View Poll Results: True Capitalism or True Communism?

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  • Capitalism

    92 34.98%
  • Communism

    171 65.02%
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  1. #21
    True communism is a paradise, where everyone works to their full potential and shares all the fruits of their labor. Some people are better than others, but it averages out for the betterment of a society as a whole.

    Real communism is where people don't perform to their fullest, because they know it won't matter in the long run, and a few corrupt individuals take advantage of the system and receive more than their fair share.

    True capitalism rewards people for their relative accomplishments. Those who work and perform higher than others are rewarded accordingly.

    Real capitalism rewards the people who can take other people's hard work, market it, sell it, and then pocket 90% of the proceedings, all because they merely facilitated someone else's hard work.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    That is what "true" is for....
    so please, tell me, what exactly is it about capitalism that is.. cool?
    I'm so glad you asked! Virtually everything is cool about capitalism.
    1. Capitalism allows people to achieve financial success through hard work, intelligence, or many different talents.
    2. It provides massive abundance of goods to consumers at the best possible prices with many choices.

    This means when you want something, but don't want to make it yourself (or you may not even have the skills), you can simply buy it on the open market. If lots of people want something, someone will go make because they want to make a profit from selling it. And poof, the item people desire appears, as if by magic. This is how I got my iphone, all of my food, clothes, tv, etc. If people don't have the profit motive, there's no reason to provide all the goods and varieties of goods. The variety of goods is important because this has products compete, so that they will improve.

    3. The loaning of capital and shared ownership via such methods as stock provide 2 massive benefits. It helps the borrowers or share sellers in that they are able to get funds to start or improve a business. It helps the loaner or share buyer in that they are able to get a return on their capital without having to work in a business. The ability to take a good idea, or even simply a strong work ethic, borrow some money, and build a business that provides something that someone wants is the core of capitalism. If they provide something people want, the business owner makes money, the loaner makes money, and consumer gets something they want.

    The problems with "true capitalism" are that there is no motivation to protect the environment or shared resources and that monopolies sometimes develop. These are pretty much the main points that should be regulated by government.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-06 at 01:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    Not for most people. There's a reason we don't have True capitalism anymore.
    I agree we have very little "true capitalism" in the US anymore. But we should have MORE!
    Regulation kills many small businesses, and only the large companies can hire enough lawyers to actually comply.
    And small business formation is the absolute core of capitalism, and the best job creator.

    I said in my other post that capitalism benefits the hard working, intelligent and talented. And that is true, but you're right in that it doesn't benefit everyone.
    The less intelligent, non-talented, and non-hard working do very poorly under true capitalism. But they can always work harder to have more success. And I think that's good and right. You get back from what you provide to others.

    There's a reason the US was known as the land of opportunity. Immigrants often came here from countries where they had no chance to advance, and made themselves wealthy. This is less true today because the US is far less capitalistic.

  3. #23
    In the end true capitalism and true communism end up being the same. In true capitalism, each person would act in their own self interest. and it would eventually become iin their self interest to help their neighbors, if only so that the other people could in return help them; so even though you are acting in your own self interest instead of the interest of a greater commune, you still end up helping your neighbors succeed so that you too may succeed.

  4. #24
    Both end horribly. Communism always ends like the USSR and NK, and true capitalism eventually causes feudalism to occur.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-06 at 02:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vainglorious View Post
    I agree we have very little "true capitalism" in the US anymore. But we should have MORE!
    Regulation kills many small businesses, and only the large companies can hire enough lawyers to actually comply.
    And small business formation is the absolute core of capitalism, and the best job creator.

    I said in my other post that capitalism benefits the hard working, intelligent and talented. And that is true, but you're right in that it doesn't benefit everyone.
    The less intelligent, non-talented, and non-hard working do very poorly under true capitalism. But they can always work harder to have more success. And I think that's good and right. You get back from what you provide to others.

