A sense of progression

[DrakeWurrum]

Much prefered over fighting some overseer of tunnelrats that looks exactly the same as the regular mobs except it had its model scaled up 20%.

But would you really enjoy the game is every single fight was something on the level of Shadow Behemoth?

The best things in life are sparse, not constant.

[gainesvilleg]

He already did, he feels its that
Start: Weak little peon fighting boars
Middle: getting stronger figthting trolls
End: Big bad ass fighting dragon

not
Start: Weak little peon fighting boars
Middle: Big Baddass fighting dragon
Middle: Weak little peon fighting boars
Middle Getting stronger fighting trols
Middle: Big bad ass fighting dragons
Middle: Weak little peon fighting boars
etc etc
End game Big bad ass fighting dragon
End game: Weak little peon fighting boars
End game: Big bad ass fighting dragon
etc etc

Or thats how i viewed it. Its the yoyo effect that you dont really get in any other mmo, due to up down scaling, not saying its bad though.

Yeah, that is a ridiculous approach. I NEVER liked scaling like that. So I just defeated the giant dragon but a small boar took me down an hour later LOL. One of my big joys in RPG's is when I meet later in the game some monster that gave me a crapload of trouble earlier in my gaming life, but now I can go and slaughter a whole field of them as I run through the area barely even slowing down. In your FACE boar.

One stupid thing WoW did though (as an example) was have vastly different levels of boars or bears or wolves for instance. You can have a wolf that you can take down at level 10, but then at level 70 there will be a different color wolf who is stronger than the dragon you beat at level 60. So to do it right you need to not repeat monster types and have a logical progression of monsters (why would a blue wolf be 1000X stronger then a grey wolf?), which is hard to do I guess when you have 10 years of expansions...

[deathtakes]

I haven't played GW2, but I am convinced it will be epic. There is one thing however that kinda bothers me...

What I liked so much about WoW was that the game had a strong sense of progression. You start with almost nothing. Crappy gray items and a simple spell. You are a nobody. You get the simplest tasks like killing boars and collecting apples. You obtain better gear and learn stronger spells as you become higher lvl. And you become a powerful hero.

I remember when Corpsemaker was the best item i had ever seen, 30 dps. And then seeing lvl 70s with 100+ dps weps... It felt epic just wondering what the best shield in the game is, or the best axe, or the best helm.

Doing your first dungeon at lvl 12, Ragefire chasm. It was epic tbh... But it was nothing compared to the high lvl raids, like the Black Temple, where the hardest boss in the game, Illidan was, dropping the greatest weapons and armor in the game, including his warglaives... Very few people got to kill him, and it was incredibly rare to obtain both warglaives, but it was worth it.

You didn't really get to fight any epic bosses until later in the game. I don't like MMOs where you fight incredible foes very early in the game... Because you won't have anything to look forward to then. It takes away your motivation to lvl up and face those big bad monsters later in the game, when you are strong enough. It's nothing special if you do it at low lvls. I WANT to feel weak when I am low lvl, or it ruins the sense of progression, and you won't feel strong at lvl cap.

It's good that GW2 does things different, but most MMOs actually fail at giving you a sense of progression and I fear that GW2 will lack this too... It will have some progression, but I doubt it will give you that feeling... it's kinda hard to describe, but anyway.

Edit, I'll just add this: I'm pretty sure GW2 will be a game you play every now and then for fun, not like WoW where you play 5 hours a day for years to achieve things and upgrade your character. Think about how long it would normally take to get full T6 in TBC, you have to level up to 70, get gear in normal mode 5mans, then heroic modes, then karazhan, farm each raid tier for months all the way to BT/sunwell. You can spend the entire expansion pack working on 1 character. And you got honor farming for your PvP set, then improve your arena rating for the best PvP gear. Sure it's a lot of grind, but thats what makes you proud of your character in the end. That you have achieved something others haven't. And it works like an escape from your daily life, you can just forget about all your RL troubles and work on your character in the game instead, and play all day :P

this video gives you a good idea of what I mean by progression: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwSzFOsvrr4 <- srsly watch it

From vanilla through to BC sure, but after that? Nope. Sure you still start out looking like a peasant but the abilities are so over tuned you never get that 'weak' feeling. The bosses don't so much progress as they get interesting. Every boss you encounter up to 80 are steamrolled in 5 man groups even in blues, and that's not even including heirlooms! I don't get that feeling at all playing wow post BC.

What I like is a challenge, and from all the videos I've seen and comments I've read GW2 seems to have that in spades. I'm downloading the beta client now and I couldn't be more excited.

[strangebreed]

it sounds a little bit more realistic story wise to have big enemies mixed through out when i think about it. like you kill pesky little things all the time during your life a hero but then something happens and now you've got to kill some big mofo. so instead of being a complete wuss until "max level" you actually kill mighty foes becoming stronger and stronger...how do you get strong killing trolls all the time. shrug seems better story wise to have big bosses mixed through out, but still having the best boss for last.

