Page 2 of 49 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
12
... LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Seramore View Post
    I'm confused, why do you have Devouring Plague twice on the list, and why is the second one on the bottom of the priority when Mind Blast and Shadow Word: Death are on cooldown? Unless you already have the DoT on your target, I would assume that you'd want to use it over mostly anything.
    Because there's no need to use it as soon as you get that 3rd Orb. The DoT component only lasts for 6 seconds, so you're never going to generate Shadow Orbs quick enough to keep a 100% uptime on it. Therefore, if a strong spell like Halo or Mindbender are off cooldown, you're best off using one of those instead of Devouring Plague, as long as it doesn't slow down your Orb generation, ie, delaying MB or SW:D.

    That said, the Divine Insight talent might affect that, since if it proccs as you use Halo, you then have to cast DP before being able to cast MB.

    When the boss is below 20%, you'll probably just hit DP everytime you reach 3 Orbs, since you'll be generating them so fast.

  2. #22
    3 orb DP will always be your #1 priority no matter what.

    Erto, do you have any idea how much damage DP is doing? Its by far our #1 dmg spell. You would never, ever wait to use it once it gets to 3 orbs. When you get there, use it.

  3. #23
    The Patient
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    O-Town, NE
    Posts
    317
    I remember back in the day playing priest forum banter with Yvaelle, have you grown up.

  4. #24
    Dreadlord Seramore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Millbrae, California
    Posts
    772
    Quote Originally Posted by Erto View Post
    Because there's no need to use it as soon as you get that 3rd Orb. The DoT component only lasts for 6 seconds, so you're never going to generate Shadow Orbs quick enough to keep a 100% uptime on it. Therefore, if a strong spell like Halo or Mindbender are off cooldown, you're best off using one of those instead of Devouring Plague, as long as it doesn't slow down your Orb generation, ie, delaying MB or SW.

    That said, the Divine Insight talent might affect that, since if it proccs as you use Halo, you then have to cast DP before being able to cast MB.

    When the boss is below 20%, you'll probably just hit DP everytime you reach 3 Orbs, since you'll be generating them so fast.
    I'm still confused about why you wouldn't use it when you have three orbs. Right now your reasoning for that is because the DoT only lasts for 6 seconds and you won't generate enough Shadow orbs to get a 100% uptime on it. At the moment, Devouring Plague does a shit ton of damage, with both the DoT and the initial damage. There is really no reason not to do it whenever you have 3 Shadow Orbs (except if VT/SWP is about to fall off or if there's an off-chance that you already have Devouring Plague up).
    if you use a pony in your avatar/signature, i automatically think less of you.

  5. #25
    DP has been 22-25% of my damage on beta or higher and I've tested every single boss so far. DO NOT WAIT.

  6. #26
    The Patient
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    O-Town, NE
    Posts
    317
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampiroth View Post
    DP has been 22-25% of my damage on beta or higher and I've tested every single boss so far. DO NOT WAIT.
    To be honest, I can see it getting nerfed. Also, VT seems underwhelming.

  7. #27
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Posts
    4,786
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    The list would only make sense if SW:P and VT are between those two DPs (where they should be, even below MB and SW).

    I meant revision, because i'm not getting anywhere the scaling factors as you do in lvl 496 raid gear.
    I'm getting something closer on the line with the simcraft stats for 85.
    If you are getting numbers close to 85 (using the 85 numbers Vampiroth listed already):
    Int = 1
    Spell power = .7795
    Haste = .5362
    Crit = .5011
    Mastery = .2750

    That's pretty close to the numbers I listed in my set:
    1.1 = Hit (up to hit cap, 17%)
    1 = Intelligence
    0.83 = Haste
    0.77 = Spellpower
    0.5 = Critical Hit Chance
    0.25 = Mastery

    I'm actually shocked those are as close as they are given all the changes. I'm actually more inclined to think something is wrong than right with them being that close. The only significantly different one is haste - which I've already mentioned I'm toying with because I don't think simcraft is doing it right, and slightly different mastery - same reason.

