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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Shimitsu View Post
    While there is no WoW killer currently on the market, Blizzard is opening the door for someone to seize the hardcore gamer market. If another game can create a difficult raid-like environment that caters specifically to hardcore gamers, that will be the beginning of the end for WoW. These gamers are the backbone of the community; not the casuals.
    RIFT, fucking RIFT.

  2. #22
    I agree with whats wrong, but not for the same reasons...this guy only talks nostalgia. It's people like this dude who makes everybody think we only want the old system back for nostalgia.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebonj View Post
    Vanilla + TBC is a thing of the past. People seriously need to wake up. If you don't like Blizzards current raiding model, then stop raiding, or quit the game altogether. They're catering for 100% of their 10 million players these days, not the 1% special snowflakes who consider themselves "hardcore".


    The game is for the average consumer now, so Blizzard has to comply. If they do anything to focus on one small demographic, they risk alienating the rest of their paying subscribers, who, by the way, pay the same amount of money per month as the special snowflakes.
    why should I stop playing? I will play and have every right too.. did you even watch and accept the video on why he explains the current model to 100% is not as good a journey than if you dont see all the content..

    you moaned to blizzard and they changed the game for ya, but its time the real players took a stand for once and say to you newbs... look there is a better way

    the game can and could very well be good again

    but dont you say we should quit unsub ect ect

    1% is better than 100%
    100% done is boring and your actually loosing subscribers that the vanilla and BC and WOTLK gained

  4. #24
    Stood in the Fire zerocoolhack's Avatar
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    If all the expacs would have followed the vanilla/bc raid models they wouldnt even be close to 10million subs.

    The old raid models sucked get over it.

  5. #25
    High Overlord rokatoro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrossNgen View Post
    RIFT, fucking RIFT.
    We see how well that worked


  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelk View Post
    I agree. Too many people hold on to the past and won't embrace the present.

    And really? " Naxxramas is widely regarded as the best instance Blizzard ever released" He's actually the first person I've heard say that. There's also a difference between conten lasting 5 months and banging your head off the keyboard for 5 months until bosses die.
    The majority of people that did say that... that we're there for that are now gone for the same reason content is to easy. I Haven't been in a proper raiding guild since release of Wotlk and managed to get glory of the icercrown raider... In a PuG... In a god damn pug!

    I still play wow will always be a game I can enjoy but since the release of wotlk I can't find myself being dedicated... I don't need to be dedicated I can log on whenever i want join with some people I don't even know and ignore all social contact and still down dragonsoul heroic (granted only up to spine but Bladefist is dead... long dead).

    The problem is as i'v said... wow is no longer a game for dedicated players you get to see every raid without even trying. I frowned opon bad of justice items in TBC working your way through each raid was worth it... now if you start an expansion late you skip it... how many have leveled alts and ignored blackrock descent? Hmm? Didn't need to do it? 5mans drop better gear? thats the problem ¬_¬

    All the QQ ''I want to see that content'' eveitably becomes ''I Skiped that content'' Later on in an expansion. Removing items from Valor/justice and making them for upgrading items you've optained up to a certain point would fix everything! No new items jsut pure upgrading what you've optained and remvoe epics from 5mans...
    Last edited by Wannabetank; 2012-07-14 at 03:41 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by rokatoro View Post
    We see how well that worked
    We're not talking about unique MMOs here, we're talking about hard to the balls raids, and RIFT has a lot of those while adding new ones every 3-4 months.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by zerocoolhack View Post
    If all the expacs would have followed the vanilla/bc raid models they wouldnt even be close to 10million subs.

    The old raid models sucked get over it.
    actually the old raid models are the cause of so many players

    and the new raids are built from the way the old raids functioned

    so none of what you wrote makes any sense including the "sucked get over it part"

  9. #29
    Completely agree with several points, stuff like content ramp up, the journey/attunements, seeing people in awesome gear and wanting to be like them and not being in a rush to get into the latest raid if you were still progressing in the raids already out. I personally remember finishing AQ40 off before we even touched Naxx40.

    However! Its important to remember what was so bad about some of the old attunement, namely the BC ones. Where when you lost a few raiders you had to attune new people, which was a terrible idea really for an attunement quest line, requiring end boss kills in the previous raid.

    Todays WoW player base can't really handle how raids were back then. He makes spot on points at all the excuses people make.