    There's a reason the US was known as the land of opportunity. Immigrants often came here from countries where they had no chance to advance, and made themselves wealthy. This is less true today because the US is far less capitalistic.
    In "true capitalism" you start out with an open market with lots of small players trying to compete. Often times by doing things beneficial to the consumer, like lowering prices or upping the quality of the product. Eventually a small number of the original business pull ahead and the others are forced to close, then the survivors compete with each other, and eventually either one survives and forms a monopoly, or they combine to form a trust.
    You then get a powerful group of monopolies and trusts from all over the market, from steel production, to car manufacturing, and after 2-3 generations they eventually grow more powerful than the government and are headed by obscenely wealthy individuals.
    Then capitalism becomes the government and these those monopolies and trusts start trying to move in on each others territories and markets. Mercenaries and spies are hired to commit espionage or outright war against other corporations, and strike breakers are brought in to keep the people from revolting or slowing production.
    Eventually the heads of these monstrosities are worth more than small countries and they begin granting positions of power and wealth to subordinates.

    Thus, Feudalism rears its ugly head. And once it gets to that point, unless you were born to a family that helped start the corporation, or you have a mind for inventing things or getting into high places, your stuck as a serf at the bottom with 90% of the rest of the population.
    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." -Paul Krugman

  5. #25
    I don't think capitalism leads to feudalism but it does lead to monopolies and trusts. Feudalism is an exercise in corruption and setting limits on markets. Hence why you need protections for capitalism.

    The three main things you needs for capitalism to thrive are:
    1. Impartial rule of law, and enforcement of contracts. ie, police to prevent looting and judges to make sure contracts are honored.
    2. Limits on monopolies, trusts and the like. The US had to deal with a variety of trusts in the late 1800s, and still has to deal with it sometimes today. There are laws in most districts on "price fixing" and collusion.
    3. Protection of the common areas. ie, if you're fishing from the ocean, you can't take ALL of the fish out.

    I think there's a huge misconception that rich people or companies want to make the masses poor. That's not true at all. They want the masses to HAVE money so they can buy the stuff they're selling. Capitalism raises the effective standard of living of most everyone who lives under it, making the poor in capitalistic countries usually vastly better off than those in most other countries. The abundance of goods at affordable prices improves peoples lives.

  6. #26
    If it was completely true, and perfectly legitimate, then I'd take the communism. Only because I hate capitalism more than rapists.


  7. #27
    When monopolies form you get obscenely wealthy individuals who set limits on markets and make it impossible for competition to grow. If it wasn't for TR, Taft, and Wilson, the Rockefeller's would literally own america today.
    I think there's a huge misconception that rich people or companies want to make the masses poor. That's not true at all. They want the masses to HAVE money so they can buy the stuff they're selling. Capitalism raises the effective standard of living of most everyone who lives under it, making the poor in capitalistic countries usually vastly better off than those in most other countries. The abundance of goods at affordable prices improves peoples lives.
    If that was true then foxxcon wouldn't be paying the people who make Ipads in china 1.75$ an hour. Basically enslaving a country or a large cross section of a countries social underclass who wouldn't be able to buy the good their making anyways so you can sell to the rest of the world market is the name of the game.
    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." -Paul Krugman

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Defengar View Post
    the Rockefeller's would literally own america today.
    Honestly, I'd love to see how different it'd be if they did own it, or any of the older families. I wonder if it'd be better or worse.


  9. #29
    How about trying to create a new system? Instead of sticking to two ideas one of which sucks, the other does not work.

  10. #30
    I chose both. Everything is purely profit based, then the government takes the profits and distributes them.

    /compromise/
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Mynta Vali Daseriu View Post
    Honestly, I'd love to see how different it'd be if they did own it, or any of the older families. I wonder if it'd be better or worse.
    We would literally be china.
    Making commercial goods for the rest of the world on barely a living wage while a small group of people at the top would be worth trillions.
    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." -Paul Krugman

  12. #32
    Assuming both would be true and absolute, communism all the way. 200%.

    True capitalism is brutal and unforgiving. It's why almost all countries are moving to the way of communism, without actually be communist/socialist.

    It is far better for us to work together, rather then working for our selves and for a single individual.

  13. #33
    Warchief Velthy's Avatar
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    True communism. With the wise and good leader, its much better than democracy.

    Signature made by my best friend Aryiana.

  14. #34
    High Overlord Blur's Avatar
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    Capitalism grows corruption which destroys countrie's economy. Capitalism can only exist in few current countries. That is why we are having economical problems. People are dark mass that do not care about anything else but themselves so planned economy is a great choice to force them to contribute.
    "Only bad thing about internet quotes is that you never know if they are genuine." - Abraham Lincoln.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opiatesofsilicon View Post
    How about trying to create a new system? Instead of sticking to two ideas one of which sucks, the other does not work.
    I don't think there that much other possibilities^^

    Let everyone do what the fuck he wants and let everybody be responsible for himself and only for himself or to distribute everthing that way, that everyone has the same amount of everything.

