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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    There are a number of times when we kill everything, and I literally have nothing to attack, so yes, my dps drops to 0 briefly for anywhere from 5-10 seconds. I pull about 27k.
    There's a difference between doing no dps between two waves and dropping to 0. No other dps on that fight dropped to 0 even though we all wait between waves. The reason that he drops to 0 dps is due to casting a Divine Hymn when the last Onslaught comes.

    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    I'd rather beat the boss, than top the charts.
    This isn't about topping the charts, it's about pulling your own weight. I'm not interested in carrying his dps or healing in Mists of Pandaria as well when encounters might need more healing/damage than nerfed Dragon Soul bosses.


    But i think i got a pretty good picture now anyways from all the replies and the confirmation i wanted of it not being a gear issue.

    - Not dotting all mobs that are up.
    - Low uptime on Shadow Word: Pain, Vampiric Touch and Devouring Plague.
    - Only 4 Shadow Word: Death throughout the whole fight even though he have 2 set bonus.
    - Only used Archangel 1 time at a 6 minutes fight.

    Thanks for the replies and feedback everyone. If anyone else have something to add, feel free to do so. Other than that, i got what i needed from this thread. Thanks again!

  2. #22
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    Blackhorn is an odd fight, and people say that dps should be this or that, but it also depends on the group makeup and how you do it.

    There are a number of times when we kill everything, and I literally have nothing to attack, so yes, my dps drops to 0 briefly for anywhere from 5-10 seconds. I pull about 27k. Notably, he doesn't seem to use Death a lot, which he should be with the 2pc.
    But if you read the first post, you would see that he did 15-20k when he was progressing the boss at 5% nerf. And during progress you actually wanna do DoTs on everything and leave people that can do high burst on the drakes as assigned on them because rather everything is at low % then 1 drake dying and the other being close to full hp.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    Just tossing it out there. Top dps is NOT always a priority, especially on Blackhorn. I could probably get higher dps than I do, however I would also risk not killing my assigned drake, not killing the sapper, etc. Keep this in mind.

    I'd rather beat the boss, than top the charts.
    Oh absolutely, but those two aren't mutually exclusive. The raid leader's concern was that the shadow priest wasn't pulling his weight, and I imagine that if assigned targets were dying quickly and painlessly this thread wouldn't have been made in the first place.

    High/low DPS varies depending on the circumstances and that class' strengths and weaknesses and should always be judged in that context, but my point was that Blackhorn plays to a shadow priest's strengths, so if anything their numbers should vary higher rather than lower. 15-20k seems like low DPS already, but especially so in a fight where you can easily cheese the meters for much, much, much higher. Even if you're not multiDoTing everything in existence just to pad the meters, it should be easy in that context to show you are pulling your weight.

    I wouldn't bat an eye if someone was doing low DPS but the fight was going smoothly but if things seemed fishy and I went to examine the parses and saw someone was doing vastly under what they should be capable of for that fight, I'd be concerned.


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  4. #24
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    First of all, your group comp doesn't really lend itself to a SPriest, you're missing a fair few buffs.

    However, that said, I'm at 399 iLvl (admittedly with Legendary), and I could pull nearly twice his DPS.

    His Devouring Plague uptime is damn near awful, his Pain and Touch uptimes aren't exactly much better either, considering there's SO much to do for the entire fight. EVERY single mob should have DoTs (Pain and Touch, DP on one target) on them at all times, his uptimes should be over 95% for this fight, because even IF he finds the time to freecast and get Spiking Rotations off, he would have his DoTs on other targets.

    His CD usage is also poor, as mentioned. Even if he doesn't find the time to freecast and get Spiking rotations off, AA empowers any Mind Blasts he gets off and Shadowfiend is dumb to leave on CD.

    Considering it's HC, 70% of Blackhorn's health (due to being able to multidot Goriona) is nothing near enough of an excuse to claim why his Mind Blast is top of his damage. Vampiric Touch should be, and by far, too. He used Devouring Plague 11 times during the entire fight. 24s debuff, 6 minute fight. Assuming he ONLY uses it when it drops off (so not even refreshing properly) he should have enough time for 15. Considering how often things will die considering your raid DPS and gear, he should actually be applying it even more. Not to mention if he's moving to Onslaught etc he should be spamming it and so forth.

