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  1. #361

    Critisise me

    Here's the log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/3...4/?s=146&e=431, Armory's in the sig.


    Give me constructive criticism, tear me apart, just mention anything that could possibly improve my DPS. I'm gemmed for INT because as I understand it, if the 8085 cap is unreachable, INT's value should supersede that of haste's. Correct?

    Go.
    Vereesa of Paragon, formerly of Depraved
    WCL

  2. #362
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elicium View Post
    This from the person that chose to blend pre and post haste values?? You keep making statements but have nothing to back it up -pretty much the entire post that you linked goes against what you say. It's hypocritical.
    Reading is hard? Is a fact and funny enough the bullet point right before the text YOU bolded in the excerpt YOU reposted from that thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarqa
    - Before and after that specific point, Haste is worth 0.4475PP (Twintop value, personal simcraft might give you a slightly different value)
    Also from Zarqa's post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarqa
    Edit2: at the gear levels where you need gems to reach the haste cap, haste probably is worth less than 0.4475, lowering the int you can swap. Can Kilee/Twintop/Drye maybe give a better PP value for this?
    and the number I used earlier:
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    Where we're sitting at right now Haste is worth about .44 PP to Intellect's 1.00 PP.
    For the record though I posted that ^ before I had seen Zarqa's post, just the ~360 PP Twintop put out there.

    How on Earth did you manage to read through that post enough to feel confident in insulting me yet miss a point that was stated TWICE in that same post? Really? REALLY? lol. C'mon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elicium View Post
    Moreover, if you look in the posts above I'm the person that said to self sim to check out where haste comes out. You're the one that said: "Any time you're facing a choice to sacrifice Intellect for Haste or Spirit / Hit: DON'T. "
    When I encourage self Simming part of that includes not only getting accurate PP values for yourself but that you can Sim your gear with different gemming to see which comes out ahead in potential DPS. On getting personal PP values I would add a recommendation that you run several fight types in Simcraft (including 2 target fights) and find what you believe to be an applicable average of the different resulting values based on the fight types you find yourself actually doing in raids.


    Also:

    Has anyone who's been arguing with me in this thread taken the time over the past months to read in depth the posts Twintop has made? To browse through the actual Simcraft results? Taken the time to fully wrap their head around how the final PP values were calculated based off of that information? If not please do:

    http://warcraft.twintop-tahoe.com/?p=117
    http://warcraft.twintop-tahoe.com/?p=284
    http://warcraft.twintop-tahoe.com/?p=396
    http://warcraft.twintop-tahoe.com/?p=407

    While I'm the first to admit that theorycrafting math is not my forte doing research is something I (or anyone else for that matter) can easily do. If other people have looked through all the information I have (or found something I missed) and have reasoning behind why they came to different conclusions than I did I'd be happy to hear them. As people who have backed up correcting me with good reasoning before can tell you: I'm very quick to admit that I was wrong and from that point forward only put out the correct information. I am human, I will make mistakes but I do my best to never make the same mistake twice.

    I'm not being a stubborn ass on this point because I think I'm super awesome and always right, I'm being adamant that only the best information possible is making it out there, that incorrect information isn't being casually passed along just because enough people say it NOT because it's backed up by sound reasoning.

    I'm probably going to have to finish off every post on this subject with the following as I feel that for all the discussions we're having we're missing the forest for the trees:
    * Stat weights this x-pac are extremely different than they have been in the past as they are not hard, absolute values rather subjective and come attached with qualifiers.
    * The only way to get the right answer of what is best for you is to Sim yourself.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-26 at 07:30 PM ----------

    Rather timely and on point the beast that is Kilee just posted this up:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee
    I've not had as much free time as I had back in Cata to work on proofs like this. I'll go over the method for figuring out how much dps hitting the haste breakpoints are worth.

    First you take a character profile that is under the haste mark. Then sim that, find the dps and the int scale factor for it.

    http://chardev.org/profile/7908-BISNo2.html
    DPS: 103,414
    Int: 3.91

    Then you take a character profile that is above the haste mark, and get the same values.

    http://chardev.org/profile/4622-BISNo1.html
    DPS: 104,398
    Int: 3.95

    Take the difference of the dps, and divide by the average of the scale factors:

    (104,398-103,414)/((3.91+3.95)/2) = 250.3817 PP

    Actually a bit lower than my first prediction... don't kill yourself trying to get it...
    In that example the threshold would seem to be trading ~3 Reckless for Quick or 1 Brilliant for Quick... if I'm doing the math right that is. I'm primarily unsure if the above result based on what appears to be to be non-normalized PP values can have PP values where Int = 1.00 applied to it?
    Last edited by Frmercury; 2012-10-27 at 01:33 AM. Reason: So much editing

  3. #363
    Since I have been quoted several times here, I'll give my PoV on the latest info I have:

    My quoted formula is correct, but the numbers I originally put in are off for 2 reasons:
    1) The actual gain of reaching the haste cap is not 3600PP but less.
    2) Right now the value of haste is not 0.4475, but less.