[DrakeWurrum]

Yeah, that is a ridiculous approach. I NEVER liked scaling like that. So I just defeated the giant dragon but a small boar took me down an hour later LOL. One of my big joys in RPG's is when I meet later in the game some monster that gave me a crapload of trouble earlier in my gaming life, but now I can go and slaughter a whole field of them as I run through the area barely even slowing down. In your FACE boar.

One stupid thing WoW did though (as an example) was have vastly different levels of boars or bears or wolves for instance. You can have a wolf that you can take down at level 10, but then at level 70 there will be a different color wolf who is stronger than the dragon you beat at level 60. So to do it right you need to not repeat monster types and have a logical progression of monsters (why would a blue wolf be 1000X stronger then a grey wolf?), which is hard to do I guess when you have 10 years of expansions...

I find it representative of actual skill, as opposed to "lolz i've got so much power!"

No matter how skilled you are with a sword, if you slack off, that boar you're hunting can still kill you. Realism in my games? WTF?!

[gainesvilleg]

I find it representative of actual skill, as opposed to "lolz i've got so much power!"

No matter how skilled you are with a sword, if you slack off, that boar you're hunting can still kill you. Realism in my games? WTF?!

That line of thinking doesn't really hold water though the way GW2 does it. They scale you down to a feeb again which is pretty obvious (as opposed to having to be "careless" to die). The way scaling works usually is just very NON-realistic (e.g., all of the roadside bandits in Oblivion decked out in full glass armor by the end of the game).

If GW2 wanted realism they should allow open world PVP and remove fast travel for a start. Many other ways they can improve "realism" without the very artificial auto-scaling wherever you go.

[ZerOKami]

I find it representative of actual skill, as opposed to "lolz i've got so much power!"

No matter how skilled you are with a sword, if you slack off, that boar you're hunting can still kill you. Realism in my games? WTF?!

I thought of exactly the same thing. Heck, even a single illness could cause the demise of the "big badass dragonslayer" in real life, yet it only takes 1% of your hp in-game?

A hero is known by his deeds, not by his equipment.

[gainesvilleg]

I thought of exactly the same thing. Heck, even a single illness could cause the demise of the "big badass dragonslayer" in real life, yet it only takes 1% of your hp in-game?

A hero is known by his deeds, not by his equipment.

Don't get me wrong I'd be all for an uber-realistic game. I played Fallout New Vegas in hardcore mode for example (not as if that was "realistic" but it was a step in that direction). I would really be interested in an MMO that focused on uber realism.

But auto-scaling is most certainly not uber-realism. Maybe in real life that boar would always be able to kill you, but then in that case in real life that dragon would simply one-shot you every time no matter what "level" you were. I mean, all it needs to do is crash land on you once and you are as flat as a pancake. Imagine fighting the empire state building LOL.

[Karizee]

A hero is known by his deeds, not by his equipment.

I like that.

[rhandric]

That line of thinking doesn't really hold water though the way GW2 does it. They scale you down to a feeb again which is pretty obvious (as opposed to having to be "careless" to die). The way scaling works usually is just very NON-realistic (e.g., all of the roadside bandits in Oblivion decked out in full glass armor by the end of the game).

If GW2 wanted realism they should allow open world PVP and remove fast travel for a start. Many other ways they can improve "realism" without the very artificial auto-scaling wherever you go.

We're talking combat realism here

[gainesvilleg]

I like that.

But in fantasy fiction heros almost always have legendary equipment that helps them. Lets take LOTR as an example. Bilbo/Frodo had the ring, the sword "Sting," and the mithril armor (mithril armor single handedly saved Frodo from death from the Cave troll spear). Frodo also had the light of Galadriel which helped against the giant spider. Aragorn had his reforged Aduril sword. Gandalf had his magic staff as well as one of the rings of power (many don't know that: he had the elven ring of fire). Galadriel had one of the elven rings of power as well.

Point is, in high fantasy the equipment is indeed very important and is often the difference in victory versus defeat.

I just figured I'd flex my LOTR knowledge a bit LOL. Don't want that college credit to go to waste (Fantasy and Science Fiction 101)

---------- Post added 2012-07-13 at 05:57 PM ----------

We're talking combat realism here

So you think autoscaling is realistic? I can see why you might like it but I don't understand how it can be called realistic. I personally do not like it, but that is my opinion. But not sure how you can argue that turning into a feeb because you crossed the border into a different zone is realistic.

[rhandric]

You're thinking of scaling in the wrong way. It's not so much making you weaker so much as allowing you to progress (because everyone likes progression) in more difficult areas while preventing content from becoming negligible. You're still more powerful at level 30 going into Plains of Ascalon compared to a level 4 in the same area, even when scaled down, due to utility and elite skills, as well as traits. It just makes sure that content is still, if not difficult, non-trivial.

