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  1. #81
    Could be an issue if they make a buff or something that affects dot damage specifically.
    Also, the combat log says "hit" rather than "damaged" for the procced ticks, so it's obvious that they are able to distinguish between the two enough that it wouldn't be hard (I think) to make sure that it can only proc off of normal ticks.


    I think this is a better version of insanity than the last one, but I still feel that it's lacking. They could easily fold it in with mind-spike. It seems that it's a second spell that's a part of an already minuscule niche. I'd prefer that they made insanity a spell which spread our active dots to nearby enemies to make our aoe rotation even a little-bit more interesting than mind-searing the whole time. (Or something along that vein)

  2. #82
    High Overlord DarkSavior's Avatar
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    Additional testing/Thinking out loud.
    Keeping the OP's assumptions.
    Self buffed attacking the Raiders Target Dummy.
    Mind Spiking all dots off at the 3 minute mark.

    Note: Mastery procs could skew the results one way or the other.

    Mind Bender:
    Mind Flay hit 122 times for 2.11m damage, avg hit of 17.3k for 11.7k DPS
    SW:P hit 96 times for 1.15m damage, avg hit of 12k for 6.4k DPS
    Mindbender hit 37 times for 557k damage, avg hit of 14.7k for 3k DPS

    Combined for 3.82m damage for 21.2k DPS

    SW:Insanity:
    Mind Flay hit 109 times for 1.88m damage, avg hit of 17.3k for 10.4k DPS
    SW:P hit 81 times for 972k damage, avg hit of 12k for 5.4k DPS
    SW:I hit 10 times for 810k damage, avg hit of 81k for 4.5k DPS
    Shadowfiend hit 10 times for 147k damage, avg hit of 14.7k for 817 DPS

    Combined for 3.81m damage for 21.2k DPS

    Net DPS gain:
    Mindbender = 2.3k DPS
    SW:Insanity = 2.2k DPS

    Uh, well then. It doesn't get much closer than that. Nearly identical single target dps. That said, SW:I is probably the clear winner do it scaling with the number of targets. It would seem my earlier napkin math was a bit harsh.
    Last edited by DarkSavior; 2012-07-15 at 09:22 AM.

  3. #83
    Hit for casters is now 15% for +3 mobs.

  4. #84
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catspoir View Post
    Hit for casters is now 15% for +3 mobs.
    Thanks, fixed
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  5. #85
    Mechagnome Veiled's Avatar
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    Hey Yvaelle, Twintop just put up that post we were talking about earlier with the stat weights. They are quite different from the ones listed on SimC site because they are an average of fights. I think you'll be interested to see it! http://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=1592

    MoP Guides, Raiding and Pre-Raiding BiS Lists, Theorycrafting, Healing/DPS Help & More!

  6. #86
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    Are you going to include race-bonuses and what gives most dps boost?

  7. #87
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    Are you going to include race-bonuses and what gives most dps boost?
    Good idea! Thanks
    Youtube ~ Yvaelle ~ Twitter

  8. #88
    I think it's worth noting that if one chooses FDCL then using Glyph of Mind Spike in conjunction with it would be a dps increase. A small one, but an increase nonetheless.

  9. #89
    Mechagnome Veiled's Avatar
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    If you'd like to include a link to my professions post, feel free.
    http://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=1625

    MoP Guides, Raiding and Pre-Raiding BiS Lists, Theorycrafting, Healing/DPS Help & More!

  10. #90
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled View Post
    If you'd like to include a link to my professions post, feel free.
    http://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=1625
    Sure for now

    I'm probably going to do a write up but I was waiting until after they announce the new bonuses for some profs that they've said are going to be changed for MoP. Blacksmithing won't be keeping sockets because the hybrid gems are better than straight primary stat bonuses. Enchanting is getting something new - but its unclear if they meant to replace the ring bonuses since they seemed equal to other manufacturing profs - or if they just meant to give it a new sparkly thing. My GM has suggested and is advocating they be given rainbow coloured footprints, which I endorse! I'm forgetting one other major prof change...
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  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    Are you going to include race-bonuses and what gives most dps boost?
    If you would rather not extend out your guide with this info Skill, this is something I plan to cover in my Beginning Priest guide as I update it for MoP. Not saying you can't also cover it but I know how long guides can get when you start trying to include everything

    Oh also I have profession infos as well.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-07 at 01:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    My GM has suggested and is advocating they be given rainbow coloured footprints, which I endorse!
    Where do I sign-up for this?

