Thread: NA ping as EU?

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  1. #41
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jigain View Post
    Frankfurt, most likely.
    Correct.

    ...

  2. #42
    Stood in the Fire incarcerated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    It's similar to getting 60 fps for the first time. Once you have it, you never go back. It's that way with latency as well. 150+ is fine if that's all you know, but once you taste the sweet delight that is 50 ms, nothing else will do.
    I'm sitting on an insane 12 ms fiberoptic 50Mb/s connection and have been for 2 years. In 2 weeks I'm going home to a 200-300ms 2-3MB/s capped line... Gods help me :<
    But yeah its like high fps / dual monitor / *insert gaming experience enhancer*. You simply can't get used to a bad ping when you've had a great one for more than 2-3 weeks.

    OP: I'm getting a 240-ish ping in Northern England with fiberoptic so depends on your line and where in the EU you live really, but don't expect much less than 200.

  3. #43
    Scarab Lord Loaf Lord's Avatar
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    I'd KILL for fiber optics. I want it so bad.

  4. #44
    Stood in the Fire incarcerated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roggles View Post
    I'd KILL for fiber optics. I want it so bad.
    It is amazing. As soon as I can, I'm moving back to somewhere that has it. My life would be incomplete without that sweet sweet 10-20ms... my record ms was 8 on WoW which is better than some peoples screens

  5. #45
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    While human reaction speed is indeed slower, human DETECTION speed is faster. So while you won't react that fast, it will slow down your total reaction time as it will slow down the initial part of reaction, detection by some time.
    I think you've got it a little bit of the wrong way around there. Both vision and movement require more than 50-100ms.

    On average, it takes ~150ms for the human brain to register something is moving, ~200ms (+50ms) to identify what, in which manner, and how it affects you, and then ~350ms (+150ms) to react to it. This is not additive, of course, so the final number to react to something is ~350ms after it happens.

    You are correct, however, that 100ms latency slows down your reaction time significantly, considering latency occurs before the brain registers something is moving, effectively adding the latency duration on top of the reaction time.

    Of course, all of the above numbers are averages. Reaction speed varies from person to person, and can also be significantly reduced if you're actively watching for something specific (in other words, expecting a specific outcome and having a countermeasure ready).

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigain View Post
    You are correct, however, that 100ms latency slows down your reaction time significantly, considering latency occurs before the brain registers something is moving, effectively adding the latency duration on top of the reaction time.
    Yes its a double whammy. An extra 100ms before you notice it, and an extra 100ms when your reaction comes into effect. Thats 200ms total, added to the delay.

  7. #47
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrahero View Post
    Yes its a double whammy. An extra 100ms before you notice it, and an extra 100ms when your reaction comes into effect. Thats 200ms total, added to the delay.
    No, your local reaction time remains the same.

    Or did you mean the time to send your response to the server? In that case I can agree.

  8. #48
    At a guess, it'll be about the same as it is on the beta.

    Personally, I think the response time on that is complete crap, but if they like it then so be it.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigain View Post
    I think you've got it a little bit of the wrong way around there. Both vision and movement require more than 50-100ms.

    On average, it takes ~150ms for the human brain to register something is moving, ~200ms (+50ms) to identify what, in which manner, and how it affects you, and then ~350ms (+150ms) to react to it. This is not additive, of course, so the final number to react to something is ~350ms after it happens.

    You are correct, however, that 100ms latency slows down your reaction time significantly, considering latency occurs before the brain registers something is moving, effectively adding the latency duration on top of the reaction time.

    Of course, all of the above numbers are averages. Reaction speed varies from person to person, and can also be significantly reduced if you're actively watching for something specific (in other words, expecting a specific outcome and having a countermeasure ready).
    If we were looking at those kinds of times for basic detection, humans would have been long extinct as there's no way we'd be able to compete with other animals.

    Fact is, our detection speed is very fast, essentially only marginally slower then neural impulse entering relevant brain centre. Biggest part of reaction is in fact cognitive data processing of stimulus and decision making on what to do about this stimulus. This is easily proven through reflexive action, which in fact does not require cognitive decision making as it is "hard wired" either in spinal cord or lower level command areas of the brain without any need of cognition. A fairly common test is how fast human will raise the hand off a heated oven plate upon accidentally hitting it. The speed is essentially equal to neural impulse going from hand to spinal cord and immediately bouncing back as a muscle command neural impulse going to relevant muscles. These impulses are high priority for evolutionary reasons, and travel at speeds around 110-120m/s (long myelin tubes, few chemical transition points) unlike higher thought process impulses required for decision making, that travel only at around 30m/s (short myelin tubes, many chemical transition points). Eye signal recognition speeds are extremely fast due to extremely short travel time of optical signal directly to relevant brain centre and multiple reflexive links that centre allows (for evolutionary reasons such as turning eyeballs switching focus vision to objects moving at peripheral vision so that painfully slow cognitive process gets the relevant data long before it can process and formulate the command link "object in peripheral vision, move eyeballs to track movement in focus").
    This is a survival trait common is essentially all vertebrae.

    One of the most important points of training for skilled players is getting reflexive reaction speeds rather then cognitive reaction speeds on many basic gameplay stimuli. This is why for example for latency of 50ms and 150ms, difference of 100ms which may seem theoretically undetectable to a cognitive human reaction in fact produces a meaningfully significant delay when reaction is a trained reflexive response rather then a cognitive one.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigain View Post
    No, your local reaction time remains the same.

    Or did you mean the time to send your response to the server? In that case I can agree.
    The second.

