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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    So, when looking at a new piece of gear that just dropped, just how much would you value a hit/haste piece compared to a crit/haste piece, assuming both of them have the same rating values?
    If I got an upgrade that had hit/haste on it and upon equipping it I was over the hit cap I would reforge hit into crit. If I got a crit/haste upgrade and was still above hit after equipping it I wouldn't reforge crit into hit. Therefore crit > hit above hit cap.

    If you are over hit cap and have a piece of gear that has hit and haste on it and you've already reforged every other piece of gear you have that has hit on it into haste are you going to leave the hit on the hit/haste piece alone or are you gonna reforge it into crit? If you are going to reforge it into crit then crit is better than hit. I agree that both hit and crit should be reforged into haste but if that isn't an option crit is better than hit above hit cap.

  2. #322
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Apparently I can't get through to you. That's okay, I'm sure you'll do just fine.
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  3. #323
    I haven't read through all the pages so this might have been mentioned. This part doesnt make sense to me :

    1 = Intelligence
    0.4784 = Haste

    ...

    Reckless Vermilion Onyx 80 Int + 160 Haste = 80 + 125 = 205 PP
    Brilliant Primordial Ruby 160 Int = 160 PP
    Either the stat weights or the given values for gems are wrong. Or maybe they've been computed with different gear levels, I don't know.

    So my question is, should I socket red gems in red sockets, or orange gems ?

  4. #324
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
    I haven't read through all the pages so this might have been mentioned. This part doesnt make sense to me :



    Either the stat weights or the given values for gems are wrong. Or maybe they've been computed with different gear levels, I don't know.

    So my question is, should I socket red gems in red sockets, or orange gems ?
    I listed post haste breakpoint 8085 stat weights there, but then I used pre-haste breakpoints when calculating the gems to show how much better they were to raw int gems prior to the haste breakpoint. So, using gems to reach the hit cap and the 8085 haste breakpoint is better than using int gems, but afterwards they are either around equal, or int will begin slightly edging out those stats. The sections were written at different times so I was thinking about different things. I'm thinking I should either list pre and post haste breakpoint stat weights, or I should not list them at all but only show their relationships.

    Stat weights cause a lot of confusion in such a guide because while I'm trying to provide simple and definitive answers to common shadow questions - stat weights are essentially unique to each readers circumstance. Twintop gets around this by providing a composite stat weight based on gear level for the majority of fight scenarios and talent choices - and I'm thinking the better way to handle this question (has come up a few times now in various forms) is to link people to his writing.
    Youtube ~ Yvaelle ~ Twitter

  5. #325
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    My post is seriously off topic but was checking some logs and i saw this http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...yr/Zdun/simple

    Where this guy found 509lvl boots that drops in heroic HoF?
    Is the heart of fear opened in US?

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Keosen View Post
    My post is seriously off topic but was checking some logs and i saw this http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...yr/Zdun/simple

    Where this guy found 509lvl boots that drops in heroic HoF?
    Is the heart of fear opened in US?
    Black Market Auction House?

  7. #327
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    Ah yeah you re right, totally forgot this feature.

  8. #328
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    On Spirit Meta, Haste Plateau (8085), Hit Cap:

    Any time you're facing a choice to sacrifice Intellect for Haste or Spirit / Hit: DON'T. We are in the first effing Tier of the expansion. People need to stop concerning themselves with a Haste plateau that they can't legitimately hit until they're dripping in Heroic gear.

    Intellect > All, always and will be your best scaling stat. Below the Haste cap Haste is worth less than one half of Intellect which is WHY you should be using mixed / pure Intellect gems. Reforge to Hit cap before you stack Reforged Haste.

    USE YOUR BRAINS, stop freaking out about Haste, and do pretty much the same thing (gearing wise) we've done for the last 2+ years.


    Shadowy Love,
    Woaden

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    On Spirit Meta, Haste Plateau (8085), Hit Cap:

    Any time you're facing a choice to sacrifice Intellect for Haste or Spirit / Hit: DON'T. We are in the first effing Tier of the expansion. People need to stop concerning themselves with a Haste plateau that they can't legitimately hit until they're dripping in Heroic gear.

    Intellect > All, always and will be your best scaling stat. Below the Haste cap Haste is worth less than one half of Intellect which is WHY you should be using mixed / pure Intellect gems. Reforge to Hit cap before you stack Reforged Haste.

    USE YOUR BRAINS, stop freaking out about Haste, and do pretty much the same thing (gearing wise) we've done for the last 2+ years.