    "I want to see the content"
    "but i don't have time"
    "I want the gear"

    ect ect. I don't personally care about any of those points but Blizzards recent stance on nerfing heroic raid modes, which are purposely designed to be challenging and hard is one more reason why people burn through content. I do agree with their [Blizzards] point however, people who aren't capable of clearing the content will just bang their heads against the wall and quit after a while. Obviously this isn't good for Blizzard. I'd wager more people would quit from that alone, than people quitting because the content isn't challenging.
    We are warriors, born from the light
    An army for freedom, defenders of life
    Warriors, euphoria will rise
    Returning from darkness we bury all lies

  10. #30

    PUG raider:

    Doesn't effect them too much. When the xpac first releases, PUGs would be rare, but eventually PUGs start coming up for the T1 content. This is basically how it already works with the current system. Since the T1 content would be comparable to normal mode of current raids (perhaps a little harder), PUGs would spring up at around the same time. There would not be a significant difference in amount of content seen for a PUG raider. Basically, PUGs just work through the T1 content instead of the hardest content, but they don't actually see less of Blizzard's work. But of course, for the reasons the video explains, these people will be MUCH more driven to experience more content, rather than if they have already killed the last boss. It's really okay for a raider only doing PUGs to not see the hardest tier. In fact, coming from an extremely casual raider, it really makes the game seem like such a greater entity, and keeps you playing, knowing that there is always more difficult things to experince.
    .
    PUGs would never get past the first tier unless it was severly nerfed or you were on a high pop server. Without easy access to gear through VP/PvP raids/new dungeons, there wouldnt be enough geared PUG players to fill out higher level raids especially if its more than 2 tiers.


    Casual Raider:
    Casual raiders benefit the most from multi-tier raiding. Essentially, they will progress through T1, just like they normally would. But there's that drive to get to the harder, more prestigious content, and the sense of adventure when you get there, just like the video describes. But furthermore, when you finish the first, T1 content, you can progress to entirely new content in the form of the shiny new T2 raid.
    .
    Casual raiders would probably be fine but it would take them much longer to get through the content. This might cause their casual guild to break up since some people arent dedicated enough to spend the amount of time to clear the content.

    Hardcore raider
    Hardcore raiders will see all of the content Blizzard produces anyway, so there isn't much change here. In theory, T2 should pose a real progression challenge to hardcore raiders, which it doesn't really do anymore. I understand that raiders are better than they used to be, but I still think it should be possible. Additionally, there's the reward of more prestige in all of your shiny T2 gear, which all of the other raiders admire and aspire to.
    .
    Hardcore raiders would be even worse off. Now they can clear 2 tiers of raiding in the first 2 months of the expansion and wait 8+ months for the next tier to be released only farming the 2nd tier raid. Blizzards timeline is 3 tiers per exp over 18 months(they wish) so each tier should last 6 months on average. The first tier is usually longer due to having more time to make more bosses at an exp launch with the 2nd tier shorter and 3rd longest since they have to make tier 1 for the next exp. So you would be looking at probably 10 months of 2 tiers released with the exp and 8 months for the last tier. Also it would take longer to release and exp if they had to develop twice as many raids.

    For hardcore progression they just need to make heroic raids more gear dependent. The raid should have to farm the easier bosses for weeks to meet the requirements for the harder ones.

    I think a tiered raiding structure without gear resets would be nice but not this way. Release each tier every few months along with some heroic dungeons that drop gear from the previous tier or a little lower. No valor gear but valor upgrade is ok. And require a clear of the previous tier as an atunement which can be done in LFR. Oh and LFR should have the same mechanics as normal. This will allow the PUGs to gear up and wouldnt affect the casuals because there is something in each tier geared toward them. Hardcore raiders would have raids that took longer to clear(or stretched them to the limit of what they have at the time) and would be occupied farming the current tier for a few months to prepare for the next tier.

    The only problem with the model right now is it promotes not playing until the end of the expansion where you can level quickly, gear up in a day, and clear every raid in the expansion the next day. You could play all of Cata in a week and then have nothing to do for 2 years until the next expansion end raid is released.

  11. #31
    What always makes me laugh about this is the people who push so hard for this, are those who are expecting to be ahead of the curve, and raiding the newest content as it's released. NOT those that would be stuck behind them trying to plough through past tiers to play catch-up, everyone says how much that would be enjoyable for them, smug in the knowledge it wouldn't be their problem anyway.