    I manually entered the numbers I have on beta - which isn't in raid gear yet, its in the free pvp set so anyone with beta access has the access to the exact same gear (mentioned in the assumptions), but those numbers should be more accurate for starting raid stuff which will most likely be heroic blues which is approximately the same as epic pvp gear in stats, rather than simming a BiS set only useful for the end of the tier / starting of the second raid tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    Regardless of that, i think Mindbender is a bit off(a large bit) in simcraft with it's damage. It's hitting for more than double than Shadowfiend, which it shouldn't do. It should only have a higher uptime. Currently it looks like Shadowfiend: Count 29 - hit 13000 vs. Mindbender: Count 98 - hit 33000 , where it should be hit 12000.

    If i substract the bugged Mindbender value, i get a result of FDCL > Mindbender, which is somehow similar to by dummy testing showing FDCL ahead of Mindbender
    I didn't use simcraft to determine dpets for spells (which is why my mindbender and shadowfiend DPET are almost precisely the same amount), you can just do it manually by hitting a dummy with a spell to get a number and normalizing to execute time - avoids the risk of something in simcraft altering the results, or not being accurate to the current beta build (ie, even though mindbender is listed as a 15 second duration versus shadowfiends 12 seconds, mindbender is only hitting 12 times, not 15).

    I wouldn't trust any simcraft for level 90 to give you an accurate prediction of dps yet (which is why I haven't written anything about that yet).

    Edit: given the huge discrepancy I found between the dps of FD,CL and Mindbender I'd be very interested if you shared why you found FD,CL to be more valuable

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-08 at 02:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mindp View Post
    I remember back in the day playing priest forum banter with Yvaelle, have you grown up.
    The sentence fragment at the end is all kinds of ambiguous

    Is that, "My, have you grown up", or "Have you grown up?"

    Who is this by the way?

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-08 at 02:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mindp View Post
    To be honest, I can see it getting nerfed. Also, VT seems underwhelming.
    VT is sadly terrible right now ya, it borders on filler.... my heart aches every time I try a dps priority that leaves VT off until the option is something like "vt or mind flay? hmm, ok - maybe now is an ok time to vt, maybe..."
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-07-08 at 02:14 AM.
    Youtube ~ Yvaelle ~ Twitter

  8. #28
    The Patient
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    O-Town, NE
    Posts
    317
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post

    [/COLOR]

    The sentence fragment at the end is all kinds of ambiguous

    Is that, "My, have you grown up", or "Have you grown up?"

    Who is this by the way? [COLOR="red"]

    Sorry, English is my primary language, so I can't type it.

  9. #29

  10. #30
    Dreadlord Seramore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Millbrae, California
    Posts
    772
    Wow, way to not acknowledge me, Derevka!
    if you use a pony in your avatar/signature, i automatically think less of you.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Seramore View Post
    Wow, way to not acknowledge me, Derevka!
    you too? what is this, reunion? damn

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampiroth View Post
    3 orb DP will always be your #1 priority no matter what.

    Erto, do you have any idea how much damage DP is doing? Its by far our #1 dmg spell. You would never, ever wait to use it once it gets to 3 orbs. When you get there, use it.
    Yes, it does a tonne. However, there's no need to use it as soon as possible. Since the DoT component is only 6 seconds, you can afford to hold off on it, as long as it doesn't slow down your Orb generation.

    Look at it this way.

    MB (to generate the 3rd orb) -> DP -> Halo -> Carry on with normal rotation.
    MB (to generate the 3rd orb) -> Halo -> DP -> Carry on with normal rotation.

    Changing between using those won't affect how many Devouring Plagues you can get off in a fight. The only thing you're doing by picking the first option is giving yourself less Halos across a fight. You do no more DPs, you do no more MBs, hence why it would be a DPS loss. However, by using the second one, you get no more DPs across a fight, no more MBs across a fight, yet you do get more Halos in across a fight. That's where the DPS increase comes in.
    Last edited by Erto; 2012-07-08 at 02:03 PM.

  13. #33
    I'm sorry but your logic is completely flawed. Why would you MB before DP with DP at 3 orbs? That is a waste of an orb. The DOT time has nothing to do with you needing to cast it either, its going to fall off either way. It does significant initial damage as well. Currently, my DP is doing 169.2k damage per execute. 73k of that is initial damage, not dot damage. Thats more damage than MB, or Halo combined even at 25 yards when you will rarely ever even be at 25 yards perfectly.

    Here is a graph of how halo works:

    Formula source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...9137?page=5#97

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampiroth View Post
    Why would you MB before DP with DP at 3 orbs?
    It was the MB that gave him 3 Orbs. There is no single reason to use DP afterwards if Mindbender/Halo CD are off or one of your DoTs are about to drop.