  12. #92
    I am probably missing something obvious but, in MoP why do we cast MF at all? Is it really just to have something to do when nothing else is up?

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    I am probably missing something obvious but, in MoP why do we cast MF at all? Is it really just to have something to do when nothing else is up?
    Higher DPET and lower mana cost than SWP's on-hit (1% v. 4.4%), single target snare...

    But yeah, it's totally a filler spell any more with no effect/play on other abilities. Kind of sad, really.

  14. #94
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twintop View Post
    Higher DPET and lower mana cost than SWP's on-hit (1% v. 4.4%), single target snare...

    But yeah, it's totally a filler spell any more with no effect/play on other abilities. Kind of sad, really.
    I'd love to see some kind of synergy return.

    Like, for each tick of Mind Flay you deal, your next Mind Blast hits 10% harder, stacking up to five times.

    This would boost our single target dps without altering our dot priorities or upping our cleave damage which they seem very cautious of.

    It would also bring back another touch of a skill factor in that positioning would be very important for us to maximize our patchwerk dps - we would want to make sure we aren't moving for more than a gcd or two per MB cooldown, just to make sure we're keeping everything up (which is still higher priority) and keeping MB on cooldown (which would be especcially important now).
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  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    I'd love to see some kind of synergy return.

    Like, for each tick of Mind Flay you deal, your next Mind Blast hits 10% harder, stacking up to five times.

    This would boost our single target dps without altering our dot priorities or upping our cleave damage which they seem very cautious of.

    It would also bring back another touch of a skill factor in that positioning would be very important for us to maximize our patchwerk dps - we would want to make sure we aren't moving for more than a gcd or two per MB cooldown, just to make sure we're keeping everything up (which is still higher priority) and keeping MB on cooldown (which would be especcially important now).
    Yeah, but people would probably complain that it makes Shadow feel even less mobile, being forced to sit still and channel to get max DPS.

    But yeah, all the Mind Flay triggered effects being gone kinda sucks. Not sure if much has changed since a month ago, but Shadow in general feels rather boring now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Precursor View Post
    "Fall of therzane....." ....um what? if that woman fell , god help us it will be the second cataclysm
    Words that lots of people don't seem to know the definition of:
    "Troll", "Rehash", "Casual", "Dead", "Dying", "Exploit".

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Vook View Post
    Yeah, but people would probably complain that it makes Shadow feel even less mobile, being forced to sit still and channel to get max DPS.

    But yeah, all the Mind Flay triggered effects being gone kinda sucks. Not sure if much has changed since a month ago, but Shadow in general feels rather boring now.
    Completely agreed on the implied possible mobility issue. Not to mention how much weaker Mind Blast would have to be without the buff up. Definitely not a fan.

    But in continuation of that line of thought: all of the previous "synergy" reasons to cast Mind Flay didn't make you want to cast Mind Flay more than you already did. Sure it reduced the cooldown of your Shadowfiend, but that's already reduced baseline. Sure it was increased when you had Shadow Word: Pain on the target already, why not increase the damage of both to begin with?

    Mind Flay was already our lowest priority spell from the getgo, I don't see how getting rid of redundancies and unnecessary clutter makes it "more boring" than it was before.

    If anything, both the potential procs of FD;CL and DI, as well as the idea of gaming Twist of Fate off an add for bonus execute damage on a boss regardless of its health level, I find this interesting. Refreshing. I find Power Infusion (assuming it can actually bother to affect Mind Blast) more interesting than Archangel bumping up Mind Flay/Mind Blast/nothing else (because without 4pc13, that's all it is).

    I don't see where this level of "Shadow is boring now that they took our stuff away". Not just you, Vook, but everyone. What exactly did they take that was so crucial to the spec? Can it be placed? Or maybe after X years of playing your mind itself is drawing for something different for awhile, and it's not really the spec that's the issue but time for a change?