    On your Ultraxion log (the proper one, not the botched one), his DPS still seems a little low. Considering how short the fight is for you guys and his gear, his DPS should be a bit higher, but it's not as bad there as on the Warmaster fight.

  5. #25
    Deleted
    If he has 410 shadow gear then yes his damage is low. His Ultraxion log is a bit below par sure, but his warmaster one is horrid. Tell him to go practice on the 3 dummies on top of org. If he cant get above 40k dps on 3 targets unbuffed/debuffed then he is just bad.

    OT, how has noone noticed that he uses insignia in his healing set-up.

  6. #26
    Deleted
    Sorry to say it, but he's doing preeeeeeeeeetty preeeeeeeetty bad.

    You can check his overall performance here:

    http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/eu/outland/yuuji/

    Bear in mind most of his logs are ranked below the 50th percentile, which means 50% players on that fight did more damage than him... Considering he has close to BiS gear, and most of the people logged do not, that's pretty horrific. Don't accept gear excuses, 99% of the time it's total crap.

    I'm not going to analyse logs for him. He needs to compare his WoL parses to other priests & see where he's going wrong. It's not just Warmaster he's doing bad, it's all bosses.

    - Check dot uptime
    - Check buff uptime
    - Check SW on CD below 25%
    - Check dot tick damage, and make sure you're refreshing dots at the start of procs (trinkets etc) and then again just before they run out
    - Check reforges
    - Check MS/MB rotation on SF, and check his MB damage compared to other priests to make sure he is using SF on CD.

    He has a lot of work to do, there are ridiculously huge improvements he can make.

  7. #27
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Halaberiel View Post
    Sorry to say it, but he's doing preeeeeeeeeetty preeeeeeeetty bad.

    You can check his overall performance here:

    http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/eu/outland/yuuji/

    Bear in mind most of his logs are ranked below the 50th percentile, which means 50% players on that fight did more damage than him... Considering he has close to BiS gear, and most of the people logged do not, that's pretty horrific. Don't accept gear excuses, 99% of the time it's total crap.

    I'm not going to analyse logs for him. He needs to compare his WoL parses to other priests & see where he's going wrong. It's not just Warmaster he's doing bad, it's all bosses.

    - Check dot uptime
    - Check buff uptime
    - Check SW on CD below 25%
    - Check dot tick damage, and make sure you're refreshing dots at the start of procs (trinkets etc) and then again just before they run out
    - Check reforges
    - Check MS/MB rotation on SF, and check his MB damage compared to other priests to make sure he is using SF on CD.

    He has a lot of work to do, there are ridiculously huge improvements he can make.

    This, basically. However, don't necessarily take the Morchok percentiles as 100% accurate. At higher levels the tanks keep the two bosses closer together so they are able to be multi-dotted. If you guys do this and he still pulls that poor DPS (32.6K peak) then he has a lot to improve on, considering his single target DPS alone is fairly mediocre.

  8. #28
    Deleted
    Firstly yeah, as a SP he has no excuse not topping the charts on that fight. As a comparison here's my last log. I did not do that good there, mainly 'cause I did not play for 2 weeks beforehand (don't even look at ultraxion, did it in healing gear and failed at fading light >_<'). Also my gear is way lower than his, cause it's my offspec.

    Now, lets try to understand what's wrong:

    Firstly he's 35 haste under one of the caps (unless he usually runs with DI, than I have no idea what's he doing with his haste), which is rather important on this fight, since it gives you more DMG while moving. And he does not even have normal version of WoU? He's trinkets are kinda bad for SP (or just way too old when it comes to NF). Other than that his gear and spec looks fine.

    Now, the logs itself - it looks really strange overall. Look, his DMG% looks ok-ish (even mind blast on first place is kinda close call, generally my logs have a very small difference between MB and VT on this fight), he does fail with DP a bit, probably he's just not used to spamming it every time he's moving. His CD's are bad true, but this is not a fight where that makes a huge difference, since you usually end up loosing 3-6 hits of the fiend anyway, due to targets dying so fast and the fact that you rarely get 15 seconds of free DPS without moving.

