1. #1
    Bloodsail Admiral chemicader's Avatar
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    Endgame suggestions

    So far, endgame consists of Achievement hunting, Raiding, Instancing, Bgs, RBGs, Arena, Reputation "grinds", Mount/Pet collecting, Events and in MoP Battle Pets, Scenarios and Challenge mode dungeons. Now, lets think of some new types and variations of endgame content. Also, please add if you want to include something which used to belong into end game, but does not anymore.

    So, I will start this off with some of my own/previously heard ideas:

    Long instanced complexes similar to Vanilla dungeons: I bet majority of you have been into BRD, and most of them will agree that the place is awesome.
    Highly concentrated lore, lots of hidden bosses, quests (Some of them are gone nowadays, or simplified), loot extraordinaire( cosmetic and useable) and other stuff. Blackrock Depths is by far the biggest 5-man dungeon and is just filled with stuff to explore and do. It is actually bigger than some raid instances, althought it originally was meant to be a 10-man instance, but due to the level requirement was set to 5-man.
    This is something, I personally hope to see in the future, possibly without a LFD option, since hey, its a long run and you will be most likely stuck with the same guys for a long period of time.

    Rewarded World PvP:
    This may actually be on its way in MoP, but it is something that in my honest opinion should be separated for example battlegrounds. And it needs some tweaking into its reward system, something to be not exploited on (Halaa for example CAN be exploited) and it should have more variety to its rewards.
    It should not be encouraged so much with united daily areas, or PvP objectives, but in my opinion ( I clearly want to point out that these are actually opinions, not facts) it should be encouraged through the reward system. Though, I do not have any great ideas for this.
    Addition: I found a thread talking about exactly this: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post17520763 Credits for Blueline.
    In short: It is a toggleable bounty hunting system, where you accept certain rules, pick of certain rewards for killing certain players whose bounty is determined by several factors. You are given hints via NPCs about the location of these people, and at the same time you build up your own bounty. You kill a player and loot off his head to be returned for a prize. What do you think of this?

    Mounted Warfare and Customized mounts:
    Dont read just the title, please. What I mean with these, that we would get a designated mount "warfare" or jousting area, and the rewards would be for example customiseable armor, flags, effects and etc. Just minor stuff and keep them always within one category so different mounts actually still stay different.

    1-player training grounds/ Class training grounds / Class quests:
    Designated instanced areas, where you complete quests and the purpose for this is to get some really beginner rewards (For example, a crappy, easily acquirable weapon once you reach max level, etc.) The zones could be different for different classes and specs, and focus on teaching some key aspects of your class, giving you guidance throughout the place. You know, stuff what new people quite often fall for: Using a key ability wrong, not understanding how different mechanics, abilities work in conjunction with. A thing similar to this was supposed to come in MoP, does anyone have any info about it being scrapped or?

    Long max level questlines deeply involving the lore:
    Some epic questlines which introduce us to the raid bosses and raid instances and our own heroes. Could easily work with possible daily areas. I am talking about similar stuff like what we see before Molten Front. They could have some attractive rewards to encourage people to do them who dont enjoy the lore( Gold, reputation, honor, justice/valor points) Also, they should be a challenge, not like the quests you do while leveling.

    Warcamps: This idea was ripped off from Zylathas`s thread and credits for this idea go to him.
    I will just quote his idea here and add my own thoughts :
    The so-called Warcamps this are moveable daily quest places that take place in various zones. Each faction will have their own war camp in a zone each week attacking the opposites factions cities there, involving new dailies & phased content.

    How would it work?

    There will be at start 12 zones randomely chosen, 6 for the alliance, 6 for the horde. When a warcamp arrives in a zone it stays for a week and you can do quests for it, the opposite faction will get new quests in the city that is being attacked. Each 3 zones will share the same faction, thus there will be 4 new factions in total awarding warcamp transmogable gear & warcamp enchants, this are new enchants you can use on your gear which will work like weapon enchants, but for every gear slot and avaiable for both pve & pvp, with the restriction that you can have a maximum of three enchants slotted.

