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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You clearly didn't know the Glyph market in WotLK then. As they were often high profit with the Scribe controlling the market in glyphs and materials because only they could produce inks.
    Comparing Glyphs to enchants it pointless. I haven't bought a glyph for my 3 raiding toons since they hit level 80 and were doing Naxx. Whereas every. single. time. I get a new piece of gear I enchant them. Just my Warrior tank in Cata i've bought Windwalk 5 or 6 times. And I usually buy the scrolls instead of looking for an enchanter, I had no idea how much markup they put on them, but i'm sure they made out like a bandit.

  2. #542
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenzaliv View Post
    Comparing Glyphs to enchants it pointless.
    So a profession that obtains materials useful only to that profession from items gathered by someone else and one that has had a very profitable monopoly over crafted and materials related to that profession can't be compared to a profession being stated as the same thing? This Blind eye to everything to everything but enchanting is getting old. Heck scribes creating mysterious fortune cards can make a far greater profit then any enchanter can.

    It just seems people have it out for enchanting no matter how illogical their reasons are.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2012-07-18 at 04:05 AM.
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  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam the Wiser View Post
    I keep seeing this come up with enchanters. I mean yeah its selfish but no other profession is forced to share. So I guess a option to opt out of enchanting for the group isn't to much to ask for.
    Unlearn Enchanting, problem solved.

    The reason it is "forced" to share, is because Enchanting is something that every single person needs and materials are ONLY obtained through enchanters, people are even insulted constantly if they do not have enchants, kicked from groups for it and just plain made fun of, so it being "forced" to be "shared" is a good thing, there is no argument to defend the enchanter in this case, it's selfish that they don't want to disenchant for people because it is almost always a result of them getting less money from it, materials themselves? They can farm that, other people cannot unless they are an enchanter.

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Pretty selfish attitude ^_^
    So why can't I skin mobs with your skinner's skill? We can just imagine it as being me "asking for pointers and you showing me how it's done." And then I get the leather.
    Why can't I go and start crafting potions with your alchemist's skill, complete with procs for whatever spec you are?
    Why is Enchanting the only profession that gets to be gang-banged by the rest of the group with no compensation for the Enchanter?
    ಠ_ಠ

  5. #545
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slavemaker View Post
    Unlearn Enchanting, problem solved.

    The reason it is "forced" to share, is because Enchanting is something that every single person needs and materials are ONLY obtained through enchanters, people are even insulted constantly if they do not have enchants, kicked from groups for it and just plain made fun of, so it being "forced" to be "shared" is a good thing, there is no argument to defend the enchanter in this case, it's selfish that they don't want to disenchant for people because it is almost always a result of them getting less money from it, materials themselves? They can farm that, other people cannot unless they are an enchanter.
    People get kicked from groups for not being gemmed and Jewelers are the only ones that can prospect.
    People get kicked from groups for not having glyphs or not having the proper glyphs and Scribes are the only ones that can create inks.

    It shows how much enchanters are discriminated against when some people think that enchanters deserve less materials then non enchanters. What exactly is a non enchanter going to do with their materials? If people want enchanting mats why can't they learn enchanting and farm the mats, or farm the mats on an alt that knows enchanting?

    It just seems silly that you want a profession that can use the items to get less then people that can't use the items.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2012-07-18 at 04:25 AM.
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  6. #546
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    i think d/e should be for enchanter only not anyone that just managed to land in a group with teh person(enchanter)

  7. #547
    The difference between the majority of professions and Enchanting is that they have a gathering profession that they start with. Herbs go to inscription and alchemy, skinning to leatherworking, and Mining to smiths, engineers and jewelcrafters. Enchanters get their mats from perfectly good items that are destroyed instead of vendors. Each group member gets just as much rights to the items as the disenchanter, the only thing the DE button does is cut out the middle man and save groups from selfish enchanters. Every non-needed item in a dungeon is not the enchanter's and they should not get exclusive rights to it.

    Personally I think disenchanting should move in line with tailoring, give everyone a disenchant button, but give enchanters slightly more mats per DE just like tailors getting slightly more (well maybe they get a LOT more) cloths per mob.

  8. #548
    I also wish d/e button was exclusive to Enchanters. I don't see any similar button to any other profession...Do you? Yeh, that's what I also think.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by FalinMor View Post
    Your response doesn't make any sense, and has nothing to do with my post.