    As both "ideals" are never reached, all countries are somewhere in between. And believe me for example North Korea or the USSR wouldn't be the most "communistic" countries. I guess some European welfare countries are way nearer to the ideal of communism. And that isn't a bad thing per se.

  16. #36
    Communism is 'supposed' to go alongside a democratic government. It isn't really much of a communism when used by dictators.
    Just wanted to throw out there within the first two pages that you'll likely find some people who are 'yay communism' who don't mean anything like any communisms that we've actually seen. A dictator or other poor form of government abusing an ideology in an unsustainable way in order to maximize control is a ridicules ‘test’ of what many people say when they mean and think communism.

    Again, not necessarily wanting to promote communism just get this out of the way so that a more reasonable conversation can happen if any Marxists show up. Shooting down a Marxist simply because the soviets failed is a truly sad assertion and it shuts down potentially interesting and fulfilling conversations.

  17. #37
    True communism is too good to be true. It's an utopistic system. It might exist out there, somewhere, but human beugns aren't capable of it.

    Total capitalism, on the other hand, is a system where the few are the winners, and the rest are powerless. It is also an impossible system, because the vast majority of people will be unhappy. And when that happens, the winners of yesterday tend to be the lynched of today, and the system is changed.

    In short, anyone voting for capitalism has to either be extremely masochistic, or severely shortsighted.

    Of course, since both systems are inherently incompatible with human nature, the best answer is found from somewhere in between. Certain european nations seem to be the ones who've gotten closest to nailing it. But from given options, it should not even be a question. Communism is such an blatantly obvious answer it's not even a contest.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by kivipää View Post
    Total capitalism, on the other hand, is a system where the few are the winners, and the rest are powerless. It is also an impossible system, because the vast majority of people will be unhappy. And when that happens, the winners of yesterday tend to be the lynched of today, and the system is changed.
    God damn man. That quote. It really is amazing. I just found my self a new signature.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Vainglorious View Post
    The less intelligent, non-talented, and non-hard working do very poorly under true capitalism. But they can always work harder to have more success. And I think that's good and right. You get back from what you provide to others.
    The problem is that some people can't, like the mentally ill and disabled. I feel like the point of having a sophisticated society is to help the ones that wouldn't otherwise make it. In True Capitalism who is going to sacrifise/dedicate some of their wealth and profit to help those who can't help themselves?
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    Tomatoes are vegetables, water doesn't hydrate you, the world is falling a part....

  20. #40
    I think only people that never actually *lived* under communism can wish for it, true form or not.
    I have lived in communism.
    It became a horrible dictatorship.

    That didnt happen because people here are innately stupid or barbaric or rude or evil. Do you think that it started here as under ideas of Dictatorship? No, it didnt. It started with the Utopian idea(l)s that people can work for themselves, that everyone should have equal, that the state should be a means to do good.. It was also enforced by a horrible civil war under the guise of a world war.

    In 40 years, big companies were built and destroyed completely because their "CEOs" were political appointees who didnt care about losses/gains, since they were only politically responsible to keep paying workers and saying the right ideological things on TV. They cared about having huge salaries and benefits, they cared about employing their whole families, and their family's friends, so they can have the votes of the "workers". Companies operated under 5 year plans, which tried to control things that were not controllable. Or assume that in 5 years everything will be the same.

    To keep paying workers the state printed money. Why wouldnt they? There was no democratic control. why? Because in Communism, there is no democracy. You are either with us or against us. There is one party, because, "omfg, you either love people and workers and you belong to Communists, or you are an evil capitalist pig".

    You can choose to ignore the terrors that were happening in Soviet Union (Russia+other independent countries now) and Eastern Europe during and post Communism, or what is still happening in the world under Communist rules, and think: "In a true democracy, the terrors would never happen". This is where you would be wrong: give it 50 years and see what Communism does to *any* democracy.

    After living 2/3 of my life under Communism and post-Communism, I value political and economical freedom. Those that take it for granted, dont know how big a deal it really is. I hope you never learn.
    Last edited by jouissance; 2012-07-06 at 09:09 AM.

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