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  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Just to expand on this a bit... you do want your dots up as much as possible. However, if your choice is either renewing sw:p/VT or casting MB/DP... you let the dot drop and cast MB or MB and DP (the 3rd MB should always be immediately followed by DP) before recasting the dot.
    Yeah, that's what I figured when I was looking at priority spells, but anyhow, thanks for all the info
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  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Just to expand on this a bit... you do want your dots up as much as possible. However, if your choice is either renewing sw:p/VT or casting MB/DP... you let the dot drop and cast MB or MB and DP (the 3rd MB should always be immediately followed by DP) before recasting the dot.
    No need actually to cast DP immediately after MB because you won't be able to cast another DP for a while so there's no need to cast it ASAP. You better cast the MB, then redot the expiring dots and THEN cast DP.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarc View Post
    No need actually to cast DP immediately after MB because you won't be able to cast another DP for a while so there's no need to cast it ASAP. You better cast the MB, then redot the expiring dots and THEN cast DP.
    Waiting to cast DP can delay Shadow Orb generation. You may get a DI proc, or be able to cast SW: D. If you don't cast DP right away, and get one of those procs, you'll be delaying a Shadow Orb by at least a GCD.

  4. #444
    First, you got to have the DI talent. Second, the chance to get the DI proc while you're refreshing VT or SWP or both of them is quite small. So cast DP asap if you want to. I won't ^^

  5. #445
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Priorities:
    There is no set 'rotation' for Shadow DPS, rather a hierarchy of spell priorities:

    #1 - DP with SOx3
    #2 - MB on CD, especially DI procs
    #3 - SW x2 below 20%
    #4 - Halo / Cascade
    #5 - MSp (FDCL)
    #6 - SW:P / VT


    MF when you don't have anything else to do

    Try to use DPS cooldowns early and often only storing them up for Bloodlust / Heroism / Time Warp or Burn Phases.


    'Complex' Priorities:
    Alright, that was the SIMPLE version. With our current talents, abilities and mechanics there are many intricacies that the 'real' priorities list has a lot of qualifiers. Here you go:

    Devouring Plague:
    Because you only need to recast DPx3 before you generate your next SO you can do things such as refreshing DoTs or Halo or Shadowfiend... etc before you use this as long as it's cast before your next SO generator comes off CD. However if you spec into DI you should cast DPx3 immediately when it comes up in case you get a DI proc. The ONLY time you should use this with 2 SOs is if you currently have a temporarily high level of damage buffs that will expire before you generate your 3rd SO.

    Mind Blast:
    On CD, there is not any qualifier for this as unless you're currently casting a DPx3 this will be the most important spell to cast. More MBs in an encounter will likely be the best way improve your DPS.

    Shadow Word: Death:
    Now here is where the 'rotational' priorities get complex. Your FIRST SW cast in execute range will generate a SO and it will also reset the CD on SW allowing you to cast it a second time. This second SW will NOT generate a SO and is therefor lower on priority. You can think of the 1st SW = MB, while the 2nd SW is still a high priority you will often find yourself delaying it to cast MB or DPx3.

    Mind Spike:
    Proc'd to be free, instant cast and not to remove DoTs through FDCL. This can stack up to 2 times making the 2 stack MSp MUCH more important than the 1 stack MSp. Practically this translates into the 2 stack of MSp falling just below MB and SW, but the 1 stack of MSp falling below DoT refreshes with less than ~2 seconds left on duration / Halo / Shadowfiend / Mindbender.

    Halo / Cascade:
    Should be used pretty much only at the optimal distance as displayed by Halo Pro. For the average encounter you will not likely see a +/- 1 use of Halo or if you do not cast it exactly on CD, besides it's much better to hold onto it until a decent break in your rotation and you're at the proper distance.

    For Cascade you want to save it for when you know it will hit multiple 'optimally' spread targets. This means multiple mobs far away from each other. Like in WotE when both Strengths and Rages are up, or in Elegon when Protector / Sparks / Foci are up.

    Shadowfiend / Mindbender:
    Similar to Halo you should find a decent break in your rotation to cast this. Also make sure that whatever you cast it on will be alive and damageable for the full duration.

  6. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    Priorities:
    There is no set 'rotation' for Shadow DPS, rather a hierarchy of spell priorities:

    #1 - DP with SOx3
    #2 - MB on CD, especially DI procs
    #3 - SW x2 below 20%
    #4 - Halo / Cascade
    #5 - MSp (FDCL)
    #6 - SW:P / VT


    MF when you don't have anything else to do

    Try to use DPS cooldowns early and often only storing them up for Bloodlust / Heroism / Time Warp or Burn Phases.


