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  1. #121
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    awesome post Exochaft! thank you!
    the most beautiful post I have ever read.. thank you Dr-1337 http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22624432

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post

    In closing, I'll offer a little bit of American history since it relates to the discussion at hand. When the US Constitution was being formed, there were mainly two sides to the discussion, the Federalists and Anti-Federalists. Some may automatically think these directly translate into Republican/Democrat, but that's actually not true as the current parties have evolved quite a bit over time. The Federalists wanted a weak, centralized government while leaving the bulk of the power to the States/citizens, and the Anti-Federalists wanted more of a confederacy of States with no central government. Notice something? Both sides were in agreement that the US did not want a big, centralized government holding the majority of power (like what the US has today). Unfortunately, in socialistic societies, the government must retain most, if not all, the power over the people... which is the exact same thing as oppression, the opposite of what the country was founded upon.
    That is incredibly inconvenient.

  3. #123
    Never thought I'd see the day MMO-Champ forums contained the names Plato and Hobbes in the same post.

    /salute good sir

  4. #124
    Before we try concepts of socialism on the national scale, can start somewhere small, say redistributing GPA scores on college campuses. On a 4.0 scale any people that score more then a 3.2gpa have the higher points given to those who are at the bottom of the gpa scale. How well do you think that this idea would go over with students? My hard work and effort would be given to another person who refuses to put in the same effort as I chose to do so that I can look better then lazy people just like them.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaibhan View Post
    Socialism infringes on our basic human right on the pursuit of happiness. We do need an overhaul of the system but not a replacement of the system imo. The problem with your post is that it's based entirely off of theory. And in theory it would be great.
    you could also say in theory socialism is horrible, if you were one of the people who had a great idea or a person that worked their ass off to be great at something. i dont agree with socialism personally, i think hard work and great minds deserve/earn what they get. the US is borderline socialist today anyways IMO. everyone always begs for the government to do something, instead of them doing anything at all to change it. now dont get me wrong, it is very nice to have a government that is helpful but i think our government spends too much wasting money on things they shouldnt, especially considering the problems we have here and the money we spend overseas.
    Last edited by jmacphee9; 2012-07-14 at 05:53 AM.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illitti View Post
    In capitalism, the one who "wins" is the person who can manipulate the market and "play money" the best. Who do you think earns more: a person who cleans toilets 16 hours a day or a person who fiddles with his stock portfolio that he got from being born to a rich parents? Who do you think SHOULD earn more? Who do you think contributes more to the success of the society?
    That is the worst analysis of capitalism iv ever seen. Not even joking, that is trash. First of all, I am currently studying business (I wanted to be a trader) and my parents ARE NOT RICH.

    The person cleaning the toilet didn't try as hard as I did to get into uni... why is he entitlement to my wealth and property?

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Wthrmn View Post
    Before we try concepts of socialism on the national scale, can start somewhere small, say redistributing GPA scores on college campuses. On a 4.0 scale any people that score more then a 3.2gpa have the higher points given to those who are at the bottom of the gpa scale. How well do you think that this idea would go over with students? My hard work and effort would be given to another person who refuses to put in the same effort as I chose to do so that I can look better then lazy people just like them.
    I will let you know that this does already happen in some US colleges/universities to some degree. While I was working on my BS, my school's Engineering Department had this rule about grades: The highest scoring student will have their score adjusted to a perfect score, and everyone else will have their raised up by the same amount. For example, suppose the highest score on an exam was 60%, that score was raised to 100% and the rest of the class had 40% added on to their scores.

    Now, what do you think happened?

    People who did well on exams were quickly hated by their classmates. Students felt they were cheated out higher grades because someone had the nerve to score better than them on their exam. In most cases, those high-scoring students were pressured into lowering their own scores so the rest of the students could receive good marks. The end result was most of the students not even trying to do well on exams, many not learning the material they were taught (obviously some did retain it regardless).

    One year, though, there were a couple of students who refused to do poorly on their exams (they were my friends, go figure). Sure, the students got mad at them, they were bullied to some degree, called haters/racists (never really understood this one, considering mostly everyone was Caucasian, made me laugh at the absurdity though)/<insert explicatives>/etc. Even enduring all this distress, guess what happened? Most of the students (not all) started actually trying learn and do well on exams. While the outcome of exams certainly wasn't high marks for everyone, a good portion of those students did end up passing their exams legitimately.