    I could be wrong, I'm begging to be wrong, here. Someone, anyone, enlighten me?
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2012-08-21 at 01:49 AM.
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Completely agreed on the implied possible mobility issue. Not to mention how much weaker Mind Blast would have to be without the buff up. Definitely not a fan.

    But in continuation of that line of thought: all of the previous "synergy" reasons to cast Mind Flay didn't make you want to cast Mind Flay more than you already did. Sure it reduced the cooldown of your Shadowfiend, but that's already reduced baseline. Sure it was increased when you had Shadow Word: Pain on the target already, why not increase the damage of both to begin with?

    Mind Flay was already our lowest priority spell from the getgo, I don't see how getting rid of redundancies and unnecessary clutter makes it "more boring" than it was before.

    If anything, both the potential procs of FD;CL and DI, as well as the idea of gaming Twist of Fate off an add for bonus execute damage on a boss regardless of its health level, I find this interesting. Refreshing. I find Power Infusion (assuming it can actually bother to affect Mind Blast) more interesting than Archangel bumping up Mind Flay/Mind Blast/nothing else (because without 4pc13, that's all it is).

    I don't see where this level of "Shadow is boring now that they took our stuff away". Not just you, Vook, but everyone. What exactly did they take that was so crucial to the spec? Can it be placed? Or maybe after X years of playing your mind itself is drawing for something different for awhile, and it's not really the spec that's the issue but time for a change?


    I could be wrong, I'm begging to be wrong, here. Someone, anyone, enlighten me?
    As for me, they took away the necessity of making decisions. It was somewhat dumbed down in the end of cata, but while shadow was more or less like in beta in terms of play, the logic behind your priority list and how it alters in different raid situations was rather complex.

    And they more or less ruined our damage on the move now anyway. Procs don't count, on-the-move damage is on-demand by definition and shouldn't be tied to RNG (some of it, maybe, but decent on-demand filler on the move is required). Although I still agree that MF buffing mindblast would make it even worse.

    I'd like something dynamic. MF crits reducing MB cd by 0.5-1s. MS reducing MB cd by 1s. They should give some meaning into MS, I understand that they've removed +crit to MB because of FDCL, but the current state of MS is that spamming MF without dots is about as viable as spamming MS.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Celentes View Post
    As for me, they took away the necessity of making decisions. It was somewhat dumbed down in the end of cata, but while shadow was more or less like in beta in terms of play, the logic behind your priority list and how it alters in different raid situations was rather complex.

    And they more or less ruined our damage on the move now anyway. Procs don't count, on-the-move damage is on-demand by definition and shouldn't be tied to RNG (some of it, maybe, but decent on-demand filler on the move is required). Although I still agree that MF buffing mindblast would make it even worse.
    The logic behind your priority list only changed when you had Theralion's Mirror as a trinket. As soon as that was replaced, you were back to the simple design of "Keep all three DoTs up (but only really have to cast 2 of them), Mind Blast on cooldown, else spam Mind Flay until execute".

    That was it. That was Cataclysm's design. That was Wrath's design. Undead's design in BC (Plague actually hurt like a truck then), except occasionally depending on the tier you could get away with casting Shadow Word: Death on cooldown all the time rather than execute. Didn't really change the gameplay or the feel of it. Therallion's Mirror was great for what it was, but Shadow was never as complicated in what to do, only in ways to be able to squeeze out just that much more is where the skillcap is.

    As for what to do when moving? We a) Keep our DoTs up (like we've always been doing) and b) spam Devouring Plague for the instant portion damage. Well, seeing as that's gone, we spam Shadow Word: pain, for the instant portion damage. It has exactly the same effect.

    Except, unlike on live, we now have a built in 45% run speed to get us to where we need to go, faster, thanks to Mind Flay's new glyph. Which means, yes, our damage drops while we run (as does everyone's), but we get to go back to full steam much sooner. This is kind of a big deal, something we've never had before.

    Sure, we can't pop Spirit Walker's Grace and pretend we can ignore the effects of movement on our damage. But we do have this to mitigate it, which in itself is an improvement over Cataclysm's, Wrath's, or even BC's model. I wouldn't consider that being something we're losing, but something we've been given.