    If you can position yourself for halo, than it's a DPS increase because of DPET.
    Last edited by Kaesebrezen; 2012-07-08 at 01:59 PM.

  15. #35
    Yeah, what Kaesebrezen said, that Mind Blast is the one that gives you the third orb, I'll edit to make it clearer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampiroth View Post
    The DOT time has nothing to do with you needing to cast it either, its going to fall off either way.
    And that's my point. The DoT's going to fall off regardless, so there's absolutely no way you can keep up a 100% uptime, it doesn't matter when you cast it, as long as you're not missing out on Shadow Orbs (either by casting MB/SW when you already have 3 orbs or by not using MB on cooldown because you've delayed DP for that long). Since it doesn't matter when you cast it, you're best off casting it when you don't need to reapply DoTs or have Mindbender/Halo available.

    Also, you shouldn't be comparing Devouring Plagues damage with Halo, you should be comparing Mind Flays damage with Halo.
    Last edited by Erto; 2012-07-08 at 02:11 PM.

  16. #36
    Keeping dots at 100% uptime will not be a priority over refreshing DP at 3 orbs. DP is doing far more damage . VT per cast for me is doing 73.9k damage, and SW: Pain is doing 84.3k Damage. Also, a full mind bender is doing less damage than a 3 orb devouring plague. Halo does less damage than devouring plague as well. You are under the impression that I'm saying don't keep dots up, or don't cast those spells. No, I'm not. I'm saying when 3 orbs are up, use devouring plague. It is the highest damage per execute by far. There is no benefit to using a gcd on VT, or SW:Pain over DP. VT is very weak, and the only benefit to keeping it at 100% is if you struggle with mana. With mind bender, that will probably not be the case. SW: Pain procs mb's, but if you proc a mind blast and have 3 orbs you still have to cast DP, then MB to get that orb.

    If you are waiting for the cd on mb to be up to cast DP, so you can just regen an orb, that is flawed logic again when you have a chance to proc mbs. if youve raided on beta at all you would see that there are times when you can proc 3-4 mb's in a row.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampiroth View Post
    over refreshing DP at 3 orbs. DP is doing far more damage be up to cast DP
    You don't get it. There is no "refreshing" in DP. DP is limited by your Orb generation. If all your Orb generators are on CD and have 3 Orbs, there is no single reason to cast 3DP when Halo/Mindbender are of CD or you have to refresh VT or SWP.

    You will not get more damage through DP, but you will get more damage if you have higher DoT uptime or more Mindbender/Halo CDs.

  18. #38
    Refreshing/recasting, same difference. Also, there is a reason. The talent called Divine Insight. There is absolutely no reason to take Twist of Fate or Power Infusion over it.

  19. #39
    (I did not play any of the raid encounters on beta yet.)

    Your guide is about PvE raiding where DPS output is primary concern (25m HC, maybe 10m HC). PvP is not about maximizing damage output. For example, in PvP, Halo would break CC which you really don't want to, on the other hand in some situations (e.g. solo PvP) it'd be even more effective than Mind Sear at finding a rogue. I don't think your point about Halo is right (tho my tests also shown it does higher damage than the other). If it is, Blizzard failed (and at this point we should keep in mind Blizzard is still fine tuning the numbers, and shadow priest is the last spec they designed). What you'll find is that it'll depend on the fight and your role (e.g. how much do you need to help the healers). If you are stacked with melee and everything is in front of you, Star is excellent and for something inbetween Halo and Star, Cascade is excellent. It'd also depend on when and how often the burst is needed. Healing-wise it'd depend on positioning of everyone. All 3 spells seem to do damage to hostiles you are not even in combat with. For world PvP each of these 3 talents can be dangerous (not only on PvE realm, since on PvP realm many enemies leave you alone if you don't hurt them but if you do hurt them it is quickly combat).

    If Blizzard designed the talent tree system right there are quite a few "BiS" glyphs/talents which depend on the fight, a few other ones not matter much (a minority, like the PvP ones), with the rest (also a minority) being best only if the player is skilled on progress but providing good competition talent-wise if the player is mediocre (or good but slacking) and even then it will still depend on the fight and your role. From what I've seen in the various specs of classes this appears to be the case.

    While I agree the Vampiric Embrade glyph is good it really once again depends on the fight mechanics how good it is. For PvP, soloing, scenario, dungeons I'd seriously consider it.