    Now, I ask just two question:
    Which engineering class do you think would've contributed more to their field: the engineers that were given high marks because someone else did the work for him, or the engineers who earned theirs (even if their mark wasn't especially high but passable)?
    Which environment benefited the engineering students themselves the most: the one where everyone expended the least amount of effort and were given their good marks, or those that had to earn their marks?

    Sometimes the best social experiments are the ones that are never intentional.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2012-07-14 at 06:31 AM.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  8. #128
    Imo?

    No, it wouldn't, but with how much scare tactics are going around everytime someone wants to do something that is remotely socialist, even if it is the best option for the country, they will shoot it down out of fear. Our current system is hardly working, the only problem is trying to get the people that throw their money around to hop on board and i don't see that happening, ever.
    If you must insist on using a non-sanctioned sitting apparatus, please consider the tensile strength
    of the materials present in the object in question in comparison to your own mass volumetric density.

    In other words, stop breaking shit with your fat ass.

  9. #129


    <3
    Mmmmmm.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by burninggundam16 View Post


    <3
    Words cannot sum how great this picture is. Been there, Seen that.

    Too bad most of these posters wanting or insisting for Marxist society, because they are pulling different ideas from Socialism and Communism, won't know what you have posted, let alone where to find it on the map.
    Last edited by Wthrmn; 2012-07-14 at 11:07 AM.

  11. #131
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wthrmn View Post
    Words cannot sum how great this picture is. Been there, Seen that.

    Too bad most of these posters wanting or insisting for Marxist society, because they are pulling different ideas from Socialism and Communism, won't know what you have posted, let alone where to find it on the map.
    What most posters will also not understand is that any government system is easily corruptible.

    While American government was set up to be hard to corrupt, it is something that is still possible to corrupt, and it is on the people to do this. What I think party loyalists on either side of the spectrum, Democrat or Republican, don't seem to realize, is just how corrupted even American government has become.

    In closing, I'll offer a little bit of American history since it relates to the discussion at hand. When the US Constitution was being formed, there were mainly two sides to the discussion, the Federalists and Anti-Federalists. Some may automatically think these directly translate into Republican/Democrat, but that's actually not true as the current parties have evolved quite a bit over time. The Federalists wanted a weak, centralized government while leaving the bulk of the power to the States/citizens, and the Anti-Federalists wanted more of a confederacy of States with no central government. Notice something? Both sides were in agreement that the US did not want a big, centralized government holding the majority of power (like what the US has today). Unfortunately, in socialistic societies, the government must retain most, if not all, the power over the people... which is the exact same thing as oppression, the opposite of what the country was founded upon.
    What kind of power lies with the people, when we are shown two candidates to vote upon, both of whom are exactly the same (but we are lead to believe they are different in some way) and that is more or less our accepted form of government.

    Freedoms have been taken away from us under the guise of security. Socialism is in America, and both parties are promoting it, and blind party loyalty on both sides is keeping people from seeing it.

    There are both good and bad sides to everything, and we're bordering on the corrupted side of socialism, when we'd really only delved into the beneficial sides before.
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2012-07-14 at 11:34 AM.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleros View Post
    What most posters will also not understand is that any government system is easily corruptible.

    While American government was set up to be hard to corrupt, it is something that is still possible to corrupt, and it is on the people to do this. What I think party loyalists on either side of the spectrum, Democrat or Republican, don't seem to realize, is just how corrupted even American government has become.



    What kind of power lies with the people, when we are shown two candidates to vote upon, both of whom are exactly the same (but we are lead to believe they are different in some way) and that is more or less our accepted form of government.

    Freedoms have been taken away from us under the guise of security. Socialism is in America, and both parties are promoting it, and blind party loyalty on both sides is keeping people from seeing it.
    What political party do you affiliate with? I would guess that you are an "Independent" or you are unaffiliated to any thing at all.