    The fact of the matter is, Enchanting had a serious advantage over all the other crafting professions, giving Enchanters a total monopoly on the materials needed for enchants without requiring them to take a gathering profession. There was no other crafting profession that allowed a monopoly on materials held by the crafter. The disenchant button simply broke the monopoly, and brought it in line with the other crafting professions. It's as simple as that.
    With respect it has everything to do with your post. You stated a false reason for the D/E button being added. I corrected you.

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    early didn't know the Glyph market in WotLK then. As they were often high profit with the Scribe controlling the market in glyphs and materials because only they could produce inks. Any one that can kill can gather for Enchanting, just as they can for Tailoring. And Tailoring has a perk that gives tailors a bonus cloth roll on humanoids.
    Wrong on both counts.

    Scribes, even back in WoTLK, needed herbs in order to make inks. Where did they get the herbs? They were forced to either take Herbalism as their second profession, or rely on another person to get the herbs for them. Enchanting has no such restrictions. Even so, even if you're right about what scribes went through back in WoTLK (and you're clearly not), that has nothing to do with the state of the game now.

    There are two crafting professions in the game that can ply their trade without having to take a second profession or buy mats from someone else. They are Tailoring and Enchanting. Tailoring has always made up for this advantage by allowing everyone in the game to gather the materials for it without needing a profession at all. That's good. Enchanting, since the DE button, has SORT of put enchanting in the same position where it belongs, except with enchanting you're required to have an enchanter with you to take advantage of it. Tailors get no such consideration.

    As for "people can farm for enchanting mats", no, they can't. It's not like farming for cloth AT ALL, because there's no guarantee you'll get the mats you need from having an enchanter disenchant items on the spot, and there's no guarantee that a disenchanter will perform the disenchanting service free of charge. On my server at least, Enchanters have historically charged for the service.

    So, the only way that the situation is equivalent to tailoring is if you can guarantee that an Enchanter will do your disenchanting for free and on demand. Which is exactly what the DE button does. Which is exactly why it's fair.

    Enchanting has so many advantages over most other professions and so few disadvantages, it makes no sense that so many people are complaining about one little step that Blizzard has taken to try to level the playing field. It only makes sense in the context of greed and bias.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-19 at 10:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So a profession that obtains materials useful only to that profession from items gathered by someone else and one that has had a very profitable monopoly over crafted and materials related to that profession can't be compared to a profession being stated as the same thing? This Blind eye to everything to everything but enchanting is getting old. Heck scribes creating mysterious fortune cards can make a far greater profit then any enchanter can.

    It just seems people have it out for enchanting no matter how illogical their reasons are.
    Except you're wrong. Scribes have no monopoly over materials. They need herbs, which they have to take a profession to get, or get from someone else. So your "Scribes vs. Enchanters" comparison logically fails from TWO angles, not just the one he validly pointed out.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-19 at 10:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Th1ghsofSteel View Post
    With respect it has everything to do with your post. You stated a false reason for the D/E button being added. I corrected you.
    I didn't state a false reason for anything. The DE button is there to help balance out a profession imbalance. That is not the ONLY reason it's there, but it's one of them.

    And your "correction" wasn't correct. On my server, enchanters would RARELY DE for free at the end of the run. Most of them would either want payment, or simply didn't want to go through the trouble (and yes, it was kind of a pain to do, so I understand that). I would do it for free on my enchanter (not my main), but that's because I only went with friends.

    This community has proven over and over again that it simply doesn't have the decency to consistently do the right or fair thing without being forced to. That's why some people are so upset about the DE button.

  11. #551
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalinMor View Post
    Scribes, even back in WoTLK, needed herbs in order to make inks. Where did they get the herbs? They were forced to either take Herbalism as their second profession, or rely on another person to get the herbs for them. Enchanting has no such restrictions. Even so, even if you're right about what scribes went through back in WoTLK (and you're clearly not), that has nothing to do with the state of the game now.
    They still had a monopoly on the glyph market and on the ink market because they are the sole producers, so no I'm not wrong unless you turn a blind eye to anything but the faults of Enchanting. Enchanting has no restrictions? Enchanting has the exact same restrictions plus one. They can farm the items themselves, others can farm them for them, or they can by the items from the Auction House in order to disenchant.

    Enchanting still has all of the downsides of not being a gathering professions but there is no gathering profession required for it. Disenchanting isn't a gathering profession any more then Milling, Prospecting, Smelting, or Sewing is.