  12. #32
    The 2 Tiers works well. Part of the problem, or more, what causes the death of old tiers is the ilvl gap. Heck I remember back in Vanilla *old man voice* running MC/BWL while we were in Naxx for upgrades... namely perditions blade for my rogue.

    When the next Tiers gear is leaps and bounds ahead of the previous, and it's so easy to enter the current Tier, then the old one dies.

  13. #33
    I have very little patience for videos like this, this is entirely personal conjecture on the video creator's part--I mean, who even talks about naxx 60, let alone calls it "The raid instance every wow player talks about as the best in WoW", I couldn't get through more than half of the damn thing because it at that point it was "NAXX, NAXX, THE GAME IS BROKEN BECAUSE ITS NOT HARD LIKE NAXX"

    I'm making a law here, carve it in stone, Dia's 1 commandment of old wow raiders:

    WHENS'T THOU HEARETH THINE RAIDER CLAIM VETERANCY OF THE HIGHEST MEASURE AS MERIT FOR THEIR PERCEPTION OF WOW'S DECLINE, CAST THINE RAIDER OUT AND PROCLAIM: YOU'VE BEEN PLAYING THIS GAME FOR TOO LONG, DO SOMETHING ELSE.

    Because that's what this is, Raids were not better in vanilla/TBC, they didn't have nearly as interesting mechanics and therefor only difficult by virtue of an inexperienced community (And the need to constantly farm consumables, and obtuse/tedious attunement/gearing--which was no doubt fun to do with raider alts to say nothing of new players--but I digress).

    Simply put, we have dozens of websites built specifically for explaining how you gear up, how you fight a boss, and what the latest boss they've datamined that you'll be fighting in a future patch that it's all become formulaic. Blizzard isn't killing WoW, Blizzard's Community has gone through these motions so many times that what's even the point now? The discovery, the novelty, is all gone and our adventures are now day-to-day affairs.

    I mean, who even said SWTOR was going to be a WoW-killer that was on the Bioware marketing division? Nobody calls their game that, but the WoW community is quick to either ironically or unironically herald it as such before its release, why is that? Because a fair and vocal number of players want WoW dead, they want to go somewhere else.

    --As is with this entire discussion, my point of view is purely conjecture, but it gets really tiring when everybody points to difficulty as the sole issue when the world is more complicated than it ever being just "that one thing you don't like".

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Blizzard is shooting themselves in the foot with their current model. For the life of me I cannot understand why they choose to make their own content obsolete a couple months after its released. They could be getting a lot more life out of each raid.

    So what you want is for us to raid the same raid for months on end. Like we have to now. Like we had to in ICC. You liked that.

  15. #35
    the combination of LFR + Nerfs + 8 bosses +outgearing + only one raid + many months

    DS that you can do in 40min for what exactly? going to the next what? o that's right quest gear in MOP!

    or is it to stand around in city with everybody in the same gear

    ME CONFUSED BLIZZ BLIZZ BLIZZZZZZZZ!
    Last edited by WarJames; 2012-07-14 at 05:22 AM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by WarJames View Post
    or is it to stand around in city with everybody in the same gear

    ME CONFUSED BLIZZ BLIZZ BLIZZZZZZZZ!
    No, the problem is your paladins are unoriginal and they all 'mogged into the judgment tier. That can't be fixed without removing 'mogging altogether, sadly.

  17. #37
    (Guess I'll repost this from the last thread).

    This is going to be a long one so I might TL;DR at the end, or not, read something for once in your life.
    Also this will come off as "Get off my lawn" and "Kids these days" "Ranting bastard" I'm sorry but this is something I really need to get off my chest.

    I've been a long time player of MMOs, and I am sick and tired of constantly reading this nostalgia induced longing for the past, 'played since vanilla beta', attitude. You want your time well spent rewarding experiences back, I get it. Well I want my sense of death around every corner danger back. Allow me to explain.
    To set up the picture here let me list why WoW was extremely popular when it first came out, this is only to name a few key elements.

    1) Defined quests lines - A quest log. Yellow ! to get quest, Yellow ? to turn in quest, actual rewards(gear) that you get to choose from.
    2) Flight Paths - Fly to an area you have previously explored harm free (effectively a save point)
    3) Mob Aggro Reset and the Death Penalty - Run a few yards out and the dangerous mob you agrod will get tired of chasing you and go back to their spawn point. Died? Well just run back a few yards, harm free. Slight repair cost.
    4) Leveling and instanced dungeons - 1-60(70)(80) by yourself. Grouping in some/most cases is slower to level. Having your own private area to kill dungeon bosses.