    Keep in mind that there would be 2 of 12 warcamps avaiable each week, one alliance & one horde warcamp. The others would still be visible in the world but have no npc's in it.
    Honestly, I disagree with the reward system, what I would like rather is that you get tokens for completing dailies, and world PvP kills in this designated zone, with all the items buyable with this currency. Okay, so adding updates from Zylathas`s thread:
    The most popular zones for the locations of the camps seem to be: Swamp of Sorrows, Gilneas/Silverpine, Ashenvale, Stonetalon, Stranglethorn, Hillsbrad and Stonetalon. There has been discussion about gaining a buff in power/reward gain by completing objectives (A temporary one which will be removed when you leave the zone) Pve and PvP objectives, siege vehicle dailies and temporary changes in scenery. This combined with the bounty hunting system sounds very interesting.

    Please read this before posting and have fun discussing!
    Last edited by chemicader; 2012-07-11 at 10:47 PM.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...time-with-lore 4th specs from a pure lore standpoint.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post17518830 Read / Add your ideas for new endgame formats/variables.

  2. #2
    The whole concept of endgame needs to disappear. WoW is way too crappy both pvp and pve wise until you spend a ridiculous amount of time playing it.

    Just check out guild wars 2 to see how it's done right. The gameplay is top-quality all throughout the game.

  3. #3
    Bloodsail Admiral chemicader's Avatar
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    So what you are saying the basics of the game should be adjusted first? A valid point, but little off-topic and I for one approve the concept of separating endgame and leveling. And lets not make this a WoW vs. GW2 thread...
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...time-with-lore 4th specs from a pure lore standpoint.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post17518830 Read / Add your ideas for new endgame formats/variables.

  4. #4
    IDK where you got the idea most people like blackrock depths, I remember SOOOO many people complaining about that place, they HATED it. even now with the shrotened parts many peopel complain about how long it is in LFD. Most peopel really don't like the ginormous dungeons
    What bosses will be in the Deathwing Raid?
    Quote Originally Posted by MauroDiogo View Post
    Leg 1, Leg 2, Hind Legs is a duo boss fight, Wings, Tail, Head and last Heroic mode only boss is his Chin. Totally optional and only for those hardcore enough. It's jaw dropping!
    Quote Originally Posted by Histidine View Post
    WoW is great.
    Not sure what game people are playing; I love the way things are.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by chemicader View Post
    So what you are saying the basics of the game should be adjusted first? A valid point, but little off-topic and I for one approve the concept of separating endgame and leveling. And lets not make this a WoW vs. GW2 thread...
    Yeah but why are you suggesting these as "endgame"? Why do I have to spend a ridiculous amount of time before being able to experience these?

  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral chemicader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joodoc View Post
    IDK where you got the idea most people like blackrock depths, I remember SOOOO many people complaining about that place, they HATED it. even now with the shrotened parts many peopel complain about how long it is in LFD. Most peopel really don't like the ginormous dungeons
    When I have mentioned it to people, usually the reaction is along the lines "Oh I loved that dungeon" "It was the best dungeon ever", might be just looking back with rose-tinted glasses, but anyways it is an idea, may be a bad one, but I personally love the idea.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-11 at 08:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by yolmez86 View Post
    Yeah but why are you suggesting these as "endgame"? Why do I have to spend a ridiculous amount of time before being able to experience these?
    True, they dont have to be just endgame, but if any of these ideas would prove succesful there would be no doubt that there wouldnt be an "endgame" version for it. The concept of endgame is vague at its best and dont get caught up in that word, its these suggestions we are here to discuss about.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...time-with-lore 4th specs from a pure lore standpoint.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post17518830 Read / Add your ideas for new endgame formats/variables.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Joodoc View Post
    IDK where you got the idea most people like blackrock depths, I remember SOOOO many people complaining about that place, they HATED it. even now with the shrotened parts many peopel complain about how long it is in LFD. Most peopel really don't like the ginormous dungeons
    Yeah, there were people who hated BRD and other classic dungeons. They were left dueling in Goldshire in their greens. Now they dictate the pace of this game, and dungeon design is made around them. Even more-so, MoP dungeon, from what I peeked at, don't look as cool dungeons either.