    Where it really get's interesting is when you go to damage by actor. Compare it to my log. Apart from obvious multi dotting as soon as boss comes down (I should not explain why you never should do that), he's overall damage is just way lower, yet overall % is about the same. Going back to damage by spell and start looking more closely: his every cast/tick counter is way lower (especially mind flay, I crit almost as much as he hits).

    Also look at mind spike use: 6 casts, all on Goriona. I'm not sure what rotation he's using but I get at very least 8 off every rotation, 10 if under BL. And I'm using a bit different rotation to most people. If he's using the /cancelaura macro than he should do 10 even without BL.

    All that combined leaves me with one and a half possible conclusions:

    Probably he's one of thouse people who are not exited by playing their class. He's not trying to push himself, either playing without focusing, on slack mode, or he's just slow from the nature. He's obviously not using his every possible moment do DPS, he's not spamming buttons to queue up spells right after another, he's missing GCDs.

    He's also taking so much extra damage: from standing in fire, from standing in charges (3!), from standing behind the tank...

    Listen to how he talks on voice chat, see if he's actually loving his class or not. Look for the competitive instinct - like trying to compete on the DPS with other people (if he does not care that he's being beaten by someone or that he's lowest on DPS, that's a bad sign), trying to compete with others even on trash pulls and calling combat rogues imba then is a good sign ^_^

    If you'll see that he's actually interested in playing, but is simply a bit slow, than start working on it. Make him run a random dungeon every day and tell him that he has to top all the meters if there are good players or do at least 40% of overall DMG if there are baddies. And he can't use shadowfiend at all during that time, dots only(it's actually harder than it sounds, 5 mans are a real bitch on dot's only, you really have to be on the top of your game). Also make him win at least 2 BG every day(even in PvE spec). Ask for a screenshot proof before every raid invite.

    That will either teach him to use every moment in his advantage or make him quit the game.

    But if you'll find out that he's just not very interested in the game/his char/generally playing, than it's harder. At this point the only thing you can do is talk to him directly. Ask what's exactly is not exciting for him. Heck, in the end it might even be you guys. He might just be in a wrong guild. There's no bigger downer than playing with people you don't care about. The main thing to watch out here is the way you conclude your talk: don't end in vague promises of trying to do better and you (or who ever is your recruitment officer) watching him. Tell him straight that he has to step up his game or step away from the game. Obviously mention that you, as a guild, will stand by him if he need help with getting better, but also stress that you won't just carry him.


    Wow, this grew bigger than I've expected... Anyway, hope something in this wall of text will actually help you.

  9. #29
    Deleted
    Last logs by me. (note they are 25-man, but fight time is similar and basic principles apply.)
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8992&e=9389

    >Low uptime on VT. I have 89.9%, he has 67.3%.
    >Same scenaro for SW:p
    >Lack of MF casts/ticks
    >Lack of usage of MB
    >Lack of usage of SW:D

    Overall just a pretty bad priest.

  10. #30
    He's doing bad, he have a worthless uptime on DP, probably isn't rolling dots on every target (get him to download dotimer or something) and he's realy bad at using shadow word death.

    Shadow word death on this fight is like beeing on godmode. You have multiple adds dying relatively fast so you should be able to get off about 3-4 hard-hitting (100k ish each) shadow word deaths per wave of adds + another 14 with the drake and warmaster himself in mind (yes I death the drake when she flies away for extra dps :>) and he did 4.

    Get him to learn multidotting and get him to be active, he just seems to stand and do nothing every 4th or 5th seccond, might he be a clicker who needs to keybind?

    By the way, your rogue is preforming realy bad to on that fight, just saing :>

    /Viani, Outland

    Edit:
    Looking through the logs I can see that your shadow does pretty bad dps. Even though he don't have DI he should be able to do more than 39k on ultra (which is he's best ever). Looking at Warlord etc and it's realy bad there to, he's doing 10k less dps than I did two months ago :/ Same thing on Yor'saj.