    For soloing, the Glyph of Dark Binding is excellent, but not only for soloing. I already help out our healers a lot with renew during Madness movement on progression. It'd depend on the fight, your healers, and how many healers you got. It'd save the GCD from going back to shadowform (and you keep the advantages of shadowform). PoM is also excellent on some fights where it'll proc guaranteed 5 times (enrage timers of Madness). A great glyph for PvP, but like many not a must have.

    If you Void Shift on someone, Angelic Bulwark won't proc since it isn't a damaging attack from an enemy (not tested though). Desperate Prayer is then an excellent choice. With one GCD you get back to at least 55% of your health. This once again depends on the fight and situation. There are probably also situations where Void Shift + Dispersion is enough to save someone at the cost of more than 1 GCD to get topped off or healed high enough to be safe again. If it is a planned Void Shift the healers are likely more on their toes to get you up, making Desperate Prayer less important.

    On a fight like Atramedes, 3 carefully placed Angelic Feathers nobody else uses would be excellent (12 seconds of movement speed increase) but Body & Soul would also be excellent because Leap of Faith and PW:S would provide together 8 seconds of 60% movement speed as well as a small shield after the second one. The Angelic Feather utility would depend on positioning, but remember while you can have 3 up it has a 10 sec CD on popping next feather whereas PW:S costs mana yet gives a minor shield and can be popped every 15 sec on same player, but more often on different ones). I also found out that, on current beta, you can precast 3 angelic feather on ground and then respec to body and soul without the angelic feather vanishing. I reported this as bug.

    From Darkness, Comes Light also procs from Flash Heal itself so the healing part is relevant for a shadow priest in PvP as well but probably irrelevant in raiding (stilla nice utility in soloing, scenarios, and PvP). Personal utility can far outweight a minor DPS increase in PvP situations, but also during sometimes during progression. If you take From Darkness, Comes Light but not Divine Insight the Mind Spikes make your Mind Blast instant which can be situational. And PI would be best for your arcane mage on Cho Gall.

    In short, while maths are great, keep using your own brain and keep an open mind towards respecing. And lots, lots of reagents in your bags. Also, keep an eye on SimC and EJ spriest MoP thread. And just try out all the talents, experiment. That is what I will do in both PvE and PvP.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  20. #40
    I'll try and explain what they're saying Vampiroth.

    Devouring Plague should only be cast while we have 3 orbs. As a result, after getting 3 orbs we have at 8 seconds before we can get an orb again, at which point we want to have cast DP already so we don't potentially waste either MB casts/fight or orb generation.

    Now, spells like Halo which have a GCD are limited in the max number of times they can be cast per fight based off of how close you actually are to casting them on GCD. What they're saying is that if you hold off on casting DP for a DoT refresh, or casting a CD spell like halo or mind-bender, you're not losing any potential damage from Devouring Plague but you are gaining potential damage from being able to cast a CD spell more in a fight or having higher dot uptime. I actually agree with them that because of the orb generation DP+3 shouldn't be highest on priority, and instead CD spells or other dots should be higher. However, that only holds for the first 6 seconds(4 gcds) after getting 3 orbs.

    Now, where it gets a bit complicated is that if you have divine insight, rather than it being a set "DP+3 is lower on priority than x" for 4 gcds after getting 3 orbs, you have to be concerned with getting 2 DI procs in those 6 seconds. As haste increases it gets more and more likely that we will get a proc in those 8 seconds from a SWP tick.


    Probability of getting a proc off of one tick: 15%

    Worst case we have 3 ticks of SWP in those 6 seconds. (first just after the MB cast that gets us 3 orbs)

    Probability of getting getting 1 or fewer procs in three ticks: 93.9%
    Probability of getting 2 or 3 procs in 3 ticks: 6.1%

    As you can see, the probability of getting 2 or 3 procs in those 6 seconds is quite low. (The thinking here is that if you get a DI proc you have until you get a second one to use it up, otherwise you lose the first one. Also, I'm guessing that the number of times you'll get a DI proc mostly negates the effect of the case where you don't get a DI proc before the CD on MB comes up from the first proc'd cast)

    As a result, it's most likely still a DPS increase to cast a dot refresh or a cd spell before DP until you get a DI proc, at which point you should cast DP and then MB to reduce the chance of munching the first DI proc with the second.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •