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  1. #21
    1) Of course I like tricks but tanks are getting shit tricksed to them like MD's. MD for me is a low tool. It should only be used as a oh shit moment reaction.

    2) Carried by bad dps means DPS are not good enough to out-threat you in your low threat build hence you never experience the challenge.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vifire View Post
    1) Of course I like tricks but tanks are getting shit tricksed to them like MD's. MD for me is a low tool. It should only be used as a oh shit moment reaction.
    What do you mean by "...but tanks are getting shit tricksed to them like MD's"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vifire View Post
    2) Carried by bad dps means DPS are not good enough to out-threat you in your low threat build hence you never experience the challenge.
    Sounds more like you've got DPS that tunnel on their numbers. While you have the lion's share of threat management, DPS classes all have their own threat management tools and should utilize them as necessary. Having DPS out threat you isn't a challenge, it's a travesty, because it means that they aren't paying attention.
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  3. #23
    Well, hi again. i see many people are trying to understand my problem and help me about it. i really appreciate it. We are doing our progress with some pug players, we had some nice and fun group from real life friends before and many of them quit, the ones that keep playing are just doing pug with some friends from other guilds. anyway 6/8 hc kill is good number for us since we are not hardcore players
    for the CTC cap, i believe my problem is that i need more survivability at the moment. i was using Fire of the deep and indo pride before soulshifter hc. and i was ctc capped with stamina gems. but now after getting that soulshifter hc, i did some quick calculations to change 7x stamina gem with mastery and stamina gem will give me more stamina. i was wondering having that 98.14% CTC would be enough for spine hc? and yes i have Souldrinker(normal).
    for the dps tanking, i do understand your point but our healers are not that great at the moment so its some kind of other issue imo :/ wish we had better healers and i would go tank like that, would be more fun for me

    here is the trinkets i can use
    soulshifter hc
    indo pride
    spidersilk (normal)
    resolve of undying
    fire of the deep
    essence of the eternal flame.

    so i wonder using that soulshifter and indo pride and swapping stam gems with mastery+stam gems is better then now?i f i need to swap gems, which gems would be better to swap? and should i use souldrinker over that hand of morchok axe?

    thanks

  4. #24
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    I would use a Souldrinker normal over a heroic Hand of Morchok, but I don't think it makes a huge amount of difference. If it is a normal hand of morchok then definitely use the Souldrinker. I always favour the souldrinker for the heal, but the axe is viable too as it gives more stamina and effects your CTC which the sword won't. It is hard to quantify the effectiveness of the heal in terms of mastery and stamina, which is what the axe offers.

    No, 98.14% is not enough, get CTC. You must be CTC, especially if you're the blood tank, or you will get shredded. For Spine progression I would go for Soulshifter heroic (more stamina) and then Fire of the Deep as the dodge is good, however, it is not our true best in slot combination (or that's what a bunch of us think but as seen here there are conflicting views but just ignore that debate for now). Once you kill it a few times I wouldn't be too worried about using Fire of the Deep and would begin going for double stamina trinket like you would on all other fights. Sure you'd be over CTC for spine but the dodge proc is great and I'm sure you can cope with that.

    Resolve of the Undying is just a bad trinket, I wouldn't worry about it.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Resolve of the Undying is just a bad trinket, I wouldn't worry about it.
    Just curious here, as I haven't really gotten to gear my tank spec up (nor gotten a drop to replace resolve), but why is resolve a bad trinket in general for a pally tank? assuming they aren't ctc capped.

    Or is it just the general ease of reaching ctc cap with sufficient gear that devalues the trinket compared to other options?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    Just curious here, as I haven't really gotten to gear my tank spec up (nor gotten a drop to replace resolve), but why is resolve a bad trinket in general for a pally tank? assuming they aren't ctc capped.

    Or is it just the general ease of reaching ctc cap with sufficient gear that devalues the trinket compared to other options?
    Pretty much - 980 dodge or however it is, whilst it has near enough 100% uptime, dodge isn't as valuable a stat for CTC as mastery is due to diminishing returns as well. Fire of the deep is a good trinket, as is Indom, and soulshifter heroic (once you reach a certain gear level...)