[gainesvilleg]

You're thinking of scaling in the wrong way. It's not so much making you weaker so much as allowing you to progress (because everyone likes progression) in more difficult areas while preventing content from becoming negligible. You're still more powerful at level 30 going into Plains of Ascalon compared to a level 4 in the same area, even when scaled down, due to utility and elite skills, as well as traits. It just makes sure that content is still, if not difficult, non-trivial.

No I get it. And like I said I can see the merits of it, it allows you to play more content at max level. But there are tradeoffs to that approach, hence the title of this thread. You lose part of the sense of progression if the same monsters who bothered you at level 1 can still bother you at max level. Bethesda did a similar thing in Oblivion using a different approach (scaling monsters up instead of you down) but it was very controversial. Many many didn't like it and they modified that approach signficantly for Skyrim.

But my last couple posts weren't debating the merits of autoscaling, simply that it isn't "realistic." It is simply a game mechanic not realism. Agreed it is a silly debate but, hey I like to debate

[DrakeWurrum]

Yeah, lets not fall back on "lol, realism" when talking about mechanics.

It never pissed you off that Illidan proved to be a total pushover just because of you having 25 levels on him?

It's not so much an "lol, realism" thing, as it is that levels and raw power levels make no sense to me. Dragonball Z and Dragonball GT took "power levels" way too far.

---------- Post added 2012-07-13 at 05:28 PM ----------

Don't get me wrong I'd be all for an uber-realistic game. I played Fallout New Vegas in hardcore mode for example (not as if that was "realistic" but it was a step in that direction). I would really be interested in an MMO that focused on uber realism.

But auto-scaling is most certainly not uber-realism. Maybe in real life that boar would always be able to kill you, but then in that case in real life that dragon would simply one-shot you every time no matter what "level" you were. I mean, all it needs to do is crash land on you once and you are as flat as a pancake. Imagine fighting the empire state building LOL.

That's not the point. If you are really amazing at wielding a sword, and dodging and stuff, then it's likely you're going to kill that boar without much effort, which is what will happen in GW2. You still have a very decent advantage over lower-level creatures when you're downscaled, to the point that they're not a real challenge. Not like "lol first time in H Deathwing, and using no T13 gear" challenge, but more like "okay, let's not fuck this up" challenge.

But if you just stand there and assume "Okay, I'm really awesome now, I don't need to dodge those boar tusks!" then you're going to die. Gotta keep on your toes and not let your awesomeness get to your head.

[gainesvilleg]

But in fantasy fiction heros almost always have legendary equipment that helps them. Lets take LOTR as an example. Bilbo/Frodo had the ring, the sword "Sting," and the mithril armor (mithril armor single handedly saved Frodo from death from the Cave troll spear). Frodo also had the light of Galadriel which helped against the giant spider. Aragorn had his reforged Aduril sword. Gandalf had his magic staff as well as one of the rings of power (many don't know that: he had the elven ring of fire). Galadriel had one of the elven rings of power as well.

Point is, in high fantasy the equipment is indeed very important and is often the difference in victory versus defeat.

I just figured I'd flex my LOTR knowledge a bit LOL. Don't want that college credit to go to waste (Fantasy and Science Fiction 101)

Oh and although nobody probably cares I can't resist I find this interesting. Did you also know that part of the reason Saruman was so obsessed with Sauron and in obtaining or making a ring of power (in the book he made a low-rent magic ring although that wasn't part of the movie) because he was jealous that although he was the "top" wizard the elves (forgot who, Cirdan I think?) chose to give the elven ring of fire to Gandalf instead of Saruman. This sort of drove Saruman to madness as he focused on the knowledge needed to create his own ring. Kind of interesting I think and explains his downfall a little better than just "he turned evil"

[DrakeWurrum]

Frodo could put on that ring of invisibility if he wanted, but if orcs saw him before he put it on, and he just stood in place expecting them to ignore him, he'd probably have died very early on.

You rely too much on your equipment and tools, you will fail - this is true in all walks of life.

[toolegit]

How long does the "mods" let this sort of trolling keep going on?

Please read posts before you do that, because it's obvious you haven't.

Just flat out trolling.

If you think someone is trolling and have nothing productive to add to the thread, just report them an move on. Simply calling others trolls adds nothing to the thread. If you have an issue with a moderator/moderation, feel free to send Boubouille/Sunshine a PM about it. Infracted. -Edge

[ZerOKami]

And by that line of thinking downscaling makes the game even MORE realistic. Levels are the symbolism for your character's growth as he/she goes through the journey.

After all even if a simple boar starts pounding on you, you can't just ignore it. You can't kill everything with just breathing on it.

[AnnoDomini]

It'd be nice if a game allowed for all the content to be relevant and challenging at all time, but that opens up other cans of worms.

Isn't that wait Arena Net is hooting for with this game? They may not nail it 100%, I mean I fully expect as I get closer to max level that as I go back to lower level zones they will be easier. Having higher stats will contribute to making it easier, my skill at the game should make it easier, and having more utility skills opened up should make it easier. I don't expect (with their current downscaling feature) to one shot a foe or take only 5 damage when I get hit though.