    The only thing I see us losing at this point is the yawnfest of Archangel (outside of 4pc13, but trading it for power infusion if we choose, which if tuned right would feel more important for Shadow regardless), and Mind Sear's damage (which is stupid).
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    all of the previous "synergy" reasons to cast Mind Flay didn't make you want to cast Mind Flay more than you already did.
    Exactly. None of those "synergies" had an impact on when/how often you used MF.
    What exactly did they take that was so crucial to the spec?
    Nothing. There was nothing complex about Shadow on live, the synergies were mostly ignoreable.

    ES/S&P -> passive, you didn't watch them. (Unless you count "use DA only after you refreshed your DoTs)
    P&S -> no impact when single-target, made multi-dotting more similar to your normal priority list (one could argue that's easier), increased orb generation when multi dotting, made multi-dotting stronger than it already was.
    ES -> T13 orb generation made it pretty much impossible to ever drop. Even in T12 the case of not generating Orbs in 15 seconds was very low. (especially due to many multi-dot fights)

    As soon as that was replaced, you were back to the simple design of "Keep all three DoTs up (but only really have to cast 2 of them), Mind Blast on cooldown, else spam Mind Flay until execute".
    Exactly. The only change Cataclysm made was to make sure that you keep Mindblast on Cooldown. (aka Shadoworbs combined with a big damage buff to it)

    Undead's design in BC (Plague actually hurt like a truck then
    I'd actually say that the current MoP design was closer to Nightelfs during BC, which had Starshards on a 30 sec CD. (comparable to the new DP)
    Last edited by Kaesebrezen; 2012-08-21 at 08:18 AM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    The logic behind your priority list only changed when you had Theralion's Mirror as a trinket. As soon as that was replaced, you were back to the simple design of "Keep all three DoTs up (but only really have to cast 2 of them), Mind Blast on cooldown, else spam Mind Flay until execute".

    That was it. That was Cataclysm's design. That was Wrath's design. Undead's design in BC (Plague actually hurt like a truck then), except occasionally depending on the tier you could get away with casting Shadow Word: Death on cooldown all the time rather than execute. Didn't really change the gameplay or the feel of it. Therallion's Mirror was great for what it was, but Shadow was never as complicated in what to do, only in ways to be able to squeeze out just that much more is where the skillcap is.

    As for what to do when moving? We a) Keep our DoTs up (like we've always been doing) and b) spam Devouring Plague for the instant portion damage. Well, seeing as that's gone, we spam Shadow Word: pain, for the instant portion damage. It has exactly the same effect.

    Except, unlike on live, we now have a built in 45% run speed to get us to where we need to go, faster, thanks to Mind Flay's new glyph. Which means, yes, our damage drops while we run (as does everyone's), but we get to go back to full steam much sooner. This is kind of a big deal, something we've never had before.

    Sure, we can't pop Spirit Walker's Grace and pretend we can ignore the effects of movement on our damage. But we do have this to mitigate it, which in itself is an improvement over Cataclysm's, Wrath's, or even BC's model. I wouldn't consider that being something we're losing, but something we've been given.

    The only thing I see us losing at this point is the yawnfest of Archangel (outside of 4pc13, but trading it for power infusion if we choose, which if tuned right would feel more important for Shadow regardless), and Mind Sear's damage (which is stupid).
    Instant DP damage as on-the-move filler is much stronger than zero-tick of SWP. It's on the level of numbers, but you've mentioned us losing mind sear's damage, so that's the same logic.
    What I meant by decisions is keeping up ES and evangelism in different circumstances. Not all of them were trivial, and there still were situations when it required a decision of sorts to be made (yor'sahj is a good example, for one).
    It's not too deep, but it doesn't mean that removing it makes the shadowplay more fun. Maybe it doesn't matter to you, half the people around here find it worse, so that's probably not just me or someone else to be on the 'subjective' level.
    That's completely up to you if you don't find the current shadowplay deep or fun for that matter, but I just simply see no way you can find the new one better. It may be 'not worse' for people who don't care and/or don't see the current synergy.

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