    Quote Originally Posted by FalinMor View Post
    As for "people can farm for enchanting mats", no, they can't. It's not like farming for cloth AT ALL, because there's no guarantee you'll get the mats you need from having an enchanter disenchant items on the spot, and there's no guarantee that a disenchanter will perform the disenchanting service free of charge. On my server at least, Enchanters have historically charged for the service.
    So because there isn't a 100% drop rate it can't be farmed? That is stupid logic. Plenty of things in the game are farmed that don't have a 100% drop rate. Also if you know what items have a chance at dropping what materials it is very easy to predict what you will get from disenchanting something. So you can get what you need on the spot.

    Besides your logic is thrown out the window when the item is Epic. Because there is a 100% drop chance of epic items from certain mobs and a 100% chance that you get only one type of enchanting material from the Epic item. Same thing with Rare items of a certain item level. Because lower item levels of Rare items will disenchant into a small shard rather then the full shard.

    And there is every guarantee an enchanter will perform it for free on the spot if you are in the group with them. But do you expect a scribe to mill for free? A Jeweler to prospect for free? A tailor to sew for free? A miner to smelt for free? There is not guarantee they won't ask for a tip. Yet I don't see you asking to get a share of those.

    Also why does an enchanter have to do it for free to be equal to tailoring? Does a tailor create bolts of cloth for you for free? You are right though that it does only make sense in the context of Greed and Bias because non-enchanters want a piece of the money without having to sacrifice one of their two profession slots.

    Quote Originally Posted by FalinMor View Post
    Except you're wrong. Scribes have no monopoly over materials. They need herbs, which they have to take a profession to get, or get from someone else. So your "Scribes vs. Enchanters" comparison logically fails from TWO angles, not just the one he validly pointed out.
    So scribes don't have a monopoly over inks? Who else can obtain and sell inks? Enchanters need something to get items as well but it isn't a profession. They need to kill a mob that has a chance at dropping an item. Which anyone can do so there isn't an enchanting gathering profession because everyone can gather for enchanters.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2012-07-19 at 05:29 PM.
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  12. #552
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    I dont know why this is still going on ... its obvious that only enchanters should benefit of their mats.

    Only lazy people would disagree.

    Blizzard is lazy.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    What's required from a Disenchanter to complete such a task?

    Nothing. At All.

    It's not like you have to go ahead go run over to a node, collect from it, find out how much you got, split the stacks, and trade it out. No. It's a streamlined STUPID SIMPLE system which allows loot to go elsewhere other than vendors.


    There is no reason why an Enchanter should be able to get a bonus or benefit to rolls, they already have the benefit of being able to disenchant any and all of their gear.


    Stop being selfish.

    -A Fellow Enchanter
    Actually, in Cataclysm enchanters DID have to do something in order to DE items. Many items were not able to be DE'd until you reached X points in Enchanting unlike the previous expansions where all you needed to do was train the next level of Enchanting and you could instantly DE anything. So yes, I did use my time, money, and materials to level up MY Enchanting so the ENTIRE group could benefit from MY profession. Every other "gathering" profession is not effectively forced to share whatever they skin, mine, herb, scavenge (cloth for tailoring) with the group.

    There's a large difference in competing with fellow gatherers and losing out to them on a mine or herb node out in the field, and losing out on a roll for DE mats to someone who may not even have the profession to begin with. It's absolute hell going through dungeon after dungeon while trying to level enchanting at the beginning of an expansion, and hardly winning any rolls to collect materials to level your profession because you're competing with enchanters and non-enchanters alike. There are random drops out in the world when killing mobs and quest items to DE (which I always end up doing personally), but there comes a point where you're just stuck and starving on materials to continue further in the leveling process. Usually it's when you have done every single quest out there in the new expansion which isn't hard to do within the first week. You could run 10 dungeons in a row and not win a damn thing all day, kill 200 mobs and maybe get 2 drops. That's different than any other gathering aspect.

    There are plenty of ways to improve the system:

    ~Make it an option to allow enchanters to switch on/off the ability for their profession to be used in a group setting.
    ~Possibly allow a bonus roll for those who are enchanters in the group over non-enchanters.
    ~Make it so that ALL gathering materials collected within a group are split among the members. So if you skin something at the end it tallies how much was collected during the run for each gathering profession and then can be either rolled off or just automatically split evenly.