    Compared to the others, it's just not that great. It's all relative really. A few % dodge or a few % more block - our block scales so hideously fast with mastery that it makes more sense to stack that instead and then move onto stamina. Obtaining CTC is so easy now, it's unbelievable. In near enough full BiS gear you are CTC with just reforging, and then putting 75stam in every socket and then using 2 stamina trinkets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    I dont care if they [gays] are allowed to donate [blood], but I think we should have an option to refuse gay blood if we need to receive blood.

  7. #27
    coolio, just wanted to be sure, now i just need some drops, using Fire and Resolve atm

  8. #28
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    I'd go as far to say that Veil of Lies from Hour of Twilight might be better than resolve - assuming you don't need the extra avoidance. Going by the fact that you said you're still gearing, I'll assume you need it ^^ Keep all old trinkets though, never get rid of them, one from Sindragosa 25hc came in handy on Yorsahj hc at the start of the tier anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    Also a vegetable is a person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    I dont care if they [gays] are allowed to donate [blood], but I think we should have an option to refuse gay blood if we need to receive blood.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Keep all old trinkets though, never get rid of them, one from Sindragosa 25hc came in handy on Yorsahj hc at the start of the tier anyway.
    I remember being called bad when I suggested that at the beginning of the tier - but it got us our first kill in the first week, so hey!

    The Veil of Lies is a very useful halfway trinket, but I'm not fond of it's proc rate.

  10. #30
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnderworldSoup View Post
    I remember being called bad when I suggested that at the beginning of the tier - but it got us our first kill in the first week, so hey!

    The Veil of Lies is a very useful halfway trinket, but I'm not fond of it's proc rate.
    Especially for tanks, keeping old trinkets is soooo useful if they offer something out of the ordinary - ie, an on use effect that isn't dodge or something. It only takes up your own bank slots so just do it, ignore the rest of them, is my opinion It's my "deadweight" and it helps me do my job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    Also a vegetable is a person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    I dont care if they [gays] are allowed to donate [blood], but I think we should have an option to refuse gay blood if we need to receive blood.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    I would use a Souldrinker normal over a heroic Hand of Morchok, but I don't think it makes a huge amount of difference. If it is a normal hand of morchok then definitely use the Souldrinker. I always favour the souldrinker for the heal, but the axe is viable too as it gives more stamina and effects your CTC which the sword won't. It is hard to quantify the effectiveness of the heal in terms of mastery and stamina, which is what the axe offers.

    No, 98.14% is not enough, get CTC. You must be CTC, especially if you're the blood tank, or you will get shredded. For Spine progression I would go for Soulshifter heroic (more stamina) and then Fire of the Deep as the dodge is good, however, it is not our true best in slot combination (or that's what a bunch of us think but as seen here there are conflicting views but just ignore that debate for now). Once you kill it a few times I wouldn't be too worried about using Fire of the Deep and would begin going for double stamina trinket like you would on all other fights. Sure you'd be over CTC for spine but the dodge proc is great and I'm sure you can cope with that.

    Resolve of the Undying is just a bad trinket, I wouldn't worry about it.

    i re-gem for CTC cap but i still cant reach the CTC, with souldrinker im at %98.66 no buff, no food, no flask.

    edit : fixed it with 50 mastery gems
    Last edited by soneriko; 2012-07-13 at 07:45 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    You're one of those people I would count amongst my "going for rankings" then to be honest, you already have your madness kills and loot from it, so you can afford to do that - OP is still 6/8heroic so needs all the help he can get for now at least, not because they are "bad" or anything stupid like that but because they haven't got the practice or the drill correct yet. What you have done is an option but it needs to be stressed that it is and option, and not the thing which has to be done.