    This might seem like a very basic list but it was mind blowing at the time. You have to understand that these mechanics were (for the most part) non existent before WoW. Allow me to turn back the clock and set the stage for what each of the above was like pre-WoW.


    Questing
    Excluding the few MMOs that didn't have questing when we did have it, it wasn't really direct nor did you have a log to let you know you even had started a quest. I remember the old days I had to go on the web (which was still forming at the time) to even learn about the available quests I even had before me. If I wanted to play it hard core I would have to talk to every NPC, and I mean talking in the literal. An NPC would spout out something like "We have a rat problem here around the city" I would have to type out "What Rats" or "Where are the Rats?" In order for the NPC to tell me where they are (which would be accepting the quest).

    Also when I complete this quest my reward was the act of killing them. Maybe the npc would get me some copper or silver, rarely any experience or armor. Now imagine a huge world, to which you can not press 'M' and navigate through the world, and you need to fine an NPC in a swamp in the middle of nowhere to start a quest line that you need for Epic Weapon.



    Flight Paths
    Wait, you are telling me there's an NPC in town that will take me anywhere I have previously traveled with no risk? You're bullshitting me. Back then you fucking walked to where you needed to go. Some games did have mounts, one in particular you had to wait a couple of weeks to get your license and even then you couldn't just wipe him out anywhere. You had to rent your mount at town (cost depended on how many people where logged in on the server) and had a time limit. So if you wanted to get somewhere you better go straight there and make no detours.

    Sure these games did have classes that could teleport (Like a mage can) you around the world, but it was to specific points on the continents. It wasn't to major capital cities, it was out in the middle of nowhere. Also the person you teleported you went with you as well, so you better hope they were going the same way you were going. This really leads into the next point.


    Mob Agro Reset
    You aggroed something you didn't want to? It can easily kill you? Tough shit. You better get your ass to a zone point unless you want to die. This made traveling dangerous and something you prepared for. Hugging the zone wall and hoping to make it out on the other side alive, scouting out a head so you could move yourself around a huge pack of mobs. This might not seem like a big deal but you have to understand the way death was back then compared to how it is now. Worse case scenario would to be alone and die.

    At that point you would have to wait for someone to pass by you, and send them a tell (you can not talk when dead, private messaging being the exception). If they couldn't rez you then they would have to /shout in the area for an available rezzer to come to you (in which they risked death too). You other option would to release and start back at your bind point. Imagine wiping in Dragon Soul and having to release to Stormwind and having to walk all the way back. No portals, no flying, walk. Also some games would be real nut busters and leave all your equipment on your corpse, so you would have to run back naked.

    This sad part is, this isn't even the worse part. You would lose experience as well. For some games that would mean hours of progress, due to one death, which meant from time to time you could actually de-level. Also if you were a gimped class you would have to wait a considerable amount of time to get an exp group (see next part about those, fun!). Can you imagine how I feel about people who complain about repair costs?


    Leveling
    Much different than it is today. You wouldn't level off quests, infact at a certain point you could no longer solo mobs because they would become to strong so you were forced to find an exp group sit in one spot and level. A group would consist of one Tank, Healer, some Damage Dealers (DPS), and one puller. Everyone but the puller would sit in one are, term used for this was a 'camp' while the puller (always a ranged class) would go out and find one mob to bring back to the camp to kill for experience. This was repeated till max level. So I was going to start addressing the video later but I want to address it on this certain point. I'm talking about the part where he talks about people lacking in skill these days, not having the motivation or need to increase in skill specifically. Which I do agree with, but it seems a little misguided.

    Although current normal difficulty raid content doesn't demand much of people, there is also a problem with people being able to solo their way to max level then to be forced into a group atmosphere. At no point did this person ever need to interact his class abilities with a group on the way to max. The whole time you only had to look after yourself. I feel this sets a bad example for the majority of players in WoW. Sure people do random dungeons now, but how often do people need to interact with one another and even if they do what are the odds of it being positive?

    To get back on track and to close off this time machine (echoey)INTO THE PAST!(echoey) when we wanted to kill bosses in dungeons we had to hope there wasn't a group already camping that boss. Dungeons were not instances, they were as opened as our urine infested public pools. When you killed the boss there was a small chance of him dropping equipment and an even smaller chance of it being worth while.