    /end of brag, sorry, had to compare with something :<
    Last edited by eErike; 2012-07-16 at 10:43 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by jobbly View Post
    OT, how has noone noticed that he uses insignia in his healing set-up.
    I'm not gonna touch the main subject since its been covered quite well.

    To the quoted poster, insignia, IMO, is a better trinket than seal of the seven signs for a disc priest, if one can manage its ICD effectively. SotSSa proc from healing means it probably proc when u dont need the massive haste. While with Insignia, by throwing a SW:P and DP prior to a heavy incoming damage phase, u will guarantee to have a mini-lust everytime u need it most, with 2min ICD of course.
    Last edited by Starko; 2012-07-17 at 10:07 AM.

  12. #32
    He should be around where the moomkin is. He has good gear (but terrible trinkets, honestly if he replaced the insignia with...just about anything else I bet thatwould help a little - the ICD on that thing is really long, even though its heroic I would be looking/simming another trinket). I'll bet the moonkin can give him some good advice if the shadow priest has a good attitude about it (if you're destroying the fight and the priest is defensive you might just want to back off).

    Some tricks: If you stand halfway down the stairs you can get a DOT or two on the big drake, then skedaddle over to the other side, get 5 stacks of evangelism up, and while the drakes cross the middle to drop the first set of melee adds, DOT up both drakes. When you come down to the deck of the skyfire, DOT up one of the melee adds then pop AA/SF on the other (preferably the one that the melee are working on the other mob should get your DOTs since he won't die as fast). You should start seeing a pattern with the drakes and when they show up. To get top DPS on this fight, find a place to stand (I like the left side facing forward closest to the bow) where you can get all of your DOTs up on both drakes as they fly over - you get free DPS while they fly around until they come back to start attacking the boat. Don't worry about MB except to get Empowered Shadows up - you want to get all your DOTs on both of those drakes before they fly away. Make sure to refresh those DOTs on the melee adds, and put up new DOTs when new adds come. Finally, when the drakes land to attack the skyfire, put DOTs on both of the drakes. Probably should be able to pop another AA/SF phase on either a drake when they land, or on a melee add (or both, pop fiend on the add, spam spike a drake).

    I think he might be taking the rotation a little too seriously. Yes, it is important to use MB as much as possible, but since your DPS window on the drakes is so small (and the DPET of your DOTs is so high) it is more important to get DOTs on the drakes on their flyby than it is to hit them with MB. You only usually have time for one or the other, so choose DOTs.

    He may not realize you can DOT up the drakes as they fly over the boat to drop the melee adds. /shrug just a thought.

    He needs to be aware of opportunities to use SW whenever possible. Being able to use your Execute on all the adds thanks to being ranged is a big advantage, and it gives a lot of mana back.

    If you do it right, this fight is crazy for multidotting (but also provides crazy DPS).
    Last edited by Felade; 2012-07-17 at 11:08 AM.

  13. #33
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Starko View Post
    I'm not gonna touch the main subject since its been covered quite well.

    To the quoted poster, insignia, IMO, is a better trinket than seal of the seven signs for a disc priest, if one can manage its ICD effectively. SotSSa proc from healing means it probably proc when u dont need the massive haste. While with Insignia, by throwing a SW:P and DP prior to a heavy incoming damage phase, u will guarantee to have a mini-lust everytime u need it most, with 2min ICD of course.
    Or Smiting. If you're about to go into a heavy damage phase and you see that it's off ICD, you can Smite/HF to get your 5 stacks of Evangelism, pop Archangel and have the Haste from Insignia.

  14. #34
    Deleted
    sorry but he is a low-Bob, if i see the logs. With his gear, he must do more dmg. He plays a multi-doting class, but dont multi doting. no comment! Kick him.

  15. #35
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    Overall damage in logs on all targets: low dps on all, even on drakes. But if you check these two...
    (in the following links goto buffs cast, under debuffs box)

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...3628&target=99
    The sp "multidotting" (select the vt/swp/dvp uptime, also dhymn and hymn of hope)

    Compared to the druid's (select sunfire, is, moonfire):
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3264&e=3628

    It comes down to: he is not multidotting everything at all times. Most of the time only 1 or 2 targets. Devouring plague is barely cast either.

