Was extremely hard raiding really "fun"?

[Nyaldee]

Not fun at all (and i was in a guild that've done server first MC clear and so on). Raiding took about 1/2 time i've been spending on my job, it was extremly unrewarding items wise (very few drops/40 man), most classes were pigeonholded into cetrain specs and repairs/consumables forced you to spend even more time ingame. I certanly forgot many more grudges and if i had a chance to go back i would spend time i lost on Classic WoW raiding on something else. And tbh would generally start playing from tBC (if i would at all).

[Konker]

I see a lot of people talk about "back in vanilla WoW" or back in this or that and they talk about how the game is so easy now and back in vanilla everything was fun and hard but i'm not exactly sure how this is fun?

First off, completing a raid meant something. Even if it was "impossible", it was fun to have something to strive for. Comparatively, killed and all it took was 45 minutes of attacking whatever the rest of the raid was attacking. I mean, who has not killed DW already. Is the "Stood In The Fire" achievement even something that happens by accident anymore?

Secondly, After having killed Deathwing 4 months ago, have had nothing to do for a long time now. And nothing to do for 2 more months. I would say notihng to do is much, much worse than having something very difficult to do.

Lastly, social aspects. Just watch my wife raid last night - with the profanity filter on the only raid chat was "Why the $*$#*!@#* did you *&##&*@ on *)(@#?!?!". Everything is so streamlined everyone is just farming. As a group, no one is in it for the dungeon, the fights, the experience or even the other raiders anymore. They are in it for themselves and it shows.

[Drithien]

I see a lot of people talk about "back in vanilla WoW" or back in this or that and they talk about how the game is so easy now and back in vanilla everything was fun and hard but i'm not exactly sure how this is fun?

Can anyone explain to me what is so "fun" about spending weeks and/or months to down content after wiping constantly over and over again with potential guild drama and repairs doing all this raiding for no gear just wiping wiping wiping...What is so fun about it?

I mean I know people want some challenging raids but do people seriously want raiding to be like vanilla? I mean from what i remember it was fucking horrible and frustrating...

First of all, there never has been anything in the game's raid content that could be described as "extremely hard raiding", ever. And this is not a particularly difficult thought to make. Difficulty in raiding comes from class mechanics, gear mechanics, buff mechanics, boss mechanics, group coordination, and time spent on an encounter; all of them directly or indirectly. In the game's history, most of these elements existed, and at times interacted with each other, but never were at their deepest in depth and highest in challenge to play with at the same time, while mixing with each other simultaneously: - Some class mechanics have, at times, had quite some depth to them and challenge in playing good with them; but not all, and those that did, almost never at the same time. And most importantly, no class had ever had immense depth, or was immensely difficult to play good with (yeah, not even feral druids).
- The gear mechanics were even worse. At best, gear mechanics had some medium depth, and most of the challenge in acquiring gear has, so far, been getting lucky.
- Buff mechanics have mostly been stupid, with only a few notable exceptions thus far. 5 minutes-long paladin buffs are a far cry from in-depth, intelligent buff mechanics.
- Boss mechanics have also rarely been that challening overall as well. The usual method is to have a boss that hits hard and have lots of health. Well one Patchwreck fight every tier is nice, but frankly it lost its novelty the first time. Truly challenging fights, like Mimiron in Firefighter mode are very few.
- What is more, the element of time spent was never that big altogether. If you want to experience an extreme time-based challenge play the First Final Fantasy mmorpg, with its hours-long boss fights.
- While coordination is something that was never that crucial. Just check out coordination as it exists in Arenas. That is true coordination. Then compare it to raid coordination...
So, "extremely hard raiding" never existed. So, please, don't overreact. You are destroying the conversation you yourself started in this way.

On to your actual point, that people want raiding to be like Vanilla. Why is that your only answer to challenging raiding? What is that huge barrier that prohibits any kind of evolution of raiding besides the two ways of modern raiding, and Vanilla raiding? Because I don't see it. Please elaborate on this, because I am perplexed.