    Both points will lower the amount of int that can you can swap for haste to gain DPS when you reach 8085. The 651 int that I originally posted is definitely too high.

    To elaborate:
    Regarding 1), Kilee posted a new value of 250.8PP for reaching the haste cap today. Much less than the original 360PP. Keep in mind that this was based on 2 sims with 509 iLvL gear. I am not sure how our current gear levels will influence the number, but since we're at 475-485 right now and not at 509, it surely will. I hope I have time to look into this over the weekend.
    Regarding 2), the 0.4475PP value for haste is based on the heroic T14 BiS item list. As Kilee has elegantly proven over the years, secondary stat values go up with item level. The 0.4475 value is much higher than Haste currently is worth. Sim for yourself to find your values. In my sims at my current 482 iLVL, Haste is never above 0.4. It varies between 0.33 and 0.38 depending on the Sims. I only sim 1 target fights though, so I assume haste is a bit higher because of the amount of multi-DoT fights we have.

    If you assume that Haste is worth 0.4 now and the gain of reaching the haste cap is 250.8PP, then you can swap out 250.8/0.6=418 int for haste. Keep in mind though that these numbers might still be an overestimate.

    Final personal anecdote: I performed a lot of Sims today with swapping 800 int for 1600 haste to reach the haste cap and the gains and losses were never more than 200DPS. Since the fights we're struggling with most in the guild currently are multi-target, I decided to keep my haste gems in. However, if you really are very fixed on whether or not re-gemming haste for int is worth it, you should ask your self if the DPS gain is worth the trouble. Putting in time to understanding fight mechanics and time to make you perform better on a fight will most likely have a higher impact on your DPS.

    By all means reforge to get to 8085 haste, but unless you're just a few 100 haste off of the target, don't go replacing all your int gems.
    Last edited by Zarqa; 2012-10-27 at 06:28 AM.

  4. #364

  5. #365
    Thanks for the info Zarqa

  6. #366
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinn View Post
    Do sims take into account FDCL and DI?
    If they've been talented, then of course they do. Why wouldn't they?
    Last edited by Aica; 2012-10-27 at 09:07 PM.
    {[( )]}

  7. #367
    FDCL for multitarget Fights
    Mindbender for Single target simple

  8. #368
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinn View Post
    Do sims take into account FDCL and DI?
    All 9 combinations of T3 and T5 talents, 4 fight types and for two target encounters. That's why there are 40+ Sims there if memory servers.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-28 at 06:40 PM ----------

    Just an FYI but Drye has updated the OP of the [H2P] Shadow Haste Break Points thread incorporating all the math that's been done in the last week and presenting it in a user friendly way

  9. #369

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    All 9 combinations of T3 and T5 talents, 4 fight types and for two target encounters. That's why there are 40+ Sims there if memory servers.
    90 (5*2*9) -- 5 fight types (Patchwerk, Ultraxion, HelterSkelter, Light Movement, Heavy Movement) in single target and two target, 9 talent combinations.

    I'm still playing catchup from my wedding+honeymoon+leveling but am building a new FX-8350 8core machine dedicated to simming (and Folding@Home + SETI@Home when not) that should be online this weekend, so fresh sims are incoming Soon™.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-29 at 09:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophrosyne View Post
    FDCL for multitarget Fights
    Mindbender for Single target simple
    This is oversimplified to the point of being incorrect.

    MB and FDCL are very competitive with one another, but if you're bad at proc management or mana is tough to come by for whatever reason you're better off with MB.