    Here is a log from mine (even though slackmode, no DI etc, got stunned 8D)

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3757&e=4048
    (select the dots) Everytime the adds come its brightgreen targetting 4ish targets. he should aim for that
    ===================================
    Think OP got a good point what went wrong, so a tip for the sp in question:

    Just dot everything that flies by. VT,Dvp, swp as first one flies over (ignore the rider coming down), then target second drake and vt, swp. Then dot the goons on ground, 4 set nuke. If ya see ropes from harpoons start refreshing dots on both drakes (usually mblast or so to keep emp shadows up, then the goons again. Try to snipe the low hp ones for goodness. When sapper comes dot the drake dropping the tnt sapper, then drakes.

    If he wants to evaluate himself, goto details player-> buffs cast-> then click on # of said dots and spells. Best if its brightgreen (because then he has dots on 4 targets), very bad if its darkgreen (1 or 2).

    Oh he also completely ceased dps from 19:57:45 till 19:58:30 so thats almost a minute of doing absolutely nothing. He did cast divine hymn but that was at 19:57:59 till end of casting 19:58:07 but that still leaves 35 secs of doing nothing. No other healing spells were cast. Hymn of hope was cast when Goriona and that cow came down. The moonkin refreshed during those durations his dots as you can see.

    His performance in multitargets is really awkward and this is certainly not a gear issue.

  16. #36
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiematico View Post
    Just dot everything that flies by. VT,Dvp, swp as first one flies over (ignore the rider coming down), then target second drake and vt, swp. Then dot the goons on ground, 4 set nuke. If ya see ropes from harpoons start refreshing dots on both drakes (usually mblast or so to keep emp shadows up, then the goons again. Try to snipe the low hp ones for goodness. When sapper comes dot the drake dropping the tnt sapper, then drakes.
    This might increase dps but will in no way help kill the boss....

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    This might increase dps but will in no way help kill the boss....
    Well, if nothing is left alive the only targetable is the drake and sapper, and it might proc ya an orb for emp shadows (plus he can see it as a training to keep multidot switching) :P

  18. #38
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiematico View Post
    Well, if nothing is left alive the only targetable is the drake and sapper, and it might proc ya an orb for emp shadows (plus he can see it as a training to keep multidot switching) :P
    If he is going to train multidotting wouldn't adding a target a time be the best? Instead of going from 0 to 100.

  19. #39
    Deleted
    He cast 6 Mind Spikes 1 of which critted. He cast 24 Mind Blast 13 of which critted. This is the amount of MBs an spriest should do in about a fight of 2m40s. Of course we can be unlucky and have to move, or we have dispersion/hymns, and we have ES (small problem with 2pcT13) but it should be close to that number (= casting MB on CD). He should at least pop his fiend 2x in this fight. This results in at least 6 Mind Spikes per fiend, likely more more (I use 8, it depends a bit on your rotation you use with 4pcT13; this is details for hardcore raiding). I would also MS/MB on the sapper instead of DoTing it up. But before I'd nuke it I'd make sure my DoTs are fully up. I use all kind of target macros for the last 3 bosses. Your guildies probably use those too, and so should he.

    To be fair, you do not have to perform well now with 30% debuff (but better than this fellow). You can focus more on the tactics. I could certainly excuse someone doing a bit less DPS on Warmaster provided they perform well or better than rest on the tactics. On Warmaster your DPS depends on your target role, and also if he does dispersion/hymns (= DPS loss) and if the other DPS multiDoT during Goriona. I save my fiend for 2nd wave of adds (meaning I do not pop it at start at all) because I nuke down my drake while having other one DoTed up after which I DoT my drake and then do a dispersion. We do the dispersion without risk so I don't do any DPS for about 3 seconds there, more if there is a lot of fire on deck (bugs out sometimes). Since due to nerf and gear DoTs tick less long your DPS as DoT class goes down, and if other people DPS better your DPS goes down too as a DoT class (but this also counts for example for boomkin; I recommend comparing casters with casters due to composition/buff/debuffs). I also say you will beat the enrage timer anyway, without multiDoTing, so in P2 go fully focus on Goriona instead. I use fiend there again. This will lower the DPS of multiDoTers but it is more safe. But even if you take all these mentioned reasons (or excuses) into account he is doing TERRIBLE.