    First a delay from server to you, telling you X happend (ping related). Then the delay where you process (non-ping related). And then another delay where you send your response to the server (ping related).

  11. #51
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    If we were looking at those kinds of times for basic detection, humans would have been long extinct as there's no way we'd be able to compete with other animals.

    Fact is, our detection speed is very fast, essentially only marginally slower then neural impulse entering relevant brain centre. Biggest part of reaction is in fact cognitive data processing of stimulus and decision making on what to do about this stimulus. This is easily proven through reflexive action, which in fact does not require cognitive decision making as it is "hard wired" either in spinal cord or lower level command areas of the brain without any need of cognition. A fairly common test is how fast human will raise the hand off a heated oven plate upon accidentally hitting it. The speed is essentially equal to neural impulse going from hand to spinal cord and immediately bouncing back as a muscle command neural impulse going to relevant muscles. These impulses are high priority for evolutionary reasons, and travel at speeds around 110-120m/s (long myelin tubes, few chemical transition points) unlike higher thought process impulses required for decision making, that travel only at around 30m/s (short myelin tubes, many chemical transition points). Eye signal recognition speeds are extremely fast due to extremely short travel time of optical signal directly to relevant brain centre and multiple reflexive links that centre allows (for evolutionary reasons such as turning eyeballs switching focus vision to objects moving at peripheral vision so that painfully slow cognitive process gets the relevant data long before it can process and formulate the command link "object in peripheral vision, move eyeballs to track movement in focus").
    This is a survival trait common is essentially all vertebrae.

    One of the most important points of training for skilled players is getting reflexive reaction speeds rather then cognitive reaction speeds on many basic gameplay stimuli. This is why for example for latency of 50ms and 150ms, difference of 100ms which may seem theoretically undetectable to a cognitive human reaction in fact produces a meaningfully significant delay when reaction is a trained reflexive response rather then a cognitive one.
    What you're talking about there is a withdrawal reflex, to perform an action on pure reflex to protect your tissue from physical harm. It cannot be applied to protecting a digital character on a computer screen from harm (I really shouldn't have to state that). The withdrawal reflex has nothing to do with visual detection, so it's entirely out of place in the discussion. Moreover, the withdrawal reflex cannot be trained (or trained away, for that matter). I don't know who said that to you, but if you paid them for it, I would encourage you demand a refund.

    For more light reading on reaction speed (which is, once again, not the same as reflex speed), I recommend an excellent article by Michael Posner named Timing the Brain: Mental Chronometry as a Tool in Neuroscience.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-10 at 09:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by terrahero View Post
    The second.

    First a delay from server to you, telling you X happend (ping related). Then the delay where you process (non-ping related). And then another delay where you send your response to the server (ping related).
    Yeah, then you are absolutely correct.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigain View Post
    What you're talking about there is a withdrawal reflex, to perform an action on pure reflex to protect your tissue from physical harm. It cannot be applied to protecting a digital character on a computer screen from harm (I really shouldn't have to state that). The withdrawal reflex has nothing to do with visual detection, so it's entirely out of place in the discussion. Moreover, the withdrawal reflex cannot be trained (or trained away, for that matter). I don't know who said that to you, but if you paid them for it, I would encourage you demand a refund.
    I was talking about training for reflexive action, which happens when our brain adapts for repetition of certain actions by vastly optimizing its performance to non-cognitive reflexive level. A good example of such is a very complex action of walking. When child is born, it has zero knowledge of how to walk. Even after developing necessary musculature, it still has no idea how to walk. First it learns to do so cognitively, through very complex process of trial and error that takes months. After that, our brain optimizes the process to non-cognitive one, where we no longer have to think about walking. The optimized pathways will handle the extremely complex process of biped walking which we still struggle to make to work properly in robotics after decades of focused development without any cognitive input.

    So while you're correct that specific reflexive withdrawal cannot be taught (due to originating in spinal cord), general REFLEXIVE ACTION can (generated in brain). It's what our brain does very well and is another evolutionary trait present in most vertebrae. It's chief purpose is to allow minimization of data contained in DNA. I used reflexive withdrawal as an example of learned reflexive action. If you need one that is learned, try walking or running.

  13. #53
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    I was talking about training for reflexive action, which happens when our brain adapts for repetition of certain actions by vastly optimizing its performance to non-cognitive reflexive level. A good example of such is a very complex action of walking. When child is born, it has zero knowledge of how to walk. Even after developing necessary musculature, it still has no idea how to walk. First it learns to do so cognitively, through very complex process of trial and error that takes months. After that, our brain optimizes the process to non-cognitive one, where we no longer have to think about walking. The optimized pathways will handle the extremely complex process of biped walking which we still struggle to make to work properly in robotics after decades of focused development without any cognitive input.

    So while you're correct that specific reflexive withdrawal cannot be taught (due to originating in spinal cord), general REFLEXIVE ACTION can (generated in brain). It's what our brain does very well and is another evolutionary trait present in most vertebrae. It's chief purpose is to allow minimization of data contained in DNA. I used reflexive withdrawal as an example of learned reflexive action. If you need one that is learned, try walking or running.
    Ehehe... cute.

    The stepping reflex, or walking reflex as it's sometimes called, is indeed present at birth. It is not learned. The only thing trained is balance (which is not a reflex) and the strength of the muscles necessary to support the body weight (yet again, not a reflex). (edit for clarification) The reflex eventually disappears and then reappears later as a voluntary action.

    Tell you what, let's just drop the topic entirely, or at least do some basic research on the topic beforehand...
    Last edited by Jigain; 2012-07-10 at 01:34 PM.

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