World of WarCraft it its initial state was an unfinished, buggy, and at times even broken game. Logically, it was a shameful product for Blizzard to be associated with. The reasons were numerous; mostly that they wanted the game to be out in time for WarCraft's 10th anniversary; and that the project was huge, too big for them to ship the thing at an amazingly good state, like their past products, without risking a lot, even their existence, financially.

But why did that abomination of a game, with the boring questing, stupid stories, big amounts of grinding, and all the other "bad habits" become such a success? Why, even more, with only that elusive 5% of players raiding, is the raiding of that time regarded with such fondness? Again, lots of reasons, but the number one, in my opinion? Potential. The core of the game was amazing. So, even amongst the wtf-is-that-content of the game, it shined. Coupled with the fact that this was a new experience for a lot of people, the future was there for the game to become better. Unfortunately, it became, for the most part, more castrated.

For example, questing had its boring monents, but grinding is a necessary evil in mmorpgs with subscriptions, to keep players occupied. And the way the grinding was split among levels was quite good. Quests could get better, while keep being grindy at times, so as to keep players occupied, but with better content. It was never a matter of one or the other. Blizzard made it so. If the developing team worked on creating better quests, while keeping the areas big, the travelling in foot and ground mounts throughout the world even at times, no map-tracker for quests, and had some grinding points here and there, the game wouldn't have become so small, with characters flocking to the level-cap to just sit there grinding points instead, and their players complaining that they have nothing to do. If they concentrated on variety in levelling content as well, racial campaigns, class questing, in-depth, active profession levelling, meaningful choices, etc, levelling would be a journey most players would wish never ended. It was stated by Blizzard themselves, that most players don't even like raiding, they do it because it's pretty much the only thing to do at the level cap. Why Blizzard didn't pay more attention to the levelling content, and instead created this excuse of levelling that is current 1-60 content is beyond me. Most of your playerbase wants progressively varied content, and you try to fit everyone in raiding, when you yourself state most players don't like raiding. 80 levels, 80 levels of content are consumed in a matter of days! Instead of the game becoming bigger, it becomes smaller.

What does that have to do with raiding? To me, it's essentially the same flawed evolution choice. Instead of keeping what is good about raiding and getting rid of the negative elements, Blizzard decided to change raiding altogether, mostly keeping the boring elements actually. I don't miss the "glory days of Molten Core":
- What I do miss is the feeling of setting foot inside the dungeon after the thrill that was the attunement to it. I had a reason to be there, a very specific one. The same was for Black Temple. Nowadays it's just a shiny door, and since it's there we go through it, pretty much. Instead of creating more interesting and less punisihg attunements, they removed them altogether, severing the story from the gameplay pretty much. It was never a matter of "yes to attunements" or "no to attunements". But they made a matter out of it.
- What I also miss is the special feeling each class and specialisation of class had. The unique mechanics and buffs they brought. Once more Blizzard decided to destroy that as well. Straight to 10-man raiding, where it's just impossible to have a class represantation worth anything. Why didn't they stop at 16-man raiding, where there is much more room for a good group setup? And with the new limits, they themselves, created, for no reason at all, they are now forced to homogenise classes. This should be an example in a dictionary explaining what the phrase "Shot himself in the foot" means.
- What I also miss is class depth. Playing mainly a dot-based damage dealing role, I miss the added depth of having to watch out for clipping dots, and the rush of a buff to haste rating (Bloodlust) that made everything go so much faster. At the same time clipping dots wasn't a huge loss in damage output, and would not prohibit a group of players from completing a raid dungeon in normal mode. It was not a wall, just some added depth for those that could and wanted to explore deeper. Why did that have to go away? I was under the impression that as a game progresses things get added depth, not lose depth.
- I also miss "lively" boss encounters. Like Mimiron. Where there was a lot of movement; need for quick on-the-spot thinking; all the while doing maximum damage possible. Why can't at least Heroic Mode have such encounters? Why does it have to be the same basic fights almost always?
And on and on and on I could go, but I think that you get the idea. They never had to make raiding, or the game, like this. So basic, boring, and tasteless. They could really make a game for everyone. With a loooooot of depth. And a loooot of various activities. So that the explorer could have things to do. The quest-maniac could have things to do. The collector could have things to do. The average raider could have things to do. The higher-than-average raider could have things to do. etc But instead they chose to try and fit everything in one, dilluting the taste of what made the ecperiences in the game so fun in the first place, and leaving almost none satisfied.