    The corruption you speak of only goes on for as long as the people buy into the "Cult of Victimology" being dependent on the government. I know how easy it is to be ignorant of this cult. It’s a cold, dark place. Enlightenment is a hard personal process that you have to figure out on your own. All is not lost, you gotta take it back.

    Yeah there are socialist ideas currently in America, and yes both parties promote those idea. There are still people on both sides who don't agree with those and fight to push these idealist back, but they are usually the ones who get demonized or scapegoated.

  13. #133
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    oh, socialism makes people equal alright... equally poor.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    oh, socialism makes people equal alright... equally poor.
    When no one has anything, everyone gets to be miserable. Now that's fair.

  15. #135
    i live in sweden, one of the worlds most socialistic countries and i dare to say that the majority of swedens inhabitants is far more happy than most other countries.

    saying things like "Socialism infringes on our basic human right" is just something beyond my imagination, especially when ur living in a country where a small percentage lives good lives and the rest is having a rly hard time.

    thanks to socialism ppl dont have to have 2-3 work just to feed their kids.
    thanks to socialism ppl can afford healthcare, instead of dying cuz u couldnt afford treatment for ur cancer, or ur childs cancer.
    thanks to socialism even unlucky ppl gets a chance to have somewhere to live and doesnt have to starve.

    i could go on, my point is just that "the basic human rights" mentioned before is rather irrelevant compared to what i just pointed out, and to disagree u have to be very cruel or selfish.

    and ppl have to L2tell the difference between socialism and communism, its 2012 ffs.


  16. #136
    Is there a truly socialized country in the world that has been a world leader among countries?

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by golds View Post
    if you enjoy mooching off others and contributing less to society, then yes
    It kind of spontaneously cracked me up looking at your avatar & signature and you talking something about contributing to the society.

  18. #138
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    and ppl have to L2tell the difference between socialism and communism, its 2012 ffs.
    Fox News likes to tell people that Socialism is EVIL and then goes on to explain how Socialism is... communism.

    The fact that people believe it and parrot it on these forums is... incredibly unfortunate, and incredibly telling about how both ignorant they are, and how willing they are to eat anything fed to them by their favorite politicians.

  19. #139
    In closing, I'll offer a little bit of American history since it relates to the discussion at hand. When the US Constitution was being formed, there were mainly two sides to the discussion, the Federalists and Anti-Federalists. Some may automatically think these directly translate into Republican/Democrat, but that's actually not true as the current parties have evolved quite a bit over time. The Federalists wanted a weak, centralized government while leaving the bulk of the power to the States/citizens, and the Anti-Federalists wanted more of a confederacy of States with no central government. Notice something? Both sides were in agreement that the US did not want a big, centralized government holding the majority of power (like what the US has today). Unfortunately, in socialistic societies, the government must retain most, if not all, the power over the people... which is the exact opposite of what the country was founded upon.
    I don't know exactly if you're advocating that the USA should remain loyal to its original goals. If so, that's stupid. Why would a country insist on being outdated? No country in europe is crusading against the "infidels" anymore, or waging war against their neighboors, yet that's how Europe was born. But no country is ruled by the Pope anymore. Same thing with the USA. A country that doesn't adapt to different situations and keep on going with their blind propaganda to support their ideologies instead of realizing that different times require different measures is doomed to fail, sooner or later.

    oh, socialism makes people equal alright... equally poor.
    Since when "middle-class" equals "poor"?



    Is there a truly socialized country in the world that has been a world leader among countries?
    Is there a 100% capitalist country in the world that has been a world leader among countries?
    Last edited by Knight Gil; 2012-07-14 at 12:23 PM.

  20. #140
    No, socialism is bad. Period.
    What's the incentive of going to college, if the end result isn't much better than not going? Socialism and communism do not breed entrepreneurship, therefore businesses and jobs suffer. So, ultimately, socialist countries become communist because governments have to take over everything.

    The only reason this conversation exists today is because we have a generation of pansies and people whe feel owed something.

    Life and your country does not owe you healthcare, a job, nothing. Wall street protesters don't want to work, they want to be given everything.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-14 at 07:34 AM ----------

    Is there a 100% capitalist country in the world that has been a world leader among countries?[/QUOTE]

    Uh, yes the USA is considered far and away the global leader. Period. Has been for about 50 years.

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