    Shadowy Love,
    Woaden


    mate,

    intellect will always be the best stat.

    yet if intellect is 1 value for damage done, and spirit/hit is 0.51

    160 intellect gem will be worse than 320 spirit gem.


    can you understand this?


    or let's just take it from a haste point of view since hitcap is a different concept,

    haste below 8085 usually ends up having above 0.5 value compared to the 1 value of intellect.


    therefore, a 320 haste gem will be better than 160 intellect in this condition.


    The current dynamics come from the existence of double value secondary stat gems.


    lets also compare a mixed gem, 80 intellect 160 haste for 0.51 value per haste will result in a worse outcome than 320 haste again.
    Last edited by Jervaise; 2012-10-22 at 01:45 PM.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Black Market Auction House?
    Ugh I am constantly forgetting that exists ><

  11. #331
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    On Spirit Meta, Haste Plateau (8085), Hit Cap:

    Any time you're facing a choice to sacrifice Intellect for Haste or Spirit / Hit: DON'T
    That's plain wrong reaching the cap,or at least getting close to it, even if sacrificing int should, be your first goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    Intellect > All, always and will be your best scaling stat. Below the Haste cap Haste is worth less than one half of Intellect which is WHY you should be using mixed / pure Intellect gems. Reforge to Hit cap before you stack Reforged Haste.
    Τhe fact that haste doesn't reach the 0.5 mark where could safely use 320haste gems doesn't mean it worth that much, since you have to do the maths regarding the additional SWP and DP ticks you're gaining at 8085, which actually adding PP on the real value of haste and probably boost it's value, below the cap, significantly.
    At least that's how i'm understanding it.

  12. #332
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    First off I was corrected over at HowToPriest.com and the Haste cap is legitimately reachable at 496 Normal gear levels. So I was wrong on the point of Needing Heroic gear to reach it. That said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaise View Post
    mate, intellect will always be the best stat. yet if intellect is 1 value for damage done, and spirit/hit is 0.51 160 intellect gem will be worse than 320 spirit gem. can you understand this? or let's just take it from a haste point of view since hitcap is a different concept, haste below 8085 usually ends up having above 0.5 value compared to the 1 value of intellect. therefore, a 320 haste gem will be better than 160 intellect in this condition. The current dynamics come from the existence of double value secondary stat gems. lets also compare a mixed gem, 80 intellect 160 haste for 0.51 value per haste will result in a worse outcome than 320 haste again.

    Where we're sitting at right now Haste is worth about .44 PP to Intellect's 1.00 PP. However people should be gearing up not using their current, actual PP values but with the understanding that Int > Hit Cap > Haste > Crit > Mastery. 320 Haste gems are not a good option unless maybe you're looking a piece with one Red and one Yellow socket and Brilliant / Quick are cheaper than two Reckless. Even then one could easily argue that Brilliant / Reckless would be the way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keosen View Post
    That's plain wrong reaching the cap,or at least getting close to it, even if sacrificing int should, be your first goal.

    Τhe fact that haste doesn't reach the 0.5 mark where could safely use 320haste gems doesn't mean it worth that much, since you have to do the maths regarding the additional SWP and DP ticks you're gaining at 8085, which actually adding PP on the real value of haste and probably boost it's value, below the cap, significantly.
    At least that's how i'm understanding it.

    The nearest Haste plateaus to 8085 (SW:P +2) are 8064 (DP +2) and 2021 (VT +1). The closest (DP +2) is so close that there's not a any discussion to be had about and the second closest happened when we were in MoP Greens. Reaching the Haste cap of 8085 Rating is only worth about ~360 PP so even if you're only substituting (best case scenario) 4 Reckless for Quick it's not actually worth it.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that Haste can be Reforged into while Intellect cannot. Below or Above Haste cap Intellect will always be your best scaling stat and reaching Haste cap outside of any Gemming that sacrifices any Intellect (ie only Reckless in Yellow, Brilliant in Red / Prismatic) is the ideal that we're shooting for.
    Last edited by Frmercury; 2012-10-23 at 06:29 AM.

  13. #333
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    Well more or less i'm not disagreeing about int>haste there is no question but i'm still not convinced that reaching the haste cap is not worth it.
    At the moment i'm experimenting and i went full haste gems, i lost a good chunk of int but i'm at 8101 haste with 471ilvl, i'll give a try for one raiding week to see how it goes since there is no better way to judge something than actually trying in in real raid situation.

    If it fails miserably i will simply go back to our mainstream gemming/gearing.