    So onto my point. The above is my 'vanilla WoW'. To me, that is my ideal MMO, sense of danger, leveling that took forever, and actually getting something worthwhile off a boss. To me that is endlessly rewarding. Do I want WoW to be that? Fuck yes! Do I really want WoW to be that, god damnit HELL no. Everything is always better with nostalgia glasses on, that's the way it is. You can't dwell on the past to the point that it angers you, it tears you up inside. I also went through a phase where I hated WoW because it ruined what MMOs were, it changed them forever. They would never go back to that old formula I loved. You have to understand that first and foremost it's a business. It isn't about fun or how challenging it is, it's all about how it pleases the majority of the people. It will never go back to the old way.

    So to address this video with what little energy I have left in me... With the 1% of people actually being able to see/defeat the raid bosses it really begs the question of, well how much of the population was actively raiding? Raiding wasn't all there was to do in that game, far from it. 1-60 was quite a grind and to even get the gear to get into those raids was even more of a grind. As I mentioned above with the new mechanics in the game people (myself included) were in awe at how great everything was. Hell we just played because it was a thousand times easier than any MMO we played before it, and to be clear I'm talking about the leveling aspect of the game not the raiding part of the game. Yes WoW raiding in the past compared to today was much harder, but you had things like class imbalances and the game not as streamlined as it is today making those parts of the game harder when they did not need to be.

    At the end of the day. I'm not a 16 year old with a 3month summer ahead of me to dump on an online video game. I don't want to spend forever and a year anymore. I'm tired of that old model, it was fun while it lasted but it is better now. If you wan't that hard core experience again, go find a private server and stop supporting something you don't like.

    TL;DR WoW brought an end to the real hardcore MMOs, it's main focus was to be an accessible MMO and has achieved that from launch till now.
    Last edited by Bboboo; 2012-07-14 at 05:38 AM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelk View Post
    They're still a huge barrier for new players. If I joined the game during 4.3 and wanted to raid DS but there were attunements in place I would have to find a group running BWD, BoT, To4W and FL just to do DS. I haven't seen pug for any of them in months, and no guild would take someone who didn't have experience in Dragon Soul at this point, never mind any other raid in cata.

    Attunements are fun if you are raiding throughout an expansion, but are too big a problem for new/returning players.
    Check out Openraid.us
    That site allows you to find people cross realm and run old raids. Account-wide attunements and openraid.us is the answer people, praise the lord!

  19. #39
    What Rats" or "Where are the Rats?" In order for the NPC to tell me where they are (which would be accepting the quest)

    lol space quest and other text based games ruled!

    and btw NERF inc are making bloody millions! MILLIONS!

    that was a good long post... good read on how much MMOs are "refined"

  20. #40
    Mechagnome PHOENIXZERO's Avatar
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    Yeah, there was nothing more awesome than having to repeatedly run people through shit so they could get to the new content and then having those people end up screwing over your guild and having to repeat that cycle over and over and over again until people were like "fuck it" and either quit or jumped ship, killing your guild. People bitch about running the current tier for six months including those pining for the "good ol'days" and think it would be awesome to HAVE TO run those goddamn tiers for over a year or longer to gear up new raiders or alts because there weren't other options. WoW's success has ZERO to do with how hard it was to raid or how hard it was to get into raids and all to do with the fact that Cataclysm's introductory five mans and T11 (which was the best tier of this expansion, no arguing that) was way out of whack with what a lot of people were use to at the end of Wrath along with being a fad that was at that point six years old and didn't have enough time adjust the decline STARTED at the end of Wrath because like every other point late into current content people got bored and took a break or quit, then Cataclysm happened and more people left and don't you dare say it was because Cataclysm started out more accessible than Wrath. It didn't help that LFD is filled and still is with some of the worst high strung pseudo elitist asshats and other scum of the community. When it comes to LFR it's been a blessing and a curse, it's great for those who do it from not being in a place to raid with a guild to see the content (though that is a double edged sword) and a curse because like LFD, it attracts the worst of the worst type of people.

    Anyway, you can take your attunements, your requiring to gear up through old tiers and all that crap and shove it where the sun don't shine along with your rose tinted glasses. All your "journey" was, was a grind that was nothing but an artificial barrier to give an illusion of content lasting longer. If you want that I'm sure there's a Korean MMO out there to cater to your interest. It has ZERO to do with any sort of journey bullshit and all to do with making you feel like a special snowflake, part of some "exclusive" club of super awesomeness by making sure those who don't have or want to spend the same amount of time as you playing a game.

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