemization we can get and the 476 ilvl piece is the best itemization we can get the 489 ilvl piece will be an upgrade because of the higher allotment of stats, most prominently Intellect. In this case you could stick with the lower 476 ilvl piece because OH EM GEE Haste or use the 489 ilvl upgrade even though the secondary stats blow Shadow Orbs.

    I've been generalizing here and if you're under Haste cap by a relatively narrow margin Quick in Yellows isn't a bad choice.
    Pretty sure he wasn't responding to that part of your post.
    {[( )]}

  5. #345
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    Pretty sure he wasn't responding to that part of your post.
    Guess I'm confused then >.<

    Which part was it?
    Last edited by Frmercury; 2012-10-25 at 10:41 AM.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    @Haste:

    Look through Twin's Sims in depth for the different profiles and values pre and post 8085 and how they are combined / averaged to come up with the two sets of PP values we're currently using. While saying that Haste is worth ~0.45 PP is somewhat of a quantified statement in general it is more accurate than abiding by Haste PP values greater than 0.50 PP in my opinion.

    Sacrificing Primary stats for Secondary ones is almost never a good idea from a scaling standpoint.

    Besides this conversation will be moot in another month or so when we're getting Haste capped 'legitimately' from almost gear alone.


    I'm not going to into this too much but your logic and your arguments seem flawed and I think you're really leading people down the wrong path. You put pre and post 8085 haste levels together which makes no sense whatsoever. It would be like saying hit is worth XX before and after the hit level. I agree that intellect is key but if your PP level in a secondary stat (any stat) at that particular time is higher than 0.50 then rationally you should gem the secondary stat - this is the meaning behind PP. PP values are about as factual as you can get as they are developed from sims - your argue seems more based on feelings not back by any evidence. I remember dpsing in my holy gear and although I had more int my dps was lower because I didn't have enough haste. Think of it as a river: intellect is the depth and width and haste is the speed of the water - you need a combination of both to max benefits. I don't mean this as an attack - if you're the guy that wrote the guide on ht2 then it's a great guide and thanks for the hard work. But, your view about intellect seems contradictory to all factual evidence.
    Last edited by Elicium; 2012-10-25 at 08:13 PM.

  7. #347
    Zen trinket - With an internal cooldown of 55 seconds and its proc lasting for 15 seconds, the proc is equivalent to having a maximum of: ?

    My problem is that I lose 900 int by not using the 463 int trink with a crit proc. MrRobot has it 10th on the trink list and it puts me over the haste cap so I keep using it but it seems to defy logic that its 10rd BiS. And I have seen it as hight as 4th BiS.

    Currently my gear is
    us.battle.net/wow/en/character/suramar/Autumnight/simple

    Anyone know why its rated so high over an int trink? Im really pre raid atm so min maxing is a little silly but I want to push it as far as possible.

    Any help would be great. I also switch Mindbended FDCL and MB and Halo and Cas often so please ignore.

  8. #348
    I had troubles wit your URL, but I'll paste it for you here.

    4,041 Int is HUGE from the trinket. 103 crit seems very moot as it does not stack or increase after that and is quite paltry compared to haste. (I have the mastery reforged into 300 haste)

    Your iLevel is higher than mine and I raid without problems; I'm not sure why you step yourself down to just 'pre-raid'!? I would, however, get yourself closer to 15.00% hit so you won't miss as often.

    Here's me.
    Disc/Shadow Priest

  9. #349
    [QUOTE=Aceso Jenkins;18877618]

    For some reason it doesn’t give my human Mace speciation bringing me to expertise/ hit cap. Which makes human almost as good as Pandas I would think as long as you use a mace. Pre raid I dont have any thing from a raid yet so Im still pre raid I guess atm.
    Last edited by Autumnight o suramar; 2012-10-25 at 07:40 PM.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    Pretty sure he wasn't responding to that part of your post.
    You can be completely sure ^^

  11. #351
    ToF I didnt know that was prefered /darn it.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Autumnight o suramar View Post
    ToF I didnt know that was prefered /darn it.
    I use Divine Insight on fights with no or few adds (first and second boss of MV) and then I have been using ToF, as the damage increase uptime is very good, for the last four bosses of MV!
    Disc/Shadow Priest

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    A general guideline for Multiple target Damage over Time would be to use both VT + SW:P on 2-3 targets. If you have to choose between using just one Damage over Time spell on a target you should choose SW:P because it takes less time to cast, has a longer duration and you have more flexibility in movement while casting SW:P over VT which has a cast time.
    I disagree there, but it depends on your talent choices. If you have FDCL but not DI, I think VT is better than SW:P because of the chance to proc SoD. Most priests seem to run with FDCL and not DI, so *in general* I believe VT > SW:P. Conversely if you have DI but not FDCL, SW:P gains the upper hand due to the possible procs. If you have both it is less clear. But I still believe the SoD procs make VT better (as long as you're not GCD locked).

    I always put VT up first on multiple targets and then SW:P in the next round, but making sure I prioritize SoD, MB and DP over SW:P. Not sure if this is the best way theoretically though, but it feels 'right' to me.

  14. #354
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarqa View Post
    I disagree there, but it depends on your talent choices. If you have FDCL but not DI, I think VT is better than SW:P because of the chance to proc SoD. Most priests seem to run with FDCL and not DI, so *in general* I believe VT > SW:P. Conversely if you have DI but not FDCL, SW:P gains the upper hand due to the possible procs. If you have both it is less clear. But I still believe the SoD procs make VT better (as long as you're not GCD locked).