    Game needs some convoluted dungeon (at least 1) with lots of bosses, quests, and other interesting (cosmetic and non-cosmetic) stuff. It can be made as an exclusion to random LFD rolls, sure.

    Agree on long quest chains, but not of Molten Front type. Farming dailies for 100500 marks to unlock another few dailies to farm 100500 more marks - is, imo, too primitive.

    Training grounds. Developers have something similar planned for MoP. I would personally like 1-2 players instanced dungeons added in. Btw, did someone who is active on Beta check on those training grounds? Or those grounds aren't activated yet?

    P. S.: Also mutilation of Sunken Temple can't be forgiven.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by yolmez86 View Post
    The whole concept of endgame needs to disappear. WoW is way too crappy both pvp and pve wise until you spend a ridiculous amount of time playing it.

    Just check out guild wars 2 to see how it's done right. The gameplay is top-quality all throughout the game.
    Most of the so-called wow killers fail because there is no "endgame", nothing new to do once you've hit max level. Same problem plagues D3, and same problem seems very real for GW2 as well with zero end game content to do.

    Without "endgame" players who smash the content to level cap fast will have no reason to continue subscription. AoC, Aion and SWToR are most obvious examples of that. GW2 avoids some of the problem by not having subscription fee, but it doesn't solve the problem of how to retain players who have done it all.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral chemicader's Avatar
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    As far as I know the Training Grounds supposed to come MoP have been scrapped long time ago, I only heard them mentioned a few times. I could be wrong though, but I included it here anyways. And yeah, I didnt like Molten Core neither, but lets say the prequests for it. The ones which you were able to do while leveling where you helped the ancients out, and the one which introduced us to the Druids of the Flame. Just make them a challenge and directly connect them to the raids, and have a rewards as a carrot for people who cant care about lore.

    Also, what are your opinions about Mounted Warfare and Warcamps? The first one was my personal idea which I cannot think anyone has mentioned before, I think there is loads to expand on. Think of ToC as a raw alpha version of it.
    Warcamps got people really pumped up in Zylathas`s thread http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...warcamps/page2 and in my honest opinion this is the stuff which is most likeable to be implemented and it seems like a quite fresh idea, with loads to expand on in the future.
    Also, feel free to post your own ideas and not just to comment mine.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...time-with-lore 4th specs from a pure lore standpoint.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post17518830 Read / Add your ideas for new endgame formats/variables.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Most of the so-called wow killers fail because there is no "endgame", nothing new to do once you've hit max level. Same problem plagues D3, and same problem seems very real for GW2 as well with zero end game content to do.

    Without "endgame" players who smash the content to level cap fast will have no reason to continue subscription. AoC, Aion and SWToR are most obvious examples of that. GW2 avoids some of the problem by not having subscription fee, but it doesn't solve the problem of how to retain players who have done it all.
    How about... wait for it... wait for it...

    ...

    Because the gameplay is enjoyable?

    God forbid anyone play a game because it's enjoyable. They must collect as many virtual merit badges as possible for their virtual gaming resume. Pay your sub so you can do the same dungeons again and again and get MORE POINTS!

    No, thanks... keep the points. I'll play it again if it's enjoyable though. If it's a wonderful, fantastical escape from the stress of real life as well as a skillful and strategical challenge. Like GW2.
    Last edited by yolmez86; 2012-07-11 at 10:17 PM.