  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    Where we're sitting at right now Haste is worth about .44 PP to Intellect's 1.00 PP. However people should be gearing up not using their current, actual PP values but with the understanding that Int > Hit Cap > Haste > Crit > Mastery. 320 Haste gems are not a good option unless maybe you're looking a piece with one Red and one Yellow socket and Brilliant / Quick are cheaper than two Reckless. Even then one could easily argue that Brilliant / Reckless would be the way to go.
    Where are you coming up with .44 for Haste's PP value? Are you talking about after the 8085 break point? Because I see it listed as .7546 before that break point, which means Reckless and Quick gems are clearly better than Brilliant unless you lose a good socket bonus by gemming them.

    Quick = 320 * .7546 = 241.472
    Reckless = (80 * 1) + (160 * .7546) = 200.736
    Brilliant = 160 * 1 = 160

    Purified is also better than Brilliant for red slots by ~10 PP if you still need Hit.

  15. #335
    But who needs hit? You can always reforge. Then, you're trading Int for a lesser stat like mastery.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    First off I was corrected over at HowToPriest.com and the Haste cap is legitimately reachable at 496 Normal gear levels. So I was wrong on the point of Needing Heroic gear to reach it. That said:




    Where we're sitting at right now Haste is worth about .44 PP to Intellect's 1.00 PP. However people should be gearing up not using their current, actual PP values but with the understanding that Int > Hit Cap > Haste > Crit > Mastery. 320 Haste gems are not a good option unless maybe you're looking a piece with one Red and one Yellow socket and Brilliant / Quick are cheaper than two Reckless. Even then one could easily argue that Brilliant / Reckless would be the way to go.




    The nearest Haste plateaus to 8085 (SW:P +2) are 8064 (DP +2) and 2021 (VT +1). The closest (DP +2) is so close that there's not a any discussion to be had about and the second closest happened when we were in MoP Greens. Reaching the Haste cap of 8085 Rating is only worth about ~360 PP so even if you're only substituting (best case scenario) 4 Reckless for Quick it's not actually worth it.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that Haste can be Reforged into while Intellect cannot. Below or Above Haste cap Intellect will always be your best scaling stat and reaching Haste cap outside of any Gemming that sacrifices any Intellect (ie only Reckless in Yellow, Brilliant in Red / Prismatic) is the ideal that we're shooting for.
    Sorry but I really cant agree with what you're saying.
    Run a sim on your current gear and if, like me, haste is showing up at higher than 0.50 pp you're better off with a haste gem over an intellect gem.

    Lastly, your argument that other stats can't be reforge to intellect is moot - whatever gives you the highest return/pp value is king. Really not sure why so many people are confused about this.

  17. #337
    Don't know if this was answered already, but is it worth going for haste if you are unable to reach the 8085 haste cap? If not, what is the lower haste cap you want to go for?

  18. #338
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Yes, it's been answered before. Yes, you should prioritise haste over crit and mastery.
    {[( )]}

  19. #339
    Hi again! Another question.

    In my last simcraft, VT has a 78K Damage per Execute Time, while SWP has 57k.

    When fighting against 3 or 4 targets, I always used to select a target, cast VT + SWP, then switch target and repeat these actions. But considering their DPET, I wonder if it would be better to select a target, cast VT, switch target, cast VT, etc until every single target had VT and then do the same but with SWP.

    What do you think?

    Excuse my poor english. I hope you understand my point.

  20. #340
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    @Haste:

    Look through Twin's Sims in depth for the different profiles and values pre and post 8085 and how they are combined / averaged to come up with the two sets of PP values we're currently using. While saying that Haste is worth ~0.45 PP is somewhat of a quantified statement in general it is more accurate than abiding by Haste PP values greater than 0.50 PP in my opinion.

    Sacrificing Primary stats for Secondary ones is almost never a good idea from a scaling standpoint.

    Besides this conversation will be moot in another month or so when we're getting Haste capped 'legitimately' from almost gear alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarc View Post
    Hi again! Another question.

    When fighting against 3 or 4 targets, I always used to select a target, cast VT + SWP, then switch target and repeat these actions. But considering their DPET, I wonder if it would be better to select a target, cast VT, switch target, cast VT, etc until every single target had VT and then do the same but with SWP.

    What do you think?

    Excuse my poor english. I hope you understand my point.
    A general guideline for Multiple target Damage over Time would be to use both VT + SW:P on 2-3 targets. If you have to choose between using just one Damage over Time spell on a target you should choose SW:P because it takes less time to cast, has a longer duration and you have more flexibility in movement while casting SW:P over VT which has a cast time.
    Last edited by Frmercury; 2012-10-24 at 05:38 PM.

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