    'Complex' Priorities:
    Alright, that was the SIMPLE version. With our current talents, abilities and mechanics there are many intricacies that the 'real' priorities list has a lot of qualifiers. Here you go:

    Devouring Plague:
    Because you only need to recast DPx3 before you generate your next SO you can do things such as refreshing DoTs or Halo or Shadowfiend... etc before you use this as long as it's cast before your next SO generator comes off CD. However if you spec into DI you should cast DPx3 immediately when it comes up in case you get a DI proc. The ONLY time you should use this with 2 SOs is if you currently have a temporarily high level of damage buffs that will expire before you generate your 3rd SO.

    Mind Blast:
    On CD, there is not any qualifier for this as unless you're currently casting a DPx3 this will be the most important spell to cast. More MBs in an encounter will likely be the best way improve your DPS.

    Shadow Word: Death:
    Now here is where the 'rotational' priorities get complex. Your FIRST SW cast in execute range will generate a SO and it will also reset the CD on SW allowing you to cast it a second time. This second SW will NOT generate a SO and is therefor lower on priority. You can think of the 1st SW = MB, while the 2nd SW is still a high priority you will often find yourself delaying it to cast MB or DPx3.

    Mind Spike:
    Proc'd to be free, instant cast and not to remove DoTs through FDCL. This can stack up to 2 times making the 2 stack MSp MUCH more important than the 1 stack MSp. Practically this translates into the 2 stack of MSp falling just below MB and SW, but the 1 stack of MSp falling below DoT refreshes with less than ~2 seconds left on duration / Halo / Shadowfiend / Mindbender.

    Halo / Cascade:
    Should be used pretty much only at the optimal distance as displayed by Halo Pro. For the average encounter you will not likely see a +/- 1 use of Halo or if you do not cast it exactly on CD, besides it's much better to hold onto it until a decent break in your rotation and you're at the proper distance.

    For Cascade you want to save it for when you know it will hit multiple 'optimally' spread targets. This means multiple mobs far away from each other. Like in WotE when both Strengths and Rages are up, or in Elegon when Protector / Sparks / Foci are up.

    Shadowfiend / Mindbender:
    Similar to Halo you should find a decent break in your rotation to cast this. Also make sure that whatever you cast it on will be alive and damageable for the full duration.
    Again, all of your info is much appreciated. Specially I had doubts about using second SW-D in execution phase as I realized only first SW-D generates and orb.
    For my spec, I picked up Mindbender which I try to use with all my procs but also I try not to delay it too much. Do you think FDCL is stronger talent than Mindbender ? Or it depends from fight to fight ?

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 11:11 PM ----------

    I forgot to ask one thing- how good or bad is recasting dots (if fight allows me) when I get int procs ( Lightweave , Jade Spirit , trinkets ) ? Is it a dps gain or loss and should I completely avoid it ?
    Last edited by Khas; 2012-12-29 at 09:38 AM.
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  7. #447
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Fight to fight on FDCL / Mindbender

    In general just refresh DoTs between the second to last and last ticks.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    Priorities:
    Shadow Word: Death:
    Now here is where the 'rotational' priorities get complex. Your FIRST SW cast in execute range will generate a SO and it will also reset the CD on SW allowing you to cast it a second time. This second SW will NOT generate a SO and is therefor lower on priority. You can think of the 1st SW = MB, while the 2nd SW is still a high priority you will often find yourself delaying it to cast MB or DPx3.
    Delaying the second SW: D delays the CD, meaning you'll delay the next shadow orb it generates. Always hit SW: D twice, there's no good reason to ever delay the second one.

  9. #449
    fresh lvl 90 here, with my heroic gear, it is impossible to reach 8085 haste rating right now, should i still reforge to haste or go for crit while maintaining 2021 haste for the 1st breakpoints?

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by zolakt View Post
    fresh lvl 90 here, with my heroic gear, it is impossible to reach 8085 haste rating right now, should i still reforge to haste or go for crit while maintaining 2021 haste for the 1st breakpoints?
    To answer this question for sure, you would have to run your character through simulationcraft. However, in most cases haste will always be your best stat until you reach 8085. So even if you can't reach that number, you should still be trying to get as much haste as you can.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Urumii View Post
    To answer this question for sure, you would have to run your character through simulationcraft. However, in most cases haste will always be your best stat until you reach 8085. So even if you can't reach that number, you should still be trying to get as much haste as you can.
    in my sim, this is the result i got: Int > SP > Spi = Hit > Crit > Haste > Mastery. guess i should be going crit till i can get 8085 haste then

  12. #452
    Mechagnome Honkeymagoo's Avatar
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    I was going through the 5.2 thread and read a couple comments that made me wonder if I'm clipping my mind flays at the wrong time. I've always tried to get the next tick of my flays off after my MB/SW: D comes off cd. Should I be spamming my orb generators as they're coming off cd regardless of where my mind flay cast is or should I continue casting them immediately after a tick?

  13. #453
    Mindflay sucks so much nowadays that I'd say clip it ASAP. But I'm just a regular player, not a theorycrafter.