[Toxigen]

[QUOTE=Drithiend;17733833]First of all, there never has been anything in the game's raid content that could be described as "extremely hard raiding", ever. QUOTE]

40 man KT, pre-nerf M'uru, heroic LK pre-buff, and pre-nerf heroic Rag say hello.

But, honestly...that's 4 bosses, across 3 expansions...that can be considered "extremely hard." I want MORE ball-busters.

[GoldenTower]

[QUOTE=PhearMark;17509912]For most people it was the immense sense of accomplishment when you finally downed a boss after spending that much time on it. Also because of the way the content was designed, most of the raid group would have been very similar minded in terms of being willing to stick with the tough times and work on their playstyle, their character, their gear, and more so that the whole group could progress further. You still had people leaving obviously and had holes in certain places, but in terms of the actual raiding itself, it was mostly the group mindset that people enjoyed more than any particular fight or challenge.[/QUOTE

this, only this

[Lolercaust]

<snip>

Thank you for elucidating all of the reasons why Blizzard has steered WoW in the wrong direction, that I could not put into words myself.

[Keoren]

This thread has not received a reply in few days but it seems like a curious topic of discussion so I'd like to share my feelings as well.

Can anyone explain to me what is so "fun" about spending weeks and/or months to down content after wiping constantly over and over again with potential guild drama and repairs doing all this raiding for no gear just wiping wiping wiping...What is so fun about it?

I will ignore the arguments for and against the nature of Vanilla raiding and will instead reply to this part of the post.

Challenging encounters are the only thing I play this game for. There is only one feeling in this game better than first encountering a boss and having to ask yourself "How can we realistically kill this thing?", and that is working the long hours and actually seeing the mountain fall. Sometimes it is hard and you and you guild will have to do your absolute best. That feeling is a mix of accomplishment, relief and pride, and to me personally it is addictive beyond belief.

I mean I know killing a boss is rewarding but you spent weeks sometimes even months wiping on it just to have that 5minutes of feeling good? Only to go to the next boss for the same grind?

Yes

[Vancleave]

Besides the raiding alot of people does consider vanilla more then today since u experienced and learned the game back then way more then today, join a random heroic today and theres a 70% chance that theres people having absolutley no idea what they're doing because these days it takes 1 week to go from 1-80 and 80-85 in another week, back at vanilla it litterly took like months to get to 40 then you had to farm money for ur 60% mount for weeks, then 40-60 took another month and farming money for your 100% was nearly impossible, it took so much time, it was more challenging and when u got what u've worked for u felt very proud, now its like '' Free lvl 80z with 280% speedz and upgrade to Cata'' I mean theyre giving away something that took people time to farm. Abit offtopic with the Raiding but i really consider this a big factor why people liked vanilla more.

[Asatru]

The only thing that makes raiding difficult is people not knowing the encounter correctly. If everyone knew what to do at a given time, it'll go smoothly. If you have people who don't know what to do, you'll wipe. Every PVE Raid encounter is a scripted encounter, nothing will ever change.

[Dundebuns]

Removed the challenge of raiding? how can people say this. Have you even done the content or did you do LFR and think you've done it all?

You mean heroic modes that are pretty much the same as LFR except with bigger numbers? People will leave in droves every patch when they realise they can do LFR once or twice, see the content, the encounters and the mechanics, and can then unsub until the next offering of content.