  11. #371
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Is it just me, or are the calculations taken into account for gemming incorrect? By my maths it goes as follows:

    160 Int = 160PP
    200 Spirit + 200 Haste = 115 + 95.68 = 210.68 PP
    100 Int + 200 Haste = 100 + 95.68 = 195.68 PP
    160 Haste + 160 Spirit = 76.544 + 92 = 168.544 PP
    160 Spirit + 160 Hit = 184 PP
    80 Int + 160 Haste = 80 + 76.544 = 156.544 PP

    Of course, socket bonuses do come into account and I understand that, but please someone tell me that my maths is wrong, else I've gemmed incorrectly xD.
    Also, on the same subject, is 320 expertise viable in reds for Shadow? I'm maining mage this xpac (unless guild changes its mind which, god forbid, will happen soon) and for Mages 320 Exp. in reds outweigh everything this early as it allows Hit to be reforged elsewhere (might matter more for mages as Crit is ridiculously strong as a secondary stat for Fire). I can see this being nullified in later patches by us having too much hit on gear and so forth, but for now does anyone know how they stack up?

  12. #372
    Apologies if this has been discussed, I didn't find anything about it.

    With the 4 piece are we going to get Power Word Solace for Shadow Word Intensity 15% damage increase?

  13. #373
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andremello View Post
    Apologies if this has been discussed, I didn't find anything about it.

    With the 4 piece are we going to get Power Word Solace for Shadow Word Intensity 15% damage increase?
    No. Using the four-piece with Shadow Word: Insanity is roughly a 5% damage loss, due to the 3 second extension of Shadow Word: Pain.
    {[( )]}

  14. #374
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twintop View Post
    90 (5*2*9) -- 5 fight types (Patchwerk, Ultraxion, HelterSkelter, Light Movement, Heavy Movement) in single target and two target, 9 talent combinations.

    I'm still playing catchup from my wedding+honeymoon+leveling but am building a new FX-8350 8core machine dedicated to simming (and Folding@Home + SETI@Home when not) that should be online this weekend, so fresh sims are incoming Soon™.
    Ah, I forgot about Ultraxion fight type and admittedly I slacked off a bit and only really browsed a handful of the two target Sims.

    Wow. It's still crazy to think you're essentially putting a rig together for Simming WoW stuff. You're a Shadowform Rockstar Twin
    Last edited by Frmercury; 2012-10-30 at 04:41 PM.

  15. #375
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Is it just me, or are the calculations taken into account for gemming incorrect? By my maths it goes as follows:

    160 Int = 160PP
    200 Spirit + 200 Haste = 115 + 95.68 = 210.68 PP
    100 Int + 200 Haste = 100 + 95.68 = 195.68 PP
    160 Haste + 160 Spirit = 76.544 + 92 = 168.544 PP
    160 Spirit + 160 Hit = 184 PP
    80 Int + 160 Haste = 80 + 76.544 = 156.544 PP

    Of course, socket bonuses do come into account and I understand that, but please someone tell me that my maths is wrong, else I've gemmed incorrectly xD.
    Also, on the same subject, is 320 expertise viable in reds for Shadow? I'm maining mage this xpac (unless guild changes its mind which, god forbid, will happen soon) and for Mages 320 Exp. in reds outweigh everything this early as it allows Hit to be reforged elsewhere (might matter more for mages as Crit is ridiculously strong as a secondary stat for Fire). I can see this being nullified in later patches by us having too much hit on gear and so forth, but for now does anyone know how they stack up?
    No you're right, they're incorrect - someone mentioned it before and I meant to change it but forgot. So, the stat weights are listed for post-hit cap and 8085 haste breakpoint, but the gem values are calculated assuming you don't have them yet. It's right to assume that if you're gemming hit or haste, then you aren't at the cap/breakpoint - but I should probably be listing both and explaining the difference.

    Expertise as hit works just as well for us as it does for mages before the hit cap, but I think fire mages actually value hit rating highe than we do - so it won't be quite as comparatively good as int/haste/spirit gems and hybrid gems.
    Youtube ~ Yvaelle ~ Twitter

  16. #376
    5.1 change - Halo Should now be more responsive.

    Anyone knows what that means?

  17. #377
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andremello View Post
    5.1 change - Halo Should now be more responsive.

    Anyone knows what that means?
    Not sure either, I spoke to the rogues and monks in my guild (who also got the same change to some of their abilities) and none of them know what it means either.
    Youtube ~ Yvaelle ~ Twitter

  18. #378
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    My guess would be that they will make it do damage at the full range that it should do damage, maybe radiate faster as well?

    All speculation though ofc

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    Not sure either, I spoke to the rogues and monks in my guild (who also got the same change to some of their abilities) and none of them know what it means either.
    I don't know it fixes a bug that i detected or I "missdetected", but sometimes my Halo wasn't hitting every single mob within its range.

  20. #380
    Halo isn't hitting newly spawned mobs like other AoE spells are. I stopped using it as a spell to quickly tag a bunch of mobs for dailies. Maybe this has been fixed?

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