    On a side note, you have Hc Souldrinker and only 1/2 in Reckoning That second point would make your damage and self healing go WHOOSH.
    No of course not.I've already done the entire thing with my current reforges.I was also thinking this as well but where to dump point from..Eternal glory?Self healing words of glory and then shield of the righteous is also a viable sollution (since most of my hopo go to WoGs because of Guarded by the light so any chance of maintaining my holy powers to do a finisher has helped me thus far).With only 10% proc chance (1 pt in Reckoning) reckoning still has an amazing uptime tbh.Yes my build is an option not something to follow but it has helped me as well get where I go Yes I'm all up for helping the OP (that's what we're doing here after all I was just showing my build.Maintain your ctc cap for spine but on madness you will need to go for hit and expertise or cataclysm will hit you out of nowhere.I'm just keeping my current reforges for the whole run instead of taking break times heading to orgrimmar reforging returning etc etc.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-15 at 01:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by soneriko View Post
    i re-gem for CTC cap but i still cant reach the CTC, with souldrinker im at %98.66 no buff, no food, no flask.

    edit : fixed it with 50 mastery gems
    Good job mate.Always equip epic gems in your BiS first (if your gold doesn't allow you to have every socket with epic gems) eg your back your relic and the rest.There's no point in stacking gems since you are already on a farm up to warmaster which should get you the 410s you need.Go for full epic gemming and it will get you to ctc with barely any effort (minus some reforges).Furthermore I just rechecked your armory you might want to go for Fine Lava Coral in red sockets (25 parry 25 mastery) instead of defender's shadow spinel.37 stamina helps but parry has diminishing returns and at your parry % you barely benefit from those points tbh but you will benefit more from the mastery they give
    Last edited by Plwmar; 2012-07-15 at 10:02 AM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by soneriko View Post
    i re-gem for CTC cap but i still cant reach the CTC, with souldrinker im at %98.66 no buff, no food, no flask.

    You need to reach CTC with all the buffs you will have while raiding. If you get CTC before all that stuff you're just wasting stats.

  14. #34
    Check unyieldingvalor.com under the ctc calc link to see how close you are to the ctc cap (by selecting the buffs you generally would have during raid times).Just login switch any trinkets or anything else you want logout refresh it relog in and so on

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by soneriko View Post
    here is the trinkets i can use
    soulshifter hc
    indo pride
    spidersilk (normal)
    resolve of undying
    fire of the deep
    essence of the eternal flame.
    I won't get in to the BiS slot debate...as...from my experience...trinkets are situational. I don't use any combo for every fight. So to me...there's BiF (Best in Fight ).
    I notice Mirror of Broken Images is not in your inventory. IMO is worth getting for this tier of raiding. Maybe not on spine but makes some of the earlier fights much easier.

  16. #36
    Definitely!!One of the best trinkets out there.Helps in yorsahj void bolts,zonnozz psychic drains (not so sure about ultraxxion's hour of twilight if it mitigates any of its dmg tbh haven't tried it any feedback on this?).

  17. #37
    Soulshifter vortex is shit for prot paladins. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by DistortionSleep View Post
    Soulshifter vortex is shit for prot paladins. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
    There comes a point when you should at very least consider using it, as MerinPally has said many times in the Paladin forums.

  19. #39
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DistortionSleep View Post
    Soulshifter vortex is shit for prot paladins. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
    Please stop beating this dead horse with no evidence behind you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the general consensus is that it is good at a certain point, good to the level of "It is our BiS" but then there is no true BiS due to fight mechanics, but as a general rule of thumb, it is our BiS - actually properly good tanks in good guilds won't be reading a guide or a thread like this on mmochampion looking for help, so we don't need to go into the finer points, just go with the general consensus which is that is is great as long as you are CTC without the proc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    Also a vegetable is a person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    I dont care if they [gays] are allowed to donate [blood], but I think we should have an option to refuse gay blood if we need to receive blood.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If he wanted help on the best way to maximize his dps then sure you would have said something useful - unfortunately for you he didn't, making the entirety of your wall of text redundant. Also if you were oh so good you'd realise that to gem the 458 mastery from Fire of the Deep for you to get CTC again by using Soulshifter Vortex instead, costs about 600 stamina if you replace 75 stamina gems and all that jazz, so it's actually a stamina increase to use 2 stamina trinkets and gem the mastery - and the only 2 stamina trinkets good enough for this are soulshifter and indom, the rest result in a loss.
    Math, for the win.

    Why people use mastery trinkets and gem for stamina when you end out with more by using the "oh-so-terrible" Soulshifter Vortex for stamina and gemming for mastery boggles the mind.

    If it's so bothersome to see a mastery trinket proc you won't use, pretend instead that the proc is "You /dance in place for 5 minutes, reveling in the fact that you have better stats than tanks not using this trinket."

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