  14. #454
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarc View Post
    Mindflay sucks so much nowadays that I'd say clip it ASAP. But I'm just a regular player, not a theorycrafter.
    I'd pretty much agree. The bigger risk though with clipping MF for all MB/Death's - just a little warning I guess - is the GCD - DI procs and Death's can come off cooldown so often that you may be able to get a tick in before the gcd ends - in which case your gaining DPS to wait for the tick. Outside of that, just DI/Death/MB immediately IMO.
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  15. #455
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    A tip someone gave few days ago was to immediately double cast MF in cases where that would get the GCD 'out of the way'.

  16. #456
    Brewmaster xindykawai's Avatar
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    im not sure, should i use mindbender of shadowfeing !
    or i keep from drakness comes light, since it is pretty good
    Last edited by xindykawai; 2013-01-12 at 05:40 PM.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    A tip someone gave few days ago was to immediately double cast MF in cases where that would get the GCD 'out of the way'.
    Proper GCD micromanagement is something that I believe really sets apart an amazing Shadow Priest from a good one. To time your VT cast when your Mind Blast cooldown has exactly 1 GCD left and then instantly cast Mind Blast is really neat. Not getting locked in a GCD when you need to SWD etc.

    Very few people think about doing these stuff, and they shouldn't either because it isn't that important but if you are really good, this micromanagement will add more complexitiy to your class and make it more fun, in my opinion. Too bad I haven't seen a Shadow Priest that does this though.

  18. #458
    Recasting mf to make it line up properly isn't that complex (but very strange that most sp's don't), most of the time there's no reason 'not to' (obviously unless you have something else to cast), but small things like that does make shadow a bit more interesting (if you just follow mercury's order shadows single target 'rotation' isn't very interesting). Something I've been wondering a bit about lately (as I've been forced to play more shadow) is how you guys track the first/second SW. Since the second SW has a significantly lower priority than the first (and you don't want to use the second e.g. 4-5 seconds later since it won't generate a second orb, but rather delay it a bit more) there are situations where you simply don't want to cast the second (due to higher priority spells/movement) and wait for the orb generating SW to come back up. I've mostly been using 'feeling' to get the timing right for this but is there anyone who has an addon to track this? Anyone who has done the math on how far delayed the second sw:d has to be for it to be worth delaying it for the entire 6 seconds (this is obviously a bit more complex than it seems at first glance, since the second sw:d use normally has a higher prio/should be used quicker than just the damage indicate, purely to get orb sw:d back off cd asap)?

    I'm also a bit curious about the priority to recast dots on multiple targets vs flcd procs with two stacks. If you follow the normal priority the result (with many targets) will usually be that you are left with some targets without full dots for the majority of the fight (in return for more flcd usages). Since one dot cast is more damage than one flcd cast this obviously means that using the normal priority is a dps loss. The easiest solution is to not use both proc talents on fights with multiple targets, but this is also where they are the strongest so hardly a viable option in most cases, so at how many targets do you chose to prioritize recasting dots above a 2 stacked flcd (assuming both proc talents)?

  19. #459
    Since the second SW has a significantly lower priority than the first
    I honestly fail to see why you would ever delay the second SW: D.

    I'm also a bit curious about the priority to recast dots on multiple targets vs flcd procs with two stacks. If you follow the normal priority the result (with many targets) will usually be that you are left with some targets without full dots for the majority of the fight (in return for more flcd usages). Since one dot cast is more damage than one flcd cast this obviously means that using the normal priority is a dps loss. The easiest solution is to not use both proc talents on fights with multiple targets, but this is also where they are the strongest so hardly a viable option in most cases, so at how many targets do you chose to prioritize recasting dots above a 2 stacked flcd (assuming both proc talents)?
    Casting dots is higher priority than FDLC procs, period. DPCT is much higher for dots. Of course, this assumes dots will run for their full duration.

    I don't see what you mean about both proc talents being strongest on multi-target fights. DI is actually inferior to Twist of Faith on most multi-dotting fights in this tier (Elegon, WotE, Amber Shaper allow for stupidly high uptime on ToF)

  20. #460
    I honestly fail to see why you would ever delay the second SW: D.
    Multiple DI procs, as an example, or if the boss happens to be immune or a simlair mechanic after the first sw:d.

    Casting dots is higher priority than FDLC procs, period. DPCT is much higher for dots. Of course, this assumes dots will run for their full duration.

    I don't see what you mean about both proc talents being strongest on multi-target fights. DI is actually inferior to Twist of Faith on most multi-dotting fights in this tier (Elegon, WotE, Amber Shaper allow for stupidly high uptime on ToF)
    On single (and possibly 2 targets, that's the question) using a 2 stacked/about to expire flcd proc is more important than refreshing the dots since the damage loss from potentially (or if expiring almost certainly) losing it is bigger than the slight damage you lose by the dots not being up for a sec. With adds ToF is prefered yes, but there are multidot fights without them as well where this "problem" is amplified (the "problem" still exists with ToF).
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-01-15 at 05:54 AM.

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