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral chemicader's Avatar
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    Please, keep this discussion about the suggestions, not about endgame, other games compared to wow or about subbing or not subbing to the game.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...time-with-lore 4th specs from a pure lore standpoint.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post17518830 Read / Add your ideas for new endgame formats/variables.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by chemicader View Post
    As far as I know the Training Grounds supposed to come MoP have been scrapped long time ago, I only heard them mentioned a few times. I could be wrong though, but I included it here anyways.
    Ugh, I honestly hope you are wrong.

    Edit: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4903440365 - I guess you are right

    Well, what about Scenarios (profession Scenarios, 2-3 people Scenarios), which developers planned to implement? Were they... scrapped too?
    Last edited by Ferocity; 2012-07-11 at 10:45 PM.

  13. #13
    Dreadlord Cinnamohn's Avatar
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    I thought this was for Diablo when I clicked on it. :3

  14. #14
    Many people will disagree with me and that's fine but id love to see some single player or two player dungeons.

    After running a million diablo 3 dungeons I think it would be nice to log WoW and be able to have the option of some solo content, Id love to see a BRD type instance that's open for solo play. I love raiding and even 5 man's but their's times when I just wanna do my own thing.

  15. #15
    Dreadlord Cinnamohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joodoc View Post
    IDK where you got the idea most people like blackrock depths, I remember SOOOO many people complaining about that place, they HATED it. even now with the shrotened parts many peopel complain about how long it is in LFD. Most peopel really don't like the ginormous dungeons
    People in LFD also don't like or know how to use a map..

  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral chemicader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    Ugh, I honestly hope you are wrong.

    Edit: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4903440365 - I guess you are right

    Well, what about Scenarios (profession Scenarios, 2-3 people Scenarios), which developers planned to implement? Were they... scrapped too?
    Scenarios are coming, but they essentially are 3-player instanced group quests/events.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...time-with-lore 4th specs from a pure lore standpoint.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post17518830 Read / Add your ideas for new endgame formats/variables.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by chemicader View Post
    Long instanced complexes similar to Vanilla dungeons: I bet majority of you have been into BRD, and most of them will agree that the place is awesome.
    First thing - I disagree actually.. It's badly designed place that is more and more out of place as the game progresses.. Why?
    When was the last time you actually finished it whole with a group you started with? Last time I was there on my lower level rogue it took over 20 players to complete it.. People were loosing their way, after dying they didn't know how to get in (remember the old gv run?), and how to navigate in this massive place, it's way too long so people wee bailing because of the time limit they had..
    You might say that "those people shouldn't be there", or "you like the challenge and getting lost", and "you have time to run aimlessly for hours".. But most people don't.. If I am the only person that stayed in the group for whole dungeon, nobody else from my starting PuG lasted till end.. It took over 20 people joining and leaving before the finish - something is wrong with the dungeon. If people bail from it, it means they don't want to be playing like this.
    WoW changed, and whether we like it or not, some changes are irreversible. We can't take LFD from the game. And with it - most of the dungeons are being run by random groups, not organized ones. And more often than not there are people who don't know the place. Have different time windows and ability to stay focused. Long, maze-like dungeons don't work in such enviroment.

    To be fair for me it never did work in MMO genre. I like those mazes in single player games, where i can explore them on my own, in my own speed or pace.. But when you get other, usually random, people you have to slow down to the slowest member of your group. You have to go by the group pace and more often than not - rely on others ability to navigate in such place..
    Old Wailing Caverns, Maraudon, Sunken Temple, BRD are all my personal nightmares, where unless you were in highly coordinated group, sitting on vent - were just a boring and long grind through endless corridors hoping that the tank knows the way, and doesn't DC/leave the group mid run.. And that someone has the BRD key to speed up things..

    No - shorter, faster dungeons are IMHO the best that happened to WoW.. I seriously prefer to have 3-4 30 mins runs, that one that lasts for 2h and hardly ever finishes with killing of all bosses..