    Another tip: before combat you can already DoT the drakes as they fly over. Use a macro for that. Once the 1st drake is almost out of range, pop the macro again as the 2nd one is in range. DoT both, it is a huge DPS gain. I use DP here too, but not SW:P. With 2pcT13 your shadowy apparitions will bug out if you pop SW:P on the drakes. They will try to walk to one of the drakes. So instead I use a macro to put VT and DP on the drakes while they fly over and I use DP to gain stacks on my int trinket. I haven't theorycrafted if this is better DPS than simply ignoring your shadowy apparitions dancing around you doing nothing but it pisses me off so much they just and there. On Goriona it happens too btw, but you can solve it by putting one DoT on Warmaster. Depending on your composition you should also DoT the melee. If you are heavy on melee I would tell my ranged to focus on drakes instead though and accept their DPS is lower.

    Insignia isn't BiS; CotC and WoU are BiS but Insignia isn't bad; not an excuse! NF HC isn't bad either. I did not check the other fights/logs I did read other people's opinion about it from that I conclude I wouldn't give this fellow either of these trinkets though; I'd lootban him and put him on standby (and suggest he go to SW/Org and let him multiDoT some dummies). He'd probably pretty quickly get on eternal standby after which he'd ragequit and meanwhile I'd recruit a different spriest or ranged DPS. The ML who gave him Signet of Suturing should be fired. Because if his DP uptime is this low he is really a newbie as shadow priest PvE. Did he reroll recently or something or what?

    PS: Since his DPS is so shit you could let him glyph dispersion and catch every other big patch. Give him something useful to do.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-17 at 06:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Starko View Post
    I'm not gonna touch the main subject since its been covered quite well.

    To the quoted poster, insignia, IMO, is a better trinket than seal of the seven signs for a disc priest, if one can manage its ICD effectively. SotSSa proc from healing means it probably proc when u dont need the massive haste. While with Insignia, by throwing a SW:P and DP prior to a heavy incoming damage phase, u will guarantee to have a mini-lust everytime u need it most, with 2min ICD of course.
    Yeah what you say I agree with but that is true for every healer except hpala (for them it can proc I think with holy shock?). A shaman can spec into telluric currents, and a resto druid can pop tree + wrath, shrooms, or DoTs. All these healers can control the ICD (tho a miss sucks).

    For a disc priest who is atonement (which he is) this trinket would pop all the time nearly on CD so it is harder to control there but at least you know you have guaranteed hit with atonement spells. I am also atonement, I got the Insignia for my MS (shadow) because on some fights I prefer it over the BiS trinkets, and I just rather pass the healing trinket to someone who can use it. As atonement you can even use WoU if you manage to keep your stacks up this will give you good amount of mana back with rapture.

  20. #40
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    I will step up in his defense somewhat.

    He obviously has great gear. But anyone in a decent raiding guild can easily get carried through and have great gear. I started 3 1/2 years ago. I had absolutely no idea how to play. A Shadow Priest in one of our servers top raiding guilds took some time to explain some minor errors in my gear, gems, and chants. Then they gave me some pointers on multi dotting, told me about the better web sites for current info, got me into a few raids with them on Alt nights. I learned a lot. Am I a great Shadow Priest? Absolutely not. I do fairly well, I can keep up with people in better gear than my 395 iLvL, I think I know my class, but I am sure I could learn more.

    He obviously could use some one on one time with someone really good at the class. I know a few years ago we had a Mage that was ok, and had great gear. He spent 3 hours one night at the dummies with someone that really knew the class and explained the hows and whys of everything. The next time we did a raid he blew the doors off everyone by a lot.

    So before you come down hard on him and bench him. Maybe he just needs to spend a little time in vent at the dummies with someone pointing out things he could improve on. Seeing things happening first hand and having someone tell him what they are seeing can sometimes be a huge help.

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