    I always put VT up first on multiple targets and then SW:P in the next round, but making sure I prioritize SoD, MB and DP over SW:P. Not sure if this is the best way theoretically though, but it feels 'right' to me.
    It depends on how many targets you have. Both full duration SW:Ps and VTs are worth more than a MSp proc that goes wasted. For example, on Gara'jal in the spirit realm, as long as you have high health minions to cast dots on, you shouldn't worry about MSp at all. Therefore, you should be prioritising SW:P over VT and MSp. On a two target fight like Stone Guardians, it doesn't matter, since you'll have enough time to put both of them up, regardless (even then, SW:P + SAs > VT + MSp procs).
    {[( )]}

  15. #355
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    @Haste Capping:

    Here's your maths Currently I'm not going off of anecdotal or empirical evidence for my statements rather digging through exhaustive Simcraft results and profiting from others' (better than my) math.

    One of the biggest things I'd like to echo is that people don't understand the fluidity and generalized nature that our PP values now have. Right now they're an averaging of averages taken from around 40 Sims iirc. This is the x-pac of self Simming and is really the only real way to get the right answer for YOU specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    It depends on how many targets you have. Both full duration SW:Ps and VTs are worth more than a MSp proc that goes wasted. For example, on Gara'jal in the spirit realm, as long as you have high health minions to cast dots on, you shouldn't worry about MSp at all. Therefore, you should be prioritising SW:P over VT and MSp. On a two target fight like Stone Guardians, it doesn't matter, since you'll have enough time to put both of them up, regardless (even then, SW:P + SAs > VT + MSp procs).
    Yeah, there's not too many situations where you're really going to have to choose. Spirits on Elegon is the only one off the top of my head.

  16. #356
    Sorry to flay a dead horse but I went to your link and it seems to show that under the haste cap you are better off gemming pure haste if you can hit the haste cap (without sacrificing more than 650 int).

    Zarque wrote: "- Reaching 8085 haste will gain you 360PP
    - Before and after that specific point, Haste is worth 0.4475PP (Twintop value, personal simcraft might give you a slightly different value)
    - So, clearly giving up less than 360 int to gain 8085 haste is a straightforward DPS gain
    - However, since each haste you gain over int is also valued at 0.4475 you only lose 0.5525PP by swapping out haste for int.
    - 360/0.5525=651.58

    Therefore, you can give up 651 int for haste to gain the Haste cap and see an increase in DPS.
    This is mostly attained through gems.
    (to verify: (651x0.4475)+360=651)"


    This seems to be reinforced by other posts. Spinalcrack had a particularly interesting post where even in BIS gear (haste cap met through gear) a pure haste gem would only be slightly worse than a pure intellect gem.

  17. #357
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Selective quoting is selective:

    Quote Originally Posted by Drye
    Short answer yes, you are correct. Kilee is the one who gave me the 360pp value of the 8085 break point, so you would have to ask him on the math to back it up. But on topic, there are many multiple outliers that will throw off the number. I believe the number comes from full BIS which brought up the 360pp value, so that number will be much lower compared to the 12-16k int we have now to the 19-20k int we will have in BIS.

    Something that a lot of people tend to forget is that, every stat increase weather it be haste/crit/mastery/hit/int all have a direct correlation on each other (int obviously affecting the rest with the highest increase). So for a long and more accurate answer, there will be a different value for each bracket you are in ilvl wise(higher stats). With the small amount of int we currently have the breakpoint really isn't worth dropping lets say 700 int to get.

    People really tend to over value the 8085 breakpoint because of the ".78" haste value. Most of those people, are who don't understand really what the breakpoint does. It adds an extra tick to the length of sw, so sw;p will go from ~17 seconds to ~19 seconds. This gain allows from more gcds throughout the fight, which is where the larger portion of the dps gain comes from, not the actual tick.
    HOWEVER I would like to reiterate:

    One of the biggest things I'd like to echo is that people don't understand the fluidity and generalized nature that our PP values now have. Right now they're an averaging of averages taken from around 40 Sims iirc. This is the x-pac of self Simming and is really the only real way to get the right answer for YOU specifically.
    Last edited by Frmercury; 2012-10-26 at 03:11 PM.

  18. #358
    Flashfrozen Resin Globule or Vision of the Predator as second trinket (before next DMF)

  19. #359
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloomy View Post
    Flashfrozen Resin Globule or Vision of the Predator as second trinket (before next DMF)
    http://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php...=1692#iTrinket

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    Selective quoting is selective:


    HOWEVER I would like to reiterate:

    One of the biggest things I'd like to echo is that people don't understand the fluidity and generalized nature that our PP values now have. Right now they're an averaging of averages taken from around 40 Sims iirc. This is the x-pac of self Simming and is really the only real way to get the right answer for YOU specifically.
    This from the person that chose to blend pre and post haste values?? You keep making statements but have nothing to back it up -pretty much the entire post that you linked goes against what you say. It's hypocritical.

    Moreover, if you look in the posts above I'm the person that said to self sim to check out where haste comes out. You're the one that said: "Any time you're facing a choice to sacrifice Intellect for Haste or Spirit / Hit: DON'T. "

    Worst case: even at BIS where you are post haste, a haste gem is not that much worse then an intellect gem.

    If you need to sacrifice one or two int gems for haste gems to hit 8085 then it's a absolutely a DPS increase.
    Last edited by Elicium; 2012-10-26 at 07:24 PM.

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