    Quote Originally Posted by chemicader View Post
    Highly concentrated lore, lots of hidden bosses, quests (Some of them are gone nowadays, or simplified), loot extraordinaire( cosmetic and useable) and other stuff.
    Blizz stated that (especially with Cata) they moved most of the lore and quest outside the dungeons into the actual leveling zones. Instead having all lore inside the instance - you have it outside.. It is also something like an old attunment - which tells you why there is certain dungeon, why you go there and want to kill someone inside..
    Was it done perfectly? Prolly not, but they are getting into it.. Dunno how it looks in MoP but in Cata it was pretty tightened up. Hyjal questing led you to Molten Fron which led you to Firelands. Vash'jir led you to those underwater dungeons and Posseidus.. Deepholm was about Stonecore. Uldum was leading you to Halls of Origination, Twilight Highlands had lore about T11 raids...
    The lore is there, the quests are there - just not in the instances..

    What's more after first clear hardly anyone pays attention to the lore inside the dungeon. Remember you run this place many, many times - after like 10 clears you CBA about the same lore, and (mostly )the same bosses on every run (even if some of them are random)..

    Quote Originally Posted by chemicader View Post
    Blackrock Depths is by far the biggest 5-man dungeon and is just filled with stuff to explore and do. It is actually bigger than some raid instances, althought it originally was meant to be a 10-man instance, but due to the level requirement was set to 5-man.
    I'd rather have zones to discover, do quests there, not a dungeon that you will be running over and over again..

    Quote Originally Posted by chemicader View Post
    This is something, I personally hope to see in the future, possibly without a LFD option, since hey, its a long run and you will be most likely stuck with the same guys for a long period of time.
    They won't remove LFD from the game, and don't think they'll introduce dungeons that don;'t use it.. Dungeons are now a step before the raiding - you pretty much need the gear from (current/latest) dungeon to be able to raid - thus people must run them for gear. If they exclude it from LFD - people would either skip it and run LFD-able dungeons.. Or cry on forums that thy need to stand in cities for hours and spam /trade... Most likely people would do both of those things..

    I know that in the past it worked, and people were happy - but those times are gone. you can't give someone a cookie, than take it and expect him to be happy - there would be massive outcry and whinning on forums.. Adding new options for gameplay is good, but taking some away is always a really, really bad idea.


    What's more - main two points why you seem to like BRD are lore and exploration. Those are great, but remember that there are many, many, many people that don't enjoy those two things. They play the game to progress their character, not to read walls of text, or watch cutscenes. They don't want to be running endless dungeons, they want to kill bosses (interesting bosses). Not every realm is RP - and not everyone enjoy it.

    Imho they should separate lore and exploration from raiding/dungeonering - if you want lore and/or exploration you can go into leveling/questing/daily zones and do it. If you don't - just skip it and go straight (or after some minimum of quests)

    Quote Originally Posted by chemicader View Post
    Rewarded World PvP:
    I don't PvP so I won't really talk much about it - but again not all realms are PvP, not everyone enjoys it.. The problem with rewarding for world PvP is that many people just don't even play on realms where you can world PvP.. But again - I don't PvP, so I don't really care if it's enjoyable or not. Some improvements sure could be done..

    Quote Originally Posted by chemicader View Post
    Mounted Warfare and Customized mounts:
    Dont read just the title, please. What I mean with these, that we would get a designated mount "warfare" or jousting area, and the rewards would be for example customiseable armor, flags, effects and etc. Just minor stuff and keep them always within one category so different mounts actually still stay different.
    So pretty much a new battleground with mounted oriented PvP.. could be fun actually.... Dunno about costumization, but I suppose it could be next feature added after Pet Battles.. Since pets got so many love from Blizz, maybe some day mounts will as well? A flag on my Protodrake? Usable "in the world" as vanity chage? Why not actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by chemicader View Post
    1-player training grounds/ Class training grounds / Class quests:
    Training could be cool, but it would require so much work, especially since classes change over time.. Maybe some real basics like "you're a warrior, a tank, so go there and gather all the mobs on you while NPCs shoot them. Don;'t let NPCs die", or "You're a healer, heal all the NPC here while they fight".. I don't really see anything more complicated being implemented.. And I'm not sure if I'd really like to go through it.. Maybe on some really low levels (like lv 15-20 where you start going into dungeons).. Later it's pretty much pointless anyway. You learn faster from players than from some crappy tooltips/tutorials.. And bad players will stay bad, if someone is lv 85 and does less DPS than a felhunter - I don;'t thing any in-game tutorial will help him..