    ~Keep the current DE system the way it is now, but regardless of who wins the roll (unless it's you, the enchanter) the enchanter automatically gets half (or in the case of it being 1 shard, it would be that each person gets a shard since you can't split that in half) of whatever was DE'd. In this system, say a non-enchanter wins the roll and the item breaks down into 5 dust, the person who won the roll keeps that 5 dust but the enchanters in the group ALSO get 2-3 dust. If an enchanter wins the roll then they get whatever amount of dust etc. was broken down like normal.
    Last edited by Melodi; 2012-07-19 at 05:50 PM.
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  14. #554
    Herald of the Titans Christan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccKep View Post
    You're comparing two stand-alone gathering professions to a secondary bonus of a crafting profession, that's what you call a fair comparision?
    last i checked tailors get bonus cloth off mobs other people loot...
    gathering...extra...cloth... (gathering proff rolled into a reg proff, same as you mentioned)

    the cloth is rolled for i assume?

    why does this happen for enchanters and not for tailors?

    hell extreme example is someone doing eng/skinning.

    they get guaranteed motes out of the skinner bags, plus extra volatiles from inside bag, plus(since dungeons / elite mobs) more skins than a reg trash mob from outside an instance... none of that is rolled on. (same thing for engineers, extra bonus's for em if it is eng skinner)

    if people feel skinners are getting an unfair advantage, they just don't loot, the skinner will loot everything he can and if a mob tagged for your loot had a green everyone can roll (though doing that is spiteful and wrong to do)

    same for tailors, don't loot and they can't get their extra cloth.

    do enchanters have an option???

    btw i only mentioned reg professions, not gathering.

    gathering proffs with how easy they are to level should be shared in instances in my personal opinion.

    if tailors engineers etc...don't have to share their extra loot, wth do enchanters have to?\

    eng can also *skin robots*
    BS can *skin* elementals (usually)

    none of that is rolled on, enchanters SHOULD NOT have to share their profession as long as other professions can escape having to do so.
    Last edited by Christan; 2012-07-19 at 06:38 PM.
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  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    T
    So scribes don't have a monopoly over inks? Who else can obtain and sell inks? Enchanters need something to get items as well but it isn't a profession. They need to kill a mob that has a chance at dropping an item. Which anyone can do so there isn't an enchanting gathering profession because everyone can gather for enchanters.
    Yet scribes can't even make ink without either buying herbs or taking a 2nd profession. If herbalism was rolled into inscription then you could compare them.

  16. #556
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenzaliv View Post
    Yet scribes can't even make ink without either buying herbs or taking a 2nd profession. If herbalism was rolled into inscription then you could compare them.
    Scribes can't make inks without herbs because Milling is not a gathering profession. Enchanters can't disenchant with out weapons and armor because Disenchant is not a gathering profession.

    Anyone can gather for enchanting without a profession. Only enchanters can turn the raw materials into something useful for enchanting. Disenchanting is not a gathering profession any more then milling, sewing, smelting, and prospecting are. They are abilities that turn gathered materials into something useful for that profession or others.
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  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Dethox View Post
    I also wish d/e button was exclusive to Enchanters. I don't see any similar button to any other profession...Do you? Yeh, that's what I also think.
    This is because enchanting is different to every other profession. Which is part of why they added the DE button in the first place. Enchanting is the most used lucrative and profitable profession in the game. Anything that crafts gear usually requires special materials(orbs and such) and their top items are rapidly outdated with each new patch. Engineers are really only useful at endgame due to scopes. Glyphs are learned once and always available after that. Jewelcrafting is a close second to enchanting except that due to anyone being able to take mining and sell ore the cost of non epic gems is pretty low, for a while they made great money from epic gems, but once those were more widely available they lose a lot of profitability as well. Enchanting is always relevant and highly profitable due to the ease of getting materials. Even if someone comes to you for an enchant, you should either be receiving a tip, or if your greedy(which you are if the de button is such an issue to you) you can charge whatever you want to do it. 500g+ for power torrent, people will pay cause that is the only good enchant if your a caster.

  18. #558
    I've seen this thread at least a thousand times. It just comes down to people who are for it and deem the other side selfish, and people who aren't for it and deem the other side selfish. Really, both sides are justified. Just give enchanters an option to opt out of it so they can shut up already.

  19. #559
    Stood in the Fire Steik's Avatar
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    Give enchanters a +roll on disenchant rolls.

  20. #560
    Leave the disenchant button, but when enchanters win give them a chance to proc extra (beyond the guild perk) the way tailors can proc extra cloth when mobs get looted.

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