    Quote Originally Posted by chemicader View Post
    Long max level questlines deeply involving the lore:
    Some epic questlines which introduce us to the raid bosses and raid instances and our own heroes.
    It's already done in Cataclysm O_O.. All the 80+ zones are tied to the instances/raids, the lore is out there. And some quest chains actually are quite long (like Indiana Jones quest chain in Uldum leading into Halls of Origination)..

    Quote Originally Posted by chemicader View Post
    Could easily work with possible daily areas. I am talking about similar stuff like what we see before Molten Front.
    Molten Front is a bad idea.. It was too long grind for minimal gains, especially if you were doing it on more than 1 char. Anything that you repeat day after day after day becomes boring and annoying..
    They are actually adressing it in MoP allowing you to choose from way bigger array of dailies as well as removing the daily limit - so you can go and do those that you want.
    After Molten Front some game dev also said that it was requiring too much repetition - so I suppose we won't see so long grinds any time soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by chemicader View Post
    They could have some attractive rewards to encourage people to do them who dont enjoy the lore( Gold, reputation, honor, justice/valor points) Also, they should be a challenge, not like the quests you do while leveling.
    This is what they did with Molten Front, and it was a pain in the ass.. Depends on the magnitude I suppose. Too much repetition leads to boredom and annoyance...

    Not to mention that I hate the idea of daily quest - It's a chore you do every day, not something fun most likely.. Only dailies I really enjoy are DMF ones.. First it's only a week, and second - they are fun and something little bit different..
    I really don't want to be gathering 10 bear asses over and over again to level up to 90 and then continue to hand in another 10 bear asses every day to get some gold...

    If they can do fun and entertaining dailies - maybe it's a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by chemicader View Post
    Warcamps: This idea was ripped off from Zylathas`s thread and credits for this idea go to him.
    Really complicated.. It's a step up from Wintergrasp/Tol Barad? Don't think I graps the whole idea behind it...
    Quote Originally Posted by Archaeon View Post
    In tbc everyone wished they were playing vanilla. In cataclysm everyone will wish they were playing wotlk.
    ^------True story!!

  18. #18
    Bloodsail Admiral chemicader's Avatar
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    Replying to DemoBytom: I agree there are faults in these ideas, but that is exactly what the discussion is about, so points for that. Also for being the first one to comment on the mounted warfare part.
    Yeah, you are correct about the questlines, but I am talking about something really exclusive (And the word before is bolded for a reason, I hated molten front too but the quests before it were nice). But most of these questlines are designed for people leveling and include short grinds with only minor purpose, skip that crap and we have some cool attunement-type questlines (Maybe even ending with a major villain escaping through the dungeon portal perhaps?)
    Also, that was just an idea I threw in the air for sake of discussion. Regarding the no LFD tool for a long instanced complex. And I mainly meant people going in there with guildies and friends to explore a vast lore and loot rich dungeon. Doing some real exploration. There are people who enjoy it, they may be a minority, but there are. Not talking about every dungeon being like this, but maybe once in a couple of expansions.
    And yes, the lore is nowadays outside, but it does not really feel connected to the dungeon, since you probably wont do them right after finishing the quests regarding it.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...time-with-lore 4th specs from a pure lore standpoint.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post17518830 Read / Add your ideas for